Search



Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Engine Swap
Register Forgot Password?

Engine Swap Everything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.

Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-27-2011, 09:08 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
sbc 400 build starter question

so im building a 1973 400 small block chevy, it is going in to my 91 camaro with the five speed it came in it, orignally has a tbi 305 in it. i pretty much have everything done on the motor almost time to put it in just waiting for thhose paychecks haha. i bought i ram flywheel that is 168 tooth. i bought it for the block not the car. and about to get a dual friction centerforce clutch kit for it. my question is can i just buy a starter for the engine and be fine cuz ive heard the block mounted starter doesnt fit the flywheel right with the normal bellhousing on the transmission. now im pretty car smart and didnt think about this till tonight but i dont really think it matters? i wanted your opinion though if anyone has done this before or not.

also wondering if any of you have anythought on how much the motor will make at the crank. it is a 73 400 block. two bolt main. it is .60 over so its 410 cubes. 11 to 1 comp. has gm 200cc fast burn heads 2.02 1.60 valves, lunati cam .504/.525 lift .233/.241 dur its a hyd flat tapp. harland sharp 1.5 full roller rockers. stage two intake summit brand and a 650 cfm electric choke edelbrock carb. with 1 5/8" headers shorties into a 3 inch collector and 2.5 inch exhaust out the back.

should i possibly go bigger on the carb say a 750 or 850?
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 09:25 PM   #2
Supreme Member
 
zraffz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sussex County, NJ
Posts: 1,262
Car: 1994 Z28
Engine: 355 LT1
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.42

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

No idea on the first part.
You defiantly need a larger carb though.
zraffz is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 09:32 PM   #3
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 20,979
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: sbc 400 build starter question

If your block has 2 starter mounting holes instead of 3, you'll need to drill and tap the missing one to mount the 153 tooth flywheel that fits inside the T5 bellhousing.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 09:48 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

but i bought a 168 tooth flywheel, will that fit inside the t-5 bellhousing?
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 09:53 PM   #5
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 20,979
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: sbc 400 build starter question

No
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 09:59 PM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

may i ask why it wont? and i found a centerforce one that is 153 tooth but they both hold a 10.4 diaphram clutch. so i assume they are same size..
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 10:04 PM   #7
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 20,979
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)

Re: sbc 400 build starter question

The diameter of the clutch friction has nothing to do with the number of teeth on the flywheel ring gear. The ring gear on a 168 tooth flywheel is just too big to fit inside a T5 bellhousing.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 10:07 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

would it fit inside this? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LAK-15020/
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 04:06 AM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: AZ
Posts: 332
Car: 1978 Chevrolet impala
Engine: 350ci 300hp/356tq pace crate
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Yukon posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

It would fit that but you'd be better off just getting the right flywheel. Much much cheaper.
Grumbles is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 06:00 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

its just that ive kinda been looking at that scatter shield anyway because i saw a clutch explode on launch and it went right thru this trans ams floorboard and into the car. and im not sure if my block is drilled for the other hole for the starter. anyone ggot pics of what a two hole and three hole set up look like? and what about the numbers on hp for my motor anyone got any ideas? or the size of carb id need?
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 03:37 PM   #11
Moderator
 
five7kid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 42,050
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 10B-3.73/9"-3.89

Classifieds Rating: (14)

Let's be real - that engine will put out a lot more torque than a T5 can handle. Time to upgrade to a T56 or something else much stouter.

A scattershield is a good idea. Putting a T5 behind a 450-500 HP 400 SBC is a very bad idea.

You'll need a better intake manifold and carb, as well as better headers. Is your 2.5" exhaust single or duals? If single, it's about half what it needs to be.
five7kid is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 07:54 PM   #12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

650cfm is right on the limit for a 400 cubic inch engine at 6000 rpm
The headers are going to choke it before the carb most likely I would upgrade to some long tube 1 3/4 at least maybe even 1 7/8 diameter.
The t5 might last a while depending on what tires your going to run as well as mileage on the trans.
Full slicks will blow it to hell but street tires it could last a while.
IF the flywheel fits in the housing then I believe you will need a staggered 168 tooth starter.
Some 400 are straight and staggered for the starter and some are staggered only.

The engine should make around 420ish hp. The cam should make good mid-top but the headers will limit the top end a bit. That engine will have damn good midrange for sure.
Those are pretty good heads with that lift should flow 260/180 cfm or so.

Also he is some 408 sbc chevys dyno charts with the mods listed
http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos9.html

Last edited by flyjum; 01-28-2011 at 07:59 PM.
flyjum is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 10:08 PM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

wow thanks guys and the car and tranny have only 94000 miles. and its an open rear end right now with a ten bolt.. i really didnt think itd make that much power.. here is my problem though with the headers.. i have some longtubes 68460 hedmens i do believe 1 5/8 " primaries with 3 inch collector.. but there for the auto and the hit the slave cylinder on drivers side as you may know. and the only lt's ive come across that fir are the 2210's from hooker and are 500+ dollars not trying to spend that much on just headers. anyone find other headers that fit a manual?? or modify the ones i have? and for the exhaust its a 2.5 true dual exhaust with x pipe
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 10:09 PM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

oh ya and if i wanted a stronger manual trans were do i find a t56
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2011, 11:03 PM   #15
Moderator
 
five7kid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Littleton, CO USA
Posts: 42,050
Car: 82 Berlinetta/57 Bel Air
Engine: LS1/LQ4
Transmission: 4L60E/4L80E
Axle/Gears: 10B-3.73/9"-3.89

Classifieds Rating: (14)

Look for a T56 out of a '93-'97 f-body. You can get 400-type flywheels for them.
five7kid is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2011, 06:37 AM   #16
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

the swap looks kinda hard. i looked at the sticky late last night. how much money are we talking about to put a t56 in? any ways to beef up my t5?

also something off topic but with hypereutetic pistons what is a safe shot of nitrous to use? anyone doing it with hypereuteticc and not forged?

Last edited by tjtaylor; 01-29-2011 at 12:51 PM.
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2011, 05:57 PM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: RI
Posts: 1
Car: GMC Envoy but looking for a 3rd gen
Engine: 4.2 i6
Transmission: 4l60e
Axle/Gears: non-G80 :(

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjtaylor View Post
the swap looks kinda hard. i looked at the sticky late last night. how much money are we talking about to put a t56 in? any ways to beef up my t5?
I don't know how the hard the swap is but here's "kit" to swap a t56 but i have never tried it so i don't how its.

http://www.hawksthirdgenparts.com/ca...rsion-1-2.aspx
PEEPOD2727 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2011, 11:25 PM   #18
Member
 
Cerridius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Worth Tx
Posts: 292
Car: 1988 Camaro sport coupe
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: T5 world class manual transmission
Axle/Gears: i think its 3.08 ration posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Oh man awesome thread my car is a 305 TBI I'm getting a 400 tomorrow out of q 73 Capri and I'm gonna do this swap also. I already have the t56 transmission so, hopefully this thread helps me out because I'm a noob at this stuff. So the T56 will bolt up to the 400 huh? One of my concerns is the flywheel also I'm wondering what kind of flywheel I'm going to need, the guy I'm buying it from is going to give me a flywheel for the 400. Do you guys think my starter will fit onto the 400? On my 305 right now I have a high torque mini starter (don't remember any specifics) and would I also need to get a different radiator for the 400? Thanks for the help in advance!
Cerridius is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 05:49 AM   #19
Supreme Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,348
Car: Yes
Engine: Usually
Transmission: Sometimes
Axle/Gears: Behind me somewhere

Classifieds Rating: (1)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Quote:
So the T56 will bolt up to the 400 huh?
Of course; it's a Chevy V8.

Quote:
what kind of flywheel I'm going to need
Centerforce 700173

Quote:
going to give me a flywheel for the 400
Probably not, since a Caprice didn't come with a flywheel; it came with a flex plate, since it had an auto trans.

Quote:
Do you guys think my starter will fit onto the 400?
No. You will need to have a bolt hole drilled in the block. Have a machine shop do it BEFORE you put the engine in. Do a search on my userID and "starter bolt hole", you'll find that I've posted the reason about 50 times along with a pic of a 73 400 I drilled.

Quote:
would I also need to get a different radiator for the 400?
Don't know if you need a new radiator or not; "400" has nothing to do with that.
__________________
Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate.
William of Ockham, c. 1330 AD, from Quaestiones et decisiones in quattuor libros Sententiarum Petri Lombardi

Roughly paraphrased into modern English, and applied to figuring out what's wrong with your car:

The simplest explanation that fits all the facts is probably the right one.
sofakingdom is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 07:38 AM   #20
Member
 
Cerridius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Worth Tx
Posts: 292
Car: 1988 Camaro sport coupe
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: T5 world class manual transmission
Axle/Gears: i think its 3.08 ration posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

What do you think about 2460 hooker headers shorty, are they acceptable enough for the 400?
Cerridius is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 10:09 AM   #21
Supreme Member
 
Confuzed1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: GO PACK GO
Posts: 4,101
Car: 83Z28 HO
Engine: Magnacharged Dart Little M 408
Transmission: G Force 5 speed
Axle/Gears: Moser 9" w/Detroit Trutrac

Classifieds Rating: (4)

Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Ideally, you need 1 3/4" primary tube shorty headers and a single 3" exhaust at a minimum to get as much power out of it as you can. I have a 3" Hooker Supercomp catback exhaust on my car, but I believe my 408 has been limited using the set of TES headers that's on it.

That really narrows it down to a used set of SLP's, 2210's or Dyno Don's headers. I'm getting a set of Don's headers made right now. There might be another set out there with 1 3/4 primaries I'm unaware of.

Good luck finding 1 7/8" primary tube headers to fit a thirdgen, or running LT headers and having any real ground clearance cheaply.

I have a 800 CFM carb I'm putting on, but I have a blower. I'd think a 750 would be more than enough for any N/A 400.

Invest in a good high torque mini starter now...I went through numerous stock starters due to header heat myself. You've got better heads than I do, so you should get tons of torque out of it....I got well over 400 BEFORE the blower, and now I'm very close to 500...traction WILL be an issue.
__________________

USN-RET. 1998 - '83 Camaro Z28HO -400 Dart Little M, Magnuson MP122 Supercharger, 750 Speed Demon carb, AFR 195 heads, Scat forged crank, Comp Retro-roller cam, SRP forged pistons, G Force T-5 w/Pro-5.0 shifter, Moser 9" w/Detroit True-trac posi, UMI TQ arm, Lakewood LCA's, Dyno Don's Shorty Headers, Hooker SuperComp Catback, Griffin aluminum rad. Check out my pics: http://s865.photobucket.com/albums/a...cpZZ1QQtppZZ16
Also: 2011 Dodge Challenger SRT 392

Last edited by Confuzed1; 02-21-2011 at 10:13 AM.
Confuzed1 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 02:04 PM   #22
Member
 
Cerridius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Worth Tx
Posts: 292
Car: 1988 Camaro sport coupe
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: T5 world class manual transmission
Axle/Gears: i think its 3.08 ration posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Crap... So could I use my 1 5/8 hooker shorty 2460 headers for the time being till I can find some 1 3/4? I really dont want long tubes because of possible clearance issues. This is my cam btw. Crane #114142 Compucam
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,800-5,600
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 216
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 228
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 216 int./228 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 272
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 284
Advertised Duration: 272 int./284 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.454 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.480 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.454 int./0.480 exh
Cerridius is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 05:01 PM   #23
Supreme Member
 
Confuzed1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: GO PACK GO
Posts: 4,101
Car: 83Z28 HO
Engine: Magnacharged Dart Little M 408
Transmission: G Force 5 speed
Axle/Gears: Moser 9" w/Detroit Trutrac

Classifieds Rating: (4)

Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerridius View Post
Crap... So could I use my 1 5/8 hooker shorty 2460 headers for the time being till I can find some 1 3/4? I really dont want long tubes because of possible clearance issues. This is my cam btw. Crane #114142 Compucam
Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,800-5,600
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift: 216
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift: 228
Duration at 050 inch Lift: 216 int./228 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration: 272
Advertised Exhaust Duration: 284
Advertised Duration: 272 int./284 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.454 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.480 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.454 int./0.480 exh
Of course you can still use those headers. I've been running my TES headers with my 400 for over three years now. I just don't think that engine will see it's full potential until you make it breathe a little better that's all.

Sounds like the same cam on my 305HO when I had it in the car (2040 Compucam). It's not much cam for a 400.
Confuzed1 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2011, 09:13 PM   #24
Member
 
Cerridius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Worth Tx
Posts: 292
Car: 1988 Camaro sport coupe
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: T5 world class manual transmission
Axle/Gears: i think its 3.08 ration posi

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

Wooo just got my engine I R HAPPEH!!! Ok back to the point, will this flywheel bolt up to the back of the engine, and work with my High Torque Mini Starter and my T56 bellhousing/Tranny? http://www.jegs.com/i/Centerforce/18...oductId=751576
Oh, and that Carb is a Holley 750cfm
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 89. 78-89 400!!!!!!!!!.JPG (611.7 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg 84..JPG (628.6 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 80..JPG (642.2 KB, 10 views)
Cerridius is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2011, 08:18 PM   #25
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

yes i agree im still having problems with limited choices on starters cuz i never drilled that hole and i just trimmed the bellhousing to make it fit. get it drilled by a shop. also you do not need another radiator mine is working just fine. btw i got it running on saturday night!!!! sounds soooo good and yeah get a bigger cam im running a .504 .525 lift and its still idling really fast. is your block a 2 or four bolt?? if its 2 bolt get it splayed to four. mine was a 2 and i just left it. if its 4 bolt have fun get the webbing checked by a shop for cracks.
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 01:19 AM   #26
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: wallingford,ct
Posts: 474
Car: 91 formula ws6
Engine: 355 tpi OBDII
Transmission: 4l60E
Axle/Gears: 2.73 with 4th gen brakes

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

you want the 2 bolt cause there isnt much webbing down there and drilling for the 4 bolt conversion just weakens it further. what casting number? i had a 509 casting from a 74 impala in my 85 t/a. never overheated it. kinda wish i kept it now.....
fireburdluvr85 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 07:35 AM   #27
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 320
Car: 1991 Camaro RS ttops
Engine: 00 383
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 3.50

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: sbc 400 build starter question

yes the 2 bolt is stronger than the original 4 bolt i do believe, correcrt me if im wrong though. and getting them splayed 4 bolt is different than the original 4 bolt. and i do believe mine is a 509 casting as well. it was from a 73 b body haven't actually figured out the exact car.
tjtaylor is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2011, 07:35 AM
ThirdGen
1992 Camaro




Paid Advertisement


Reply

Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Engine Swap

Tags
168, 25, 400, 408, 650, build, cfm, chevy, flywheel, gen, id, inch, sbc, starter, tooth
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright 1997 - 2014 ThirdGen.org. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the expressed, documented, and written consent of ThirdGen.org's Administrators.

Emails & Contact Details