Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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Hows it going? About a month and a half ago, a friend of mine gave me a free small block 350 engine which he had in his '65 chevy truck. Long story short, he blew a valve into a piston and a year and a half later, its now mine to play with . He pointed out that all the abuse he put it through would cause the cylinder walls to form a lip. Thats not the case with this engine since there barely is a lip. I had previously heard about those 010 blocks having extra nickel to strengthen them and immediately assumed mine was one of those blocks. Did some research on here and low and behold it is a 010 block. I've decided to build a 397 stroker out of this block with a Mini-Ram intake. First of all, can I even use this block for fuel injection applications? Is the block itself strong enough (or recommended) even with the extra amount of nickel added? Heres the rotating assembly for the stroker: http://competitionproducts.com/prodi...umber=RATP397F . This would go in my '89 GTA in the future after my rebuilt L98 retires so I'm not in any hurry on starting the build. I'll be saving up for this btw. Any advice or opinions are welcome.
L8r,
Phoenix
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The 010 block is probably the most common 4" bore casting. It was used for many years in many models and 3 different displacements. A 4 bolt main casting is normally more preferred over a 2 bolt main but a 2 bolt block can be studded to make it just as strong.
I don't think you want that 397 race rotating assembly in a factory block. First of all it's for a one piece rear main seal and the 010 block uses a 2 piece. The 3.875 stroke would need a lot of block clearancing for the rods and would probably require a small base circle camshaft. That kit is designed for an aftermarket block and is for a race engine.
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I see. Thanks for clearing that up Stephen. So I'm guessing a 383 kit wouldn't be recommended for this block either correct? I still want to go with the 397 stroker so I'll be saving up for this engine shortblock kit in that case: http://competitionproducts.com/prodi...mber=SBKTP397F. As for the cam, do those have to be custom grinded?
Alot of guys have done 396-408 setups on 350 blocks but you do get very thin on the waterjackets with all the grinding for crank clearance. Would not rev to high with those setups or run power adders but some guys have with good success.
With alot of clearancing you can run some block fill to help strengthen those areas. Just a half fill or so.
I dont think you have much to gain with a 396 over a 383 however. 3.75 cranks fit good in 350 blocks. I'd go 383 as they make alot of kits for 2pc blocks these days.
But if your heart is set on 397, you'll have to find a good 3.875 crank, and a rod/piston combo that will work. i'm guessing 5.85 rods and 1.21"-ish CH piston? I'm sure they make those. I wouldnt want to go with a 6" rod and a short 1.06" piston... thats getting abit thin but a 383 with 6" rods is 1.125, not all that much taller.
383, block fill to 1/2, 6 inch rods (olds diesel rods can be fitted) and a good top end will make a killer engine. This can be done with OEM parts (except the pistons and rings) and a little machine work. And at 383 you still have lots of cylinder wall meat to work with.
The two bolt blocks are actually stronger as there is more meat left in the webbing.....or so I've read.
I haven't built many 397s, because at that point, you may as well go on to a 408. I've done about a dozen 408 SBCs from production 350 blocks, and there really isn't any problem with doing it. I do put filler in the water jackets, but only about 1/2" deep from the bottom, not 1/2" the other way, like gicata said. Of those 408s, only one has failed so far, a broken valvespring led to a smashed piston, and so on. The way to tell the blocks with high nickel and high tin, is by 010 and 020 both being cast under the timing cover. Be aware I have found a 2-bolt-main 10/20 block, they do exist.
Splayed 4 bolt main cap converted 2-bolt main block is suppose to be stronger than regular 4 bolt main blocks, so i guess it wouldnt be a bad idea to find either 2 bolt or 4 bolt.
Factory 4 bolt style caps should be more than enough for what you plan. I ran over 600 hp in my 383 with nitrous just fine with just regular 4 bolt caps on a 1 piece block which suppose to be abit weaker than older 2pc blocks
Right on! I was going to go with that 397 stroker shortblock kit posted in my 3rd post but I figured I'll probably never come across another free block again, much less a 010 block. I'll be going with the 383! Quick question, there are also 385 kits available, is it worth purchasing one for the 2 extra cubes? I'd like for it to be fuel injected (not a carb fan) and add a mini-ram. I know I'll have to purchase a mechanical fuel pump block off plate since I won't be using one so is that all I need to do to keep it FI? The block is a 2-piece 4-bolt main btw.Thanks for the input guys .
I'd keep it a 383 to keep bores as thick as possible. 385 is bored another .010" over and really doesnt give you anything.. unless that block is already bored 4.030 and needs cleaned up so another .01 will give 4.040" bore for 385"
How about a 388 stroker (thicker wall bores than a 397)? I am concerned about bore thickness but not too much since I didn't pay for the block.
Thanks,
Phoenix
A 388 is .060 over, few block will sonic check very well at this level, just fyi. The cost and power production of 383's is hard to argue with these days, the only time youll need extra cubes is in a race motor or a max performance street motor. We have a guy here with a 397 Lt1 and one with a 383 Lt1, both of them run almost identical times despite the 14 cubes.
....the only time youll need extra cubes is in a race motor or a max performance street motor.
Now that you mentioned "max performance street motor", thats pretty much the 'plan' I have for this block. What is sonic check? does that mean to check for cracks . Btw, a little more history on the block itself, my friend pulled it from a '77 caprice estate wagon (mannn are they ugly ). Casting # is 3970010 with "35" below it then followed by H21 and "WR" below that. On the driver's side rear of the block theres a series of numbers that read
010
020
I77
I've heard of those particular nickel and tin numbers bieng located below the timing cover and since I didn't find them there I thought for a second that it wasn't a high nickel and tin block until I found them located elsewhere. When I decoded the numbers, I think the block was cast molded on August 2 of either 61 or '71, leaning towards '71 since its from a '77 caprice. Thanks again for the info guys.
I dont even think there is an advantage with 388 over 383 for max effort motors... thinner bores will probly lead to some bore out of round/flexing and probly cost power, albeit very small amounts
When i said max effort street, i meant a motor that typically sees more track time then street time, but is still barely drivable on the street(huge cam, single plane, huge stall). Personally, i dont mind driving a huge cammed car around, the motor hat was in my car when i bought it had a stout cam (305 with a 292h). The guy i bought it from had the bigger is better mentality when it cam to his cam pick. Back to tpoic though, Orr is correct, without at least a half fill with hardblock the extra cubes could actually hurt, although this may only be an issue at higher rpms. Personally i believe the 383 is hard to beat, cheap and it still leaves room to go .040/.060 over if you ever have an issue and drop a valve etc. Sonic checking is where the literally use a device that bounces soundwaves through the liner in the block to test its thickness. Most stock casting 350's have very little material left after going .060 over to keep the block stable, this can lead to cracked cylinders and other issues. I would stick with the 383 to leave room for error and have a little bit of a safe margin on the thickness of the liner. They aren't slouches at all, IIRC Orr ran close to 400rwhp NA with a decent but not huge roller cam.
.... I think the block was cast molded on August 2 of either 61 or '71, leaning towards '71 since its from a '77 caprice. Thanks again for the info guys.
L8r,
Phoenix
For some reason I felt that information about the block wasn't right. Through a bit more research and locating the 'correct' locations of the numbers, I found the block itself was molded on July 8, 1977. According to the engine I.D. (and partial VIN information stamped on '70+ blocks), the caprice received this 350 engine on July 14, 1977 at the plant in St. Louis, MO. I measured the cylinder bores with my micrometer and measured to 4.020", still a true 350 correct?
They aren't slouches at all, IIRC Orr ran close to 400rwhp NA with a decent but not huge roller cam.
Dyno showed 392whp thru automatic trans with the motor over 205 degrees coolant temp on 10th pull in near 90 degree shop air. Very heat soaked. Probly 400+whp cold
Cam wasnt huge at all, just 230 deg on intake on 109 lsa
When i said max effort street, i meant a motor that typically sees more track time then street time, but is still barely drivable on the street(huge cam, single plane, huge stall). Personally, i dont mind driving a huge cammed car around, the motor hat was in my car when i bought it had a stout cam (305 with a 292h). The guy i bought it from had the bigger is better mentality when it cam to his cam pick. Back to tpoic though, Orr is correct, without at least a half fill with hardblock the extra cubes could actually hurt, although this may only be an issue at higher rpms. Personally i believe the 383 is hard to beat, cheap and it still leaves room to go .040/.060 over if you ever have an issue and drop a valve etc. Sonic checking is where the literally use a device that bounces soundwaves through the liner in the block to test its thickness. Most stock casting 350's have very little material left after going .060 over to keep the block stable, this can lead to cracked cylinders and other issues. I would stick with the 383 to leave room for error and have a little bit of a safe margin on the thickness of the liner. They aren't slouches at all, IIRC Orr ran close to 400rwhp NA with a decent but not huge roller cam.
I see. So in other words 383 is as streetable as you can get? Sorry I didn't mention this before but I'm shooting for 550+ HP from this block if possible. So thats what sonic testing is, thanks cg-onesic89. I'm not going with the 397 any longer since the walls will become too thin. I'm still debating on the 383 or 388 but leaning towards the 383 since the 388 seems like overkill for daily driver use even with the 5 extra cubes.
For the most part its the better bang for the buck, while still having a margin of safety. 550 is easily done with a nice top end on a 383. If its carbed, id say a decent sized solid roller, 24x/25x range would be more then enough and still somewhat streetable for the average joe. Top it off with AFR 195 Competition Heads and a single plane and you should easily break the 550 crank Hp goal, albeit this is more or less going to want to be run at WOT or nothing. A build like Orr's with a custom specs hydraulic roller with a single plane and the AFR 195 comps would probably net you damn close to 500 crank HP with a similar cam as his was.
For the most part its the better bang for the buck, while still having a margin of safety. 550 is easily done with a nice top end on a 383. If its carbed, id say a decent sized solid roller, 24x/25x range would be more then enough and still somewhat streetable for the average joe. Top it off with AFR 195 Competition Heads and a single plane and you should easily break the 550 crank Hp goal, albeit this is more or less going to want to be run at WOT or nothing. A build like Orr's with a custom specs hydraulic roller with a single plane and the AFR 195 comps would probably net you damn close to 500 crank HP with a similar cam as his was.
Ok 383 it is! I would like for it to be a fuel injected motor with a Mini-Ram, do you know if this particular intake will fit my '77 block? or if it can even be made a fuel injected motor? Any recommendations on a 383 assembly? or should I choose each piece seperately? (which I would need help on btw). Thanks again for the information
Should fit just fine... intake depends on the heads you run. AFR's can be run both ways i think, so the miniram will fit those.
you have a non roller valvetrain block so if you want a roller cam you need a retrofit setup with retrofit lifters which are much more money than stock style lifters. With that being the case i'd go with solid roller lifters because they arent much more money than retrofit hydr. rollers. That will make a nasty motor. Dont have to go big on the cam as solids make good power due to aggressive ramps and big lift for the same durations.
Just get a strong assembly, good forged crank/rods/pistons. 6" rods for better higher rpm performance. Should easily make 500hp with good heads and miniram
My buddy's 406 miniram with a fairly mild 242/242 solid roller was running high 10's at over 126mph on motor in full weight trans am through 3500 or so stall TH350 trans. Now 11.0's at near 127 with a soft launch on a T56 tranny in a 94 trans am. Power can easily be made on solid rollers and good heads
The AFR 195s are available with both patterns but the 210s are not. The miniram is available with both pre 86 and post 86 patterns as well as vortec. The 210s are nice heads but i personally think that is a bit much on a street oriented sbc under 400ci. The miniram is a great piece, but IMO the same if not better power can be had with a single plane efi setup without having distribution issues common to the miniram and lt1 style intakes. Another bonus is that you can get the intake, rails and TB for a single plane for under a grand, where the miniram starts at a grand and goes from there. What efi system are you planning to run on this thing? 165 or 7730? aftermarket dfi?
If you got the money the competition 195's are best head out there...but also only available in 1 bolt pattern since its based off the 210 castings. Street 195's are a solid choice tho
. He pointed out that all the abuse he put it through would cause the cylinder walls to form a lip. Thats not the case with this engine since there barely is a lip. I had previously heard about those 010 blocks having extra nickel to strengthen them and immediately assumed mine was one of those blocks. Did some research on here and low and behold it is a 010 block. I've decided to build a 397 stroker out of this block with a Mini-Ram intake. First of all, can I even use this block for fuel injection applications? Is the block itself strong enough (or recommended) even with the extra amount of nickel added? Heres the rotating assembly for the stroker: 
"I'm not the shooter, I'm the bullet b%$#@" 
.
