Quote: Originally Posted by johnnyboy if you want to clean off your tires before a run down the strip I see a lot of AWD guys go down the track just fine, with either no pre run tire spin, or a rolling tire spin for that effect, no need to do a full burnout to clean the tires off, that just heats them up.

Hi all,
I just came across this thread and had a thought.....find a totaled one of these....http://www.mbusa.com/models/main.do?modelCode=E550W.

I have driven one of these cars, and stock, they pull very hard, amazing.
If money and time was no object of course......also, most hardcore gm
guys would never consider a MB drive train.

Later, Randy

If ya gotta ask, you'll never know
btw, alot of seem to think that there is no car in the GM stable that would suitable for an AWD conversion. As I said eariler we had an AWD version of the Monaro(GTO) over here, it had LS1, 4L65e trans and it was based on a rear drive setup, not FWD. The trans tunnel would need to be widened and you would need to do work to the front suspension, but it could be done for sure, whether there is really any point however.....

I don't see many people using "burnouts" for anything more than creating smoke to, for some reason, impress thier friends on a Saturday night, in the parking lot. The question of why a "Standing" Burning is important comes from this observation, and the fact that AWD cars really don't need to heat thier tires too much or by any more than really just driving up to the line. If they do, they roll up past or through the water box and light up all 4 tires to clean/heat the tires in a rolling fashion, whihc again I would ask why a "standing burnout" is so important.

You obviously have never seen a real burnout comp. Here in Australia we have a show called the Summernats. The burnout comp there has to be seen to be believed. Not everything is about being the quickest over the 1/4.

Converting to AWD with the engine in the front would be very difficult. I believe it could be done.

Does anyone have any 'powertrain' pictures of any AWD configurations of Chrysler cars (300C, Charger, Magnum)?

Just because it'll take some engineering doesn't mean it couldn't happen.. besides, I'm an engineer, so I think it is possible.

Actually I've seen many burnout competitions, don't really care, doesn't do much for me, unless it's backed up by a quick 1/4 mile run immediatly afterward, otherwise it's just a lot of smoke for no reason.
Bone stock vehicles can sit there and burn thier tires off, hell my '98 Mailbu can do it, just push the e-brake on and step on the throttle, voila, instant tire smoke. *shrug*

I just bought a 300c AWD, the engine is set way back in the chassis and the wheels are set way forward. I think there is less than 1' from the wheel well to the bumper. The center diff sits just in front of the oil pan and slightly to the side to pick up the driveshaft coming from the "transfer case". There is a short extension on the passenger side of the diff that picks up the passenger half shaft. This has to pass under the damper.

In order to do this to a camaro you would have to set the engine back a whole lot then raise it 2-3". You would have to move the trans tunnel back enlarge it to the drivers side and then find some funky hood that would swallow the entire intake manifold. The valve covers would possibly hit the hood. Widening the trans tunnel is gonna be tricky because about where you would have to run the driveshaft is where the seat mounts.Then again you are going to have to build a huge box where your feet would go in the back seat to take the transfer case.

Take some time and poke around some cars that are AWD, I think it will surprise you how much they have to move stuff around to fit in there. I just sold a subaru to get the 300, I didn't realize it, but the entire engine sets in front of the front wheels. It's no wonder those cars are so front end heavy.

Guys there just isn't much room under these cars. My 300c is so much taller than a thirdgen it isn't funny. Even in it, it's very tight under there.

Personally I would keep the TPI 350 port and polish the heads and bore it out. After that if you want big power out of a TPI without stroking it just add a turbo. I know people who have made around 700 horsepower with this combo. Buy good parts though because you don't want to blow it apart. Also you have to drop the compression ratio down so you don't get early detonation. You can either get bigger cc heads or just dished pistons. Make sure the pistons are forged though. If your looking to get an independent suspension for your third gen go with a truck arm suspension and rearend. Its what nascar uses and its easily tuneable. There is a company that makes them for third gens. Its Hot Rods to Hell in burbank, california. The website is hotrodstohell.net. Hope I helped you out some how. The AWD part is kind of unrealistic though because you will have to totally cut out the front part of the chassis and fabricate one one to accomadate it and that means building basically your own front half. LATER

GMC cyclones were awd and 4.3 The Typhoons were turbos. Arn't they pretty much the same up front as a Fbody or am I wrong. If so it would be the easiet cost efficient way to achieve this.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...truck_feature/
Maybe something useful would be in there

Same up front? Maybe if a truck could be compared to a sports car

Still it would turn the fbody into a truck because you really dont have any room to put your AWD stuff under the K-member etc

Pocket, I can tell by your reply you've never ridden let alone driven cyclone/typhoon. Just because it's a "truck" doesn't mean it couldn't eat both of our cars. seeing how we both drive LO3. LMAO Turbo 4.3 Vortech AWD. Yep we'd get used to seeing it's taillights.

I'm not sure it would be as difficult as it seems. A plasma cutter and a mig welder and a little know how goes a long way. Of course who would think of cutting a car up and welding it back different. I dunno george barris, jesse james, boyd cottington. Point being this process could be done, and seeing how these are GM systems it would be the lesser of two evils.

I think the point trying to be made is the drivetrain components to make AWD will not fit in the space between the hood and ground. There less than 2" of clearance between the hood and motor with the factory direvtrain in a 3rd gen.

I've played in the woods and snow with vehicles. That is where AWD shines. Not to mention lots of broken parts. For the track, run a 4-link. You don't need anymore than that. Cheaper than AWD too.

in 1988 or 1989 gm produced the pontiac 6000 ste as an AWD 4 door car that shared a 3.1l v/6. i know of 2 around here in frederick and both still run well. this leads down the n* mated to the transaxle/awd unit and the hookup to the rear axle. plenty of room to fab a tubular k member or even the use of a fiero subframe with the ste transaxle and hook to the thirdgen rear axle. forgot to add that the engine will need to be transverse mounted. maybe use the lumina 3.6l "shortstar" subframe. need some more time to think this through. ive enjoyed pondering this problem

Stay away from awd. As a 3000 GT VR4, a 96 Eclipse GSX, and a 92 Gallant VR4 owner, I can tell you horror stories. The 3kGT has ate 3 transfer cases, big 16g turbos and all the suporting mods to run 28 psi and dyno at 500 and change, leads to broken parts. Since the tires are locked together, all that sudden torgue produced from a launch will find the weakest link and destroy it. I and many others have searched and searched to find a solution, none exists. I have the same prob with the GSX, look on there message boards and read about the # of people with broken transfer cases, and tranies. Or think of it this way, ever go to track and watch a car spin all night, till that 1 time he finally hooks and shears the drive shaft off or destroys the rear end. Why, because he hooked and that torgue found the 1 part that couldn't handle it.

Also why on earth would you want to add more parts to break? You know the more moving parts you add, the more parts there are to break. And don't say handling either, there are enough people here that can help you make your car handle. These cars have been around for a long time, the formula has been figured out a long time ago. You want to be different, then mod your car, no 2 cars are ever modded the same, or do a top tier resto, just findin all the o.e. parts will take you a couple yrs and keep you busy.

I left the import world because of those probs, I also own a fwd 3000 GT, with a turbo VR-4 engine, direct swap, same block, just different pistons, problem there is the opposite. She runs consistent 13.6 @ usually 110 ish with 2.6 60's. So I was either slippen or I was blowin transfer cases. I decided rwd is the way to go.

what about a skyline thats a longitudinal mounted engine and awd and makes lots of power

The skyline guys and the sy/ty guys that are going really fast arent even running AWD. When it comes right down to it the fastest way to get off the line is a set of sticky tires and getting all the weight to transfer to the rear. AWD isnt doing anything for you when your front wheels are a few inches off the ground.

One of the problems with the japanese rears, transes, and transfer cases is that while people can make a billion horsepower with the engines, they don't make much torque which is why they can live in these cars. Most of the problems with modified american cars running fwd/4wd with v-8s is that they produce lots of torque and many times the transmissions and transfer cases weren't designed for it.

The Bugatti Veyron is AWD.. it uses a Haldex coupling to accomplish this.

If someone was really interested in this, look into Z.A. Duntov's patents on AWD (and mid-engined). He put a 'tube' straight thru the oil pan to accomplish this.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=YBx...dq=zora+duntov

Don't follow this like gospel, but know that it has been done.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...t=awd+corvette


Pics too.

Seem like an idea if you are really serious about an AWD conversion, you should look into this for inspiration.

Is this thread dead? if not, i have some good info...

^ I always liked that C3 Corvette from VTG, Click here, some pretty good fabrication work....

Would have probably been better to just add the info...

if it where me and I had to have AWD I would due this.

Strip the car down to nothing
brace it up temperarly
cut the floor out-all of it
get a LSX motor (off sets some weight and will help later)
Bolt in a 4l60e(I think thats the number?)
Get the drive line parts for a AWD thoe,escalade,ect...
then just do a tube chassis floor
whatever you like in the rear
the front K-member will need to be custom
If needed remove or move the firewall back (more room for the front shafts)


LPE had a LSX 04" Escalade EXT (AWD) with twin turbos.

I think it is very dueable and super easy if the floor was removed. And with the drive tran of AWD truck all that work is done for you!

well? speak up.....

How about the engine and transaxle out of a V-8 AWD Olds Aurora??

Comparing 3000GT's and other imports to Sy/Ty's is like apples to oranges.

The driveline of the Sy/Ty's are almost bullet proof. The 700R is the weak link.
The Transfer case is all stock on the fastest awd Syclone in the world so is the rear diff (with good axels/cover) and front diff. With a 4L80E trans or TH400 your good to go. Bellhousing is same as SBC so your all set there too.

The 82-92Fbody isn't going to be easy to mock up a fwd pig/axels/spindles ect. But it's possible with enough effort.

There are guy's with good suspension with regular rwd doing killer 60's on drag radials so I don't see the point of awd in this chassis but to each his own I guess.
If your really wanting AWD... go with a Sy/Ty and make a single turbo V8. Several LS1 based engines in these trucks now... being more comon by the day.
Just a thought,
Scott~

Has anyone looked at the trailblazer ss for insparation the front diff bolts to and runs through the oil pan. If you could fab up a suspension it could work.

I've seen that setup.. It's not a bad start...

The streight 6's they put in that trail blazer can be made into one nasty MoFo. Do some searching... one guy with a 64 chevy wagon with streight6 made over 1200hp single turbo.
~Scott

find a crashed up awd caddy cts and use the parts......probably similar trackwidths and wheel base.....that is a longitudinal based design....

Just FYI...

GM also made an AWD astro van. I was told (but dont believe) the drivetrain is the same as the Syclone and Typhoon, just with different axles and such. I owned one, and hated it. But it might have usable parts that can be had for cheaper. If you can call any AWD parts cheap.


As far as a conversion... Its a cool idea, and Id like to see it. I cant see any advantages to doing it though. These cars were not made for offroad at all, and mine regularly scrapes bottom in town. And these cars have been deep into the 8s and I think even the 7s, so they can be made to hook. Other than being able to say "look what I have", I cant see going to the trouble. If you want AWD, buy a subaru.

just find a s10 chasis witht he awd and lower it as far as possible and cut out the F-body to fit around chasis and weld it up. AWD is over rated but fun and I have driven audi's and turbo R32 vw that could light up all 4 tires at a stand still but would rather have plain ole rwd. I have driven about every engine placement and drive combo's but mid engine/awd and I still like FR/RWD for its predictable nature.

A smaller and more elegant solution would be to take the running gear from an STS-4. I can get under the wife's car and take some pictures if you'd like...

This is an interesting thread. Many great opinions and ideas. I don't post much, (this is my second) but I should share my knowledge with everyone as much as I have gathered here and other places over the years. This 3rd gen site has a vast amount of great information, (must use the search tools) but once in a while I browse around for snippets of info, or just some entertainment.

Back to the post...

The original poster has obviously figured out there are better ways of achieving his goals, or gave up on an over-zealous project. Some new tech has made this more feasible, but unless you really like the 3rd gen interior, just put the body panels on another chassis.

Cost$$$, Time$$$ , and Maintenance$$$ puts this project on a Learning, or Discovery Channel level for someone who just wants to show it off to raise money, or someone with more money than brains and wants bragging rights (I wish I was one of those).

I have read other threads on this forum about IRS, and yes it can theorehtically out-handle a solid axle, but the draw-backs must be overcome to experiance any advantages.

Examples:

True Alignment- cannot be achieved for "true" tracking between rear tires without constant maintenance.

Someone metioned their vette with IRS. Its stiff ride IS attributed to a sway bar type suspension (in order to maintain a somewhat "true" alignment).

There are new "Bolt-On" kits using the same rear suspension design, but instead of on solid bar going from one side of the frame to one side of the axle, a type of scissor mechanism mounts to both sides of the frame and both sides of the axle, keeping it centered. (sounds better that IRS to me... think about the affect an angle of one axle has on a sway bar to the other side as compared to a solid axle moving together, and the sway bar actually doing it's job rather than acting like a spring.)

I have mentioned about reading other threads, but I have seriously looked into improving the handling of the bird/camero suspension, and other senior members of this site have talked about wiping euro cars clean off the road, with good bushings (probably need replacing anyway), a frame mod, and a couple upgraded components. I have even read about threads I don't care to look up and referance for everyone, but guys report pulling well over 1g on a skidpad with these mods. That number exceeds Indy car specs of the same era (if I am rememberring right, please correct me if I am wrong).

In General - The only racing car using IRS are Indy type chassis (again correct me if I am wrong), and they are maintained and adjusted at pit stops, not to mention what happens between races.

I guess I see it like, "Do you want a 6 cylinder jag with 6 carbs, or do you want to drive it when you are done?". But who am I?

These are only my opinions... sorry if it is long or unrelated. I don't want to discourage devolpment, but don't mind helping the discouraged!

Hi. I'm new to the forum, but not to wrenching. I have contemplated this awd possibility myself. I didn't read the entire thread, but here's what I came up with. I haven't done it due to loss of employment=lack of resources. Anyway:
I bought my sister an older, square-body FWD GM with a 3800, and I think it was an olds 88, or something about a model name including eighty eight. I doubt that was the year. Anyway, I noticed how similar the struts seemed to her '90 Firebird. On the Fiero forums I learned about usung 4WD S-10 hubs and stubs with FWD uprights/knuckles. And I have tried putting a 4.3 V6, like the Syclone/Typhoon used, in an '84 Firebird.
You would need a custom K-member. You might need to use the front diff and axles from a K1500 because an F-body is wider than an S-10. I didn't research that. You would have to use a 3.42:1 or deeper rear gear, because that is the tallest ratio offered for either front diff. The Sy/Ty used the same viscous transfer case as the Astro minivan, so finding that part would be easy, without the weight penalty of an unnecessary low range. The strength is there.
You are looking at floorpan surgery, and a shorter rear torque arm setup.
Probably also either using the Sy/Ty oilpan on a 4.3, or doing a dry-sump LS like the LS7, and offsetting it to the passenger side. All the more reason for an aluminum-block LS. The front end will get heavy either way. Brodix makes some good-flowing aluminum heads for the 4.3, and the Sy/Ty forums could teach you anything you might need about getting the power level you want.
Then 2 custom-length driveshafts. In steel, about $500.
The drivers seat would need different mounting, and the driver would lose footroom just like the passenger, only worse. Maybe need to move the pedals over.
The biggest hassle might end up being the steering. Perhaps the best move would be to graft in the entire IFS from an S-10, cutting it's frame to attach in place of your factory crossmember. Mounting the 4.3 the way I did wouldn't work, so you'd be on your own. Exhaust wouldn't be so bad, but would be all custom.
Practical: get an AWD car you like.