Quote: Originally Posted by //<86TA>\\ there you go, now this question never has to be asked again -Phil That has got to be the funniest thing I've read all year. You know how many times pics like that have been posted, yet people STILL ask, instead of searching & finding the pic already posted?

you know it will be

in a few days.. maybe even hours

there is always hope, have to think positively.

Last week my sender goes death. Thinking about the standard procedure of emptying, lowering the tank, the dif, brakes etc... that is not going to happen, never, forget it. Then I cut the famous access hole and... surprise... the lines goes over and around the tank.
The pics are pretty self explanatory. First cut the lines by hand using a hacksaw, then another inch on the lose lines with a mini pipe cuter to get some room. DON,T EVEN THINK ABOUT USING AN ELECTRIC TOOL ON THE LINES, YOU DON,T WANT ANY SPARKS FLYING AT TIS POINT. Cut the wires and splice with blade connectors. I use hi quality fuel injection hose because it stays flexible, cheap fuel hose tend to get hard as a pipe and have to break it each time you disassemble the thing.

Here used an industrial coating over the scratches and edges.
The strainer was in bad shape so removed and put a 3/8 hose, a little longer and angled so the tip seat horizontal in the bottom.
I happen to have a nice aluminum plate with some sort of "noise dampening material". Fixed with a small line of window silicone around the edge, just enough to leave the fumes outside and the next repair it just pry of easily. Don't want to drill screws because cutting over the tank was scary enough. Unless you are planing to carry a stove in the rear there is no need for screws, the carpet is so thick that it is not going anywhere.

The perfect crime...

And my needle is happy again...

!!! Puerto Rico lo hace mejor !!!

Very nice job and I like the fasteners



Is that trazodone on the pic...

I think it read at the bottom "Don't operate hevy machinery or cut over fuel tanks wile using this medication"...

Just joking, don't take me bad, I have aripiprazole on mine.

I agree with arrow it takes me 2-3 hours to change a pump out in a thridgen. Buddy of mine and I have the record in about an hour with using air tools and hour 30 on the ground. With little tools and a dying flashlght. The bolts consist of mostly 7mm, 10mm, 13,mm 14mm, 15mm and 18mm. Granted that time frame doesn't take into acount for cars that have never been torn apart rusted to crap suspension parts. Even at that, it would be a good time tto upgrade that stuff also. Being as it is prolly shot also.

That was funny has hell that night at the car show. Being heckled by a bunch of e-list I signed every paycheck over to have my car built for me pricks. While having the complete pump changed out in 1.5 hours start to finish.

BTW Uncle Tom I do know what huck bolts are and use many of them a day. They aren't rivets. Rivets are shot with an impact/rivet gun and huck bolts are pulled.

I was thinking about doing this but would like to use compression fittings on the lines so I could unhook them easily, does anyone know what size the fuel lines are so I can get the correct fittings? Or does anyone know a easier way of doing it except for using rubber hose and clamps because if I am not mistaken one of those lines are high pressure

Main supply => 3/8"
Return side => 5/16"
Vapor Canister line => 1/4"

The fourth line appears to be some kind of pressure vent.
For better or worse, I just plugged this one.

Lowe's/H-D don't have a very good selection of 5/16 fittings.
Probably have better luck at an independent Ace Hardware store.

Good luck

Thank you

This is always a funny subject. Half the people yell "No!" the other half yell "Yes!"

Personally I admit I did do this to my 92 RS. However I had just converted from TBI to HSR, built the motor from scratch, ran into a TON of problems, and in the end I still had to swap the pump.

After all that work, dropping the tank was the last thing I wanted to do. So I cut the famous hole.

Now I am a mechanic, and No I would not do this to other people's vehicles. Unless it was a close friend with consent to do so. That was not the case though. After 30 minutes the pump was in and ready to go. Total life saver IMO.

Ever read the power window motor install thread? People were ready to kill...lol! Good times.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/bo...tall-easy.html (Window motor install.......THE EASY WAY....the tech article is bogus!)

I concur!
I blew out the original 305 (nice motor but when you have to power merge on to a highway from a stand still and car are going over 70mph and after 15 minutes you have to get on the highway somewhere down Georgia, loaded with your honey and luggage for your trip to the Fl Keys. 0 to 70 just takes a long time.) could not find another 305, so I seen a junk yard in NJ with a 350 TBI off a 92 RoadMaster(cool name, lots of torque)) estate wagon, Converted it back to a Carb Setup for my pretty little Quadrajet. Now I have this noise in the rear of my car when fuel is low and I make a sharp turn. "CLANK, CLANK, CLANK, CLANK, CLANK, CLANK".
It goes on till I get more gas in the car. I have an external fuel pump by the tank. I wanted to get a internal one for the tank but I was intimidated into dropping the tank and puting a new one in. I read a thread that said one member drooped his tank for time in one year with pumps from autozone and advance autoparts. so I didn't wanna go thru that.

This is a great Idea you got, thanks for turning on unused brain cells. My interstate transportation capsule will be even more easier to service and that is one less thing to worry about when your going on 4000 to 5000 mile round trips, a couple of times a year

Heck yeah!I love this mod!!I did mine on my 91-z before tony posted this.Got my info from that tta thread.If you ask me,this is the (right)way!
But all you purists out there including the ones that said I was doing a hack job back then and just love the idea now..haha!!
Next time I need shocks,maybe I should drop the fuel tank first.That would make the upper bolts easier to gain access with an open end wrench...

What would be (clanking)? Your fuel pump is external you stated.WHY PUT A INTANK BACK IN?????

when fuel gets low real low, external electric pump mounted by gas tank, pump gets an air pocket. the sounds is not clank clank clack. it's more like a rapid pulsating sound. that a little embbarassing.

keep more then a 1/4 tank in it then

I can understand that..Did you put a long enough piece of fuel line in the tank ..I am going to use a carb style fuel sender pickup from a carbed camaro 1985.....

im sorry to say it but my access hole is just like yours when my fuel pump pukes on side of the highway on dont have to leave my baby long for someone to bust the windows out i throw in a pump and im back on the highway within the hour and i dont even get my clothes dirty, i cut out an access hole covered it with a section cut from a semi mudflap and covered it with the carpet, i cant tell its there nor can anyone else.

All I've got to say is that this looks way better than the hack job done on my car. The idiot that had mine cut it with a torch on three sides and bent the flap up. Then he hammered it back down and went bondo crazy. So I'm going to have the body shop fix this when the car gets stripped for paint.

That doesn't surprise me. Neither does the mudflap comment from above. We need to start taking pride in out Camaros. They have been riduculed for far too long.

Well my cars are both Trans-AM's, but your point is well taken and I think that applies to both vehicles.

Lolz. Jim no one picks up on sarcasm on this board.

original carb style fuel sending unit on gas tank

Good job on the details, and the link to the TTA. Going to be using both as references to cut a hole in my Firebird. My Camaro on the other hand, is getting the fuel pump replaced the proper way. I guess I want to experience dropping the tank before I do the access panel in the Firebird.

dam bro been years since ive seen a berlinetta guage cluster

u brought it back

Another option would be to drop the tank the right way once, then replace the fuel pump with an in-line unit to make future replacements easier.

i wouldnt say there is a right or a wrong way, just different options to fit that persons agenda.
im for replacing with external, which i have done.

Making three cuts in the floor with a cutting torch (for a larger hole than is needed) along with bending the flap upwards is the wrong way. Folding it back down leaving a distorted side, then going Bondo crazy to fix it is wrong. That's what the former owner of my car did. Trust me there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything. Now the people who cut clean holes in their floors and made proper fuel pump access covers made a modification to make changing the fuel pump easier. I have no problem with that and wouldn't call it wrong. Dropping the tank and going that route is what's probably in the GM service manual for these cars and in no way compromises the structure of the vehicle. I'd call that the right way to do things.

I'm dropping the tank to replace the fuel pump. If I have to drop it again any time soon, then I'm making an access hole AFTER I drop the tank to prevent any unnecessary damage to the tank or sending unit.

My first time dropping the tank with my Camaro, over the weekend, took me only two hours and no manual for a reference!

I'm a purist when it comes to my Camaro (first car), but my Firebird, that has future drag strip plans.

The time my fuel pump died 50 miles from home I was glad I had that access hole (and that there was a Schucks within walking distance)! Took all of 10 minutes to swap the pump and I was on my way home without having to have my car towed.

I'm probably going to go with an in-line unit so that I can do things easily without hacking up the car.

Thats another way to go.

i hope you are planning on at least removing the stock unit from the tank, and installing a pick up tube.

There was a good 1/2"-3/4" between the body and tank in my Camaros ( I did this to my '85 Z28 too back in the day ) so if you're careful and not using a torch like an idiot, there isn't much chance of damaging anything.

BTW, this mod is a lifesaver for emergency roadside repairs.

using a torch and bondo isnt what i was referring to.
a properly cut hole, if you will, is an option like you mention above.
some people are hacks.

My 91 RS was cut when I got it. Didn't even know till I had fuel pump problems. It isn't any where near as neat a job as Tony's, I will clean it up later. but my question is do you have enough clearance to remove the sending unit without cutting the tubes if you do use tube unions with the slip on flares to reconnect the tubes, as the modifyer of mine failed to use, hose & clamps don't cut it.

Great post, and you did a good job. I did the same thing last summer. I had a mechanic drop my tank about two years ago, to install a new pump, he did it all in about three hours, in a driveway. Then last year the car had to take a fuel system pressure test (new CA smog test) and failed, meaning the tank had to be dropped again.

A lot of these cars have leaky gas tanks, around the fuel filler neck and top of tank, there was even a recall for fuel filler necks on some cars, mine included but don't think it was ever taken in for repair.

I JB welded around the tank neck which was loose, but a smoke test showed a vapor leak coming from the top of the tank. So I cut a hatch as you did, above the fuel tank, cleaned and sealed everything and now it is all tight as a drum, passed the pressure test, and makes a big sucking noise when you take off the gas cap especially when not much gas in the tank.

Plus now I have the access hatch which is handy. Right now I just have the sheet metal duct taped over the hole, but planning to put a nice metal plate on there as you have.

Hard to say which method is better, of course dropping the tank is "doing it by the book" but the hatch is a shortcut making future repairs easier. And yes I've read the power window thread, I think I know which way I'll go on that one...

As somebody that has been stranded by a fuel pump going out (my 85 sport coupe, about 10 years ago) I have two questions about this topic, and would appreciate a clear answer without judgement and finger pointing from either side of the debate

first... is there a tech article written with the step by step PROPER way to change a fuel pump? If not, I would love to see one to show people that it's do-able for the average shadetree mechanic

second... for those who choose the access hole method. Are rubber hoses really a proper way to repair the fuel lines that have to be cut? can rubber relaly support high pressure fuel long term,or is it a disaster waiting to happen? Has anybody here ever used a double flare tool to create a real fuel fitting, and retain the full metal tubing?
I'm keeping an open mind about this mod, but if the fuel line issue can be addressed, I think it's a valuable option. I wasn't in a position 10 years ago that I could drop the tank and rear end, but if i could fix it on the side of the road, it would have saved me hundreds of dollars

Only 1 of the 4 lines back there are under pressure, so rubber hose (the proper stuff) is perfectly safe to use. TBIs & carbs use a much lower pressure than TPI, LT1 & LS1, so only 1 lines really needs the lines flares & the correct fittings put on.

what about MPFI? Do you know what kind of pressure we're talking about there?

if I flare, is double flare needed, or will single do?

Sorry, I have no clue what pressure the v6s run.

it's ok. If I do the mod I'll probably get the flare kit to be safe. It's only like $30 from amazon. that's nothing for a tool

its good to know i only have to do that line, if anybody else has the pressure for the v6's, I'd still like to know

MPFI V6's use the same pressure and pump as the TPI cars

thanks. If I do this, I'll make sure I use flared lines.

Now... does anybody know if a tech article for the regular way to do this? It's funny how there are several how to article for the hole method, and certain people flame them, but I can't find one on the "right" way

No need to repeat the exact process laid out in a Haynes or service manual. Plus anyone with basic automotive knowledge will be able to figure it out. There really isnt anything tricky about it

Hi, as for the right method to do the access hatch, there are a few ways but the main thing is not to make sparks or puncture the tank, obviously. Seems to me I drilled a hole (very carefully) to start my cuts, then used tin snips and the metal is fairly easy to cut.

Since the fuel pump itself uses a rubber hose to feed the lines, I'm sure rubber is fine, plus some cars use rubber lines with clamps for engine bay fuel supply. With the hatch, you can inspect things now and again, even so if the clamps are tight it should be fine.

A note of caution, be careful using "fuel system cleaners" such as Techron, as they tend to eat things. It was after a big bottle of Techron that my fuel pump went out, and it was the rubber supply line that was deteriorated (after almost twenty years of sitting in gas), pump still worked.

The reason you wont find instructions on how to do it the "right" way in this thread is because the people that have performed the "hole mod" already know how to do it the "right" way and choose to go a quicker, easier route. This is more catered to the fabrication involved in performing the mod.

Check the other sections of the site for more stardard procedures...but like Pocket said, its pretty straight forward once you get under the car start looking at the guts. Exhaust comes out, axles has to drop (meaning shocks unbolted, etc), some heat shields come off... Its not real hard work, just time consuming.

J.

PS hoses are also rubber. It doesnt mean common rubber lines and hose clamps are the best thing for it