Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
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Hi everyone! First post on this forum here... I have been reading through posts here for a few weeks and getting ready to aquire my first Camaro. I fell in love with the 3rd gen after I test drove a 92 with a 350 swap at a used car lot.
Well tonight I found the perfect car! It is an 88 (non iroc) roller with 72k on the clock... brand new tires and brakes. I was AMAZED when I got there. Interior is near flawless (no rips or cracks anywhere) Body is straight (all panels aligned) NO rust to be found anywhere. (I was extremely suprised) The car looks like I would have expected to see it had the year now been 1990. The best part about it is that is only $600 dollars. It had a 305 in it but had a major radiator problem and the engine blew.
My daily driver now is a Mazda 3 which I did the basics... Springs, Wheels, Intake exhaust, advanced timing etc, but most of my experience comes from working on cars which I flip with my friends. We just completed an engine swap in a 95 audi a6. The best part about all this is we rented a large 2 car garage for short money to work on cars in the winter (one bay which will belong to the 88 cammy.
The plan is to rebuild a 350 (with carb) this winter and have the car ready for spring. So this thread will be a documenting the build. The car is being brought to the garage on friday and I will have plenty of pics. This should a good adventure for me. I cant seem to stick with one thing... From working as a luthier to building guitars, computers and R/c planes and cars... I am hoping this post will keep me motivated to work on the cammy each day.
Tranny will be the basic 700R4 with shift kit.
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Last edited by 68Strat; 10-21-2009 at 11:04 PM.
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Thanks for the welcome! I don't think I have ever been this excited to work on a car... especially one so nice for $$$. The car has the two tone paint which is actually in great shape.
Heres a pic from the ad (doesn't do the car justice at all)
The car we are starting with is in remarkable shape. We want to keep the look clean with big HP under the hood. We are prepared to scrounge and work hard hours on the car with updates every couple of days.
Welcome to TGO! We'll all be here standing behind you, to help however we can.
One word of caution - the 3rd Gen bug bites hard! I started 5 years ago with a 1990 RS 305 TBI that ran fine for $500. When I bought it, it was just another car to have around - couldn't complain at a $500 beater ride. I think my first mistake was finding this site! I got bit hard, and now I'm obsessed in a never ending saga of Camaro!
5 years later, I'm into a 1992 RS ... and my wallet is lighter by about $12k!
Welcome to TGO! We'll all be here standing behind you, to help however we can.
One word of caution - the 3rd Gen bug bites hard! I started 5 years ago with a 1990 RS 305 TBI that ran fine for $500. When I bought it, it was just another car to have around - couldn't complain at a $500 beater ride. I think my first mistake was finding this site! I got bit hard, and now I'm obsessed in a never ending saga of Camaro!
5 years later, I'm into a 1992 RS ... and my wallet is lighter by about $12k!
So let it be known - YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!!!!
HAHA thanks for the welcome!
Ohhh believe me, I have been trying to prepare! I am excited like an 8 year old would get over something... Like I have trouble sleeping at night cause I see 3rd gens driving around while I'm half asleep.
I am sure I will need a ton of help and thank you again for the warm welcome.
My first question is what to do with the stock wiring harness and such?
The 350 will have a carb of course and I believe the stock 305 had the TBI. I am not exactly sure what I will be dealing with as towing of the car has been delayed a few days.
BTW thank you for changing the thread title! much appreciated and kudos to the mods.
Also the guy who sold it to me is throwing in a free 305 with under 80k miles as well... What should I do with that? hmm
Check out the budget 250 tbi build in the tbo forum.
Uses a vortec 350.
That Tbi set up will go on your 350 with some improvements can be made to handle more hp.
Snoop around and enjoy, I got a 350 (2 of em) ready to pop in mine bought it off a friend and its been done by a pro balanced blue printed yada yada yada and has around 8000 km on it and got it for a grand. It will be TBI'ed
Check out the budget 250 tbi build in the tbo forum.
Uses a vortec 350.
That Tbi set up will go on your 350 with some improvements can be made to handle more hp.
Snoop around and enjoy, I got a 350 (2 of em) ready to pop in mine bought it off a friend and its been done by a pro balanced blue printed yada yada yada and has around 8000 km on it and got it for a grand. It will be TBI'ed
Will have to look into that... Thanks!
heres a pic of my friend Josh (the other big guy) and the Camaro which was taken to our garage via flat bed.
Thanks for the welcome! I have some exciting news... I just seem to be getting lucky over and over again when it comes to this project. This evening I scored a free 350 out of a 74 Monte Carlo with 73k on it... I called the guy (who was asking $100) and he says I can take it if I could get it right away, which I did. I am going to need to start figuring out what will go into this motor and I will need a great deal of help!
Total cost so far:
Car (new tires)+ 305:$600
Tow: $145
350: Free
Total = $745
The car needs brake lines which will be done this weekend.
Today I am picking up a $20 book on rebuilding this engine for performance. I have never rebuilt a full sized car engine before, but have worked with many nitro engines (2 and 4 stroke for my planes) as well as 2 cycle weedeaters and 4 cycle lawnmowers.
For me nuts and bolts have always come easy... I have looked over what needs to be done and this should be a good learning experience. I build R/C planes from scratch (my own designs) and also build guitars and the engine rebuild will require a lot less guess work than those I believe.
Welcome to the addiction. Love the light blue/silver paint, one of my favorites.
The 74 block you got is a 2 peice rear main non roller block. So if you are going to cam it you are going to be looking for Hydraulic flat tappet cams or a retrofit kit to put a roller cam in it. Since you said budget I'd stick with the flat tappet they are cheaper. Look at the block part number, IIRC if the last 3 digits are 010 you got the High performance block and they are supposed to be tougher blocks.
Welcome to the addiction. Love the light blue/silver paint, one of my favorites.
The 74 block you got is a 2 peice rear main non roller block. So if you are going to cam it you are going to be looking for Hydraulic flat tappet cams or a retrofit kit to put a roller cam in it. Since you said budget I'd stick with the flat tappet they are cheaper. Look at the block part number, IIRC if the last 3 digits are 010 you got the High performance block and they are supposed to be tougher blocks.
Excellent info thanks! I'll be able to take a look at the part number later today.
A 010 block is not necessarily "high performance". It was the run-of-the-mill 4" bore block casting used from '69 to '80. It came in many different forms - 302, 327, 350, 2-bolt, 4-bolt, cars, trucks, industrial - and a few (very, very few) were "high performance".
The one you have is a low-po 2-bbl. Unless you want a 135 HP wonder, you need to get rid of the carb, intake, heads, and cam. While you're at it, get a large-cap coil-in-cap HEI vacuum/mechanical advance distributor. You might be able to find a restorer on eBay looking for that old points distributor, but I doubt it, but you don't want to use it in your car one way or the other.
Even if the engine has 73k miles on it, it may still be "worn out" (could also be 173k miles). Engine oils and piston rings weren't all that good in those days, to say nothing of the plethora of casting and machining issues during those years. Low mileage vehicles were often only driven on short trips to the grocery store, and oil changes neglected. You might be able to do a compression check on it (you'll need to mount a starter on it, pull the spark plugs, hold the throttle and choke open while you turn the engine over). It would be easy enough to pull the valve covers - and intake since you probably don't want to keep it, anyway - and see how much crude has built up under there.
You may have a good enough short block so that heads, cam, intake, and carb would get it running decent enough.
Common problems with those blocks were lifter bores mis-machined (didn't properly align the lifters with the cam lobes), and starter mount bolt holes mis-located.
Assuming this motor is decently machined and the cylinder walls are in decent condition what kind of ratings would I see with upgraded heads, 4 barrel carb, intake and cam? Of course all the seals are going to replaced with a rebuild kit... But on a budget I can probably find a bunch of these parts locally from unfinished projects.
I think if u got heads rebuilt + shaved to get a larger compression ratio with a bigger cam, intake + carb ur looking at 300+ hp if the engine isn't tired and worn. U probably get heads done at shop for $225-250 if used same valves ($30-40 extra for new valves?? not quite sure) If u shoped around enough u might get by doing this engine for less than $500 (depending on how many assesories u have)
What transmission do u plan on using?
Last edited by madbomber824; 10-29-2009 at 12:26 AM.
Also u can find little ways to find HP here and there. Ur 88 would have been fuel injected so fuel pump in gas tank if still works, get ur electric fuel pump going and run it through a regulator to ur carb instead of a mechanical. Also an electric fan, get that wired up and ur looking an extra 5-10 hp. I no its not much but headers causing less backpressure...i no some stuff can be small gains but it all adds up. The car looks awesome for how much u paid!!! Hope u guys have fun!
Last edited by madbomber824; 10-29-2009 at 12:37 AM.
Awesome... That is exactly what I wanted to hear. I have an electric fan that came with the car that looks to be in good condition.
As for a tranny it looks like I am picking up a 700r4 for about $75. I have to go take a look, but I am sure its fine. I will probably get a tranny rebuild kit anyways and shift kit for it.
The car is very solid (more pics on the way) and there is little to no rust at all and NO rot to be found anywhere. I think the car had a crappy paint job done in the original scheme though. I see overspray and flaws in weird places...
A 010 block is not necessarily "high performance". It was the run-of-the-mill 4" bore block casting used from '69 to '80. It came in many different forms - 302, 327, 350, 2-bolt, 4-bolt, cars, trucks, industrial - and a few (very, very few) were "high performance".
The one you have is a low-po 2-bbl. Unless you want a 135 HP wonder, you need to get rid of the carb, intake, heads, and cam. While you're at it, get a large-cap coil-in-cap HEI vacuum/mechanical advance distributor. You might be able to find a restorer on eBay looking for that old points distributor, but I doubt it, but you don't want to use it in your car one way or the other.
Even if the engine has 73k miles on it, it may still be "worn out" (could also be 173k miles). Engine oils and piston rings weren't all that good in those days, to say nothing of the plethora of casting and machining issues during those years. Low mileage vehicles were often only driven on short trips to the grocery store, and oil changes neglected. You might be able to do a compression check on it (you'll need to mount a starter on it, pull the spark plugs, hold the throttle and choke open while you turn the engine over). It would be easy enough to pull the valve covers - and intake since you probably don't want to keep it, anyway - and see how much crude has built up under there.
You may have a good enough short block so that heads, cam, intake, and carb would get it running decent enough.
Definitely anything above the pistons is a paper weight. A cleanup of the short block with new rings/bearings is a good idea IMO and will ensure you a reliable engine, especially since it looks like that one has been sitting for a while.
Definitely anything above the pistons is a paper weight. A cleanup of the short block with new rings/bearings is a good idea IMO and will ensure you a reliable engine, especially since it looks like that one has been sitting for a while.
Go through it and i agree that new rings and bearings will help u achieve ur goal! I'm running a 700r4 with a shift kit in my camaro and it is awesome!!! Keep up the good work! O yeah u can convert ur points with a digital kit which i would do....probably cheaper than a whole new distrbutor. and it would also be lower profile for a air cleaner....
Last edited by madbomber824; 10-29-2009 at 05:05 PM.
Pics of our progress soon. I visited a really nice guy today who has had 13 Camaros and Firebirds on his property which he parts out. I got a whole set of vents for $5 and am going back tomorrow for a 700r4 dash pad, center console arm rest cover, side arm rests and a ton of other stuff.
THE BAD NEWS... I took the motor apart... The cylinder walls arent scored at all, but water got in due to head gasket problems and the engine is ceased. I can probably use the block with a hone. I dunno. Pics coming soon.
The cylinders look good suprisingly! No pitting or scoring, just a little bit of surface rust. Question... Do the 305 pistons differ in any way?
BTW I picked up a like new dash pad,center console w/ arm rest and auto shift plat, 2 side door arm rests and some other stuff for $80 today. What a deal!
The cylinders look good suprisingly! No pitting or scoring, just a little bit of surface rust. Question... Do the 305 pistons differ in any way?
BTW I picked up a like new dash pad,center console w/ arm rest and auto shift plat, 2 side door arm rests and some other stuff for $80 today. What a deal!
305 pistons have a smaller diameter than 350 pistons.
Don't u have a 305 u could use?? I no a lot of people like the 350's better than 305's but u still can get some nice power out of a 305. In the May 2007 issue of Camaro Performers they have a article of a budget 150 hp 305 wake up call......they left the bottom stock and put in a 224/230 duration comp cam, a set of vortec heads that were milled .030 to raise compression, roller rockers, a edelbrock air-gap intake (vortec style), and a 650 cfm demon carb (personally a holley i think would be cheaper and easier). At the end it was making 372 hp & 6100 rpm and 350 tq & 4500 rpm.
The 305 we have isnt in the best shape either so 350 it is. Today we picked up a 700r4 and some wheels off an 86 berlinetta. Heres a pic of Josh goofing off with one. We fit the trans and all 4 wheels inside my mazda 3. We also picked up an e-brake handle and a door sill piece for a grand total of $177 for everything.
find some vortec heads or camel hump heads. The vortec heads flow nice but only thing is u have to find a vortec style intake to match it. As for the compression ratio, idk, it's your call, u could shave them or find a pair with small combustion chambers. im sure there are threads on this site about different heads and compression ratios. It depends on what u want, how much u can spend, do ur research with what ur planning with ur engine.
So u plan on using stock pistons, rods, and crank from 350, just honing it out??? U could find maybe nice used set of dome pistons to raise compression up and would be easier to reach a higher compression then.
Last edited by madbomber824; 11-04-2009 at 01:39 PM.
The 305 wasn't an LG4 was it? The LG4's came with #416 heads that are good performers with some porting and polishing - and adding the 305 heads on the 350 bumps the compression up well too!
If you do use dometop pistons, make sure you use the shorter Accel plugs (or similar short plug) - stock plugs will be hit by the dometops!
Today we picked up a 700r4 and some wheels off an 86 berlinetta. Heres a pic of Josh goofing off with one. We fit the trans and all 4 wheels inside my mazda 3.
Block is going in for a bore and hone tomorrow! I think we are going to go all out on this one and take our time. We might not start out with the best heads but I am going to get the numbers off the 305 heads we have
The wheels came off a Berlinetta with the digi dash that was sitting out in the woods (I guess they aren't stock wheels for that car) but they are going to be sandblasted and painted silver with each side of the spokes painted blue to match the car. Should look good... I jacked the car up and mounted one on to picture it better.
Block is going in for a bore and hone tomorrow! I think we are going to go all out on this one and take our time. We might not start out with the best heads but I am going to get the numbers off the 305 heads we have
U guys are doing really well!!! I kinda wish mine went this easy...lol
The wheels came off a Berlinetta with the digi dash that was sitting out in the woods (I guess they aren't stock wheels for that car) but they are going to be sandblasted and painted silver with each side of the spokes painted blue to match the car. Should look good... I jacked the car up and mounted one on to picture it better.
Personally, I like those rims. 15", right?
Careful with the sand blasting, not a good process for aluminum. And, the rims are anodized, not painted. Sand blasting is fine for paint on steel, but not for anodize on aluminum.
Thanks for letting me know that... You think they will hold paint with a bit of roughing up?
Clean um up and they would look awesome they way they are, but if you really want to paint them, get some Stripper from the parts store, and strip them down, make sure they are free of debris and rough them up a little, the paint should hold fine, and throw some clear coat on top, they will look good
but i agree, dont sandblast them, thats a bad idea
this is a great thread/build, i wish i had a place to build a 350, but im about to take the advice on the 305 build and redo what i have
good luck on everything, keep the pics and updates coming
You might be able to find a restorer on eBay looking for that old points distributor, but I doubt it, but you don't want to use it in your car one way or the other.
You can also gut the points distributor and buy the conversion for electronic. I know a few guys running this set up.
Careful with the sand blasting, not a good process for aluminum. And, the rims are anodized, not painted. Sand blasting is fine for paint on steel, but not for anodize on aluminum.
Sand blasting very bad....I have heard from a few sources over the years you can get micro fissures in the mags from sand blasting.
i do believe on the first page thru one of the links there is a great article on diy mag restore and painting
I got bit hard, and now I'm obsessed in a never ending saga of Camaro!
