Quote: Originally Posted by Poncho Villa Since the fuel pump itself uses a rubber hose to feed the lines, I'm sure rubber is fine, plus some cars use rubber lines with clamps for engine bay fuel supply. With the hatch, you can inspect things now and again, even so if the clamps are tight it should be fine. If that is true, then I guess "water is water", right? Do you drink out of the toilet? Wash your clothes in it?

yes, and the ps hoses are heavy, internally reinforced with crip connections, and steel ends with flares.


There are enough threads on this board that clearly cover the methods to change the pump, with or without the access hole.

And after that is all out, it's a good time to cut a hole and weld up a sealing ring like most new cars have with access panels for the pump. Every time I do a fuel pump on a car, look it up in the book and find the factory put an access panel under the rear seats, or in the trunk or some other equally easy place to get at I think about how crappy the design is on the thirdgen fbody. But then again, these cars were designed in the 70s and if they didn't have soo much room for improvement well thirdgen.org wouldn't be such a popular site.

My vote is to cut and flare the hard lines, which seems to be how the imports all do it, rather than using rubber hoses.

For a 'donor' panel + sealing ring, look into a mid 90s celica, or other toyota. When done it will look factory.

-- Joe

good tip... thanks

just make sure to use rubber hose that is rated for fuel service.

this has been covered so many times before.

Replacing the fuel pump is simple, without the dang door if you wanna hack up a car go get a civic and a dye grinder and cut away IMO

we had a HUGe thread in the SW forums but i cant find it, there is ONE guy who did an insane job of reinforcing it which would be suitable but 90% of people doing this wont go thru this much trouble. The fact of the matter is when you cut apart the car youre compromising the structural integrity of the body in a crash

if anyone can find that thread im talking about please link it, i think it was deleted tho

Do you have an engineering degree?

Sure the thread has been covered numerous times. Starting back when you were about 8 years old when we all first joined this site But there is no harm or foul in new ideas or discussing it again. Many old threads end in nothing but debate with no resolution.

Rather than flaming the guy, or telling him to buy a honda (which is actually not bad advice considering the fuel economy and reliability of honda) lets either contribute tech to the goal at hand, or silently move onto the next thread.

-- Joe

Have you looked under your car? There are larger drain holes, mount holes, etc all over the floor. NOT to mention that if you have T-tops, and you dont have a car that was taken care of, there are probably rusty areas that are WAY weaker than any access hole that you make.

But I degress...the word hack keeps being used over and over again, but it seems like its meaning has just flown out the window.

anesthes: Do you have any pictures of the factory access panel from another car welded into a f-body? I like this idea because obviously if its good enough for a factory car, its good enough for us. In fact, most guys that do a good job making their own panel probably end up going overboard to err on the side of safety/longevity etc. Which I dont blame em. But having a nice pre-made hole would be nice. Are they usually big enough to get the f-body fuel sender out?

Im on track for just making my own frame and panel, and Im going to use 1/4 turn zeus fasteners most likely. But Ive also found some hinged access panels on the net for pretty cheap. Cut the hole, a little sealant, some rivets around the perimeter, weather stripping on the door and its done. Nice and clean. Just not sure what kind of opening Ill need to get in there through the panel.

J.

Originally Posted by Poncho

Since the fuel pump itself uses a rubber hose to feed the lines, I'm sure rubber is fine, plus some cars use rubber lines with clamps for engine bay fuel supply. With the hatch, you can inspect things now and again, even so if the clamps are tight it should be fine.

"If that is true, then I guess "water is water", right? Do you drink out of the toilet? Wash your clothes in it?"


Very funny... Obviously you would use hose that is rated for fuel lines, but yes good point, you want to use the best materials for the job, and don't drink toilet water.

is there anyway to unhook the fuel lines without cuttng them to access the fuel pump after u cut an access panel out? I'm preparing to replace my fuel pump.

I believe that a certain 82 or 83 camaro had an access door to the fuel pump and that came out of the factory. I mean look at the trunk layout, the way the location of the flat metal that is over the pump but GM decided not to press that section out anymore.

the spider legs of the fuel lines are way too long to pull them out through the hole. you would have cut a slot all the way down to the floorpan of the passenger compartment to do what you are talking about.

no, if you cut the access hole, you have to cut the lines. No way around it.

never heard or seen a early car with a access door, and it would be pointless because you would still have to cut the hardlines.

I've seen ONE guy who cut his access hole big enough. Scary big!

I'd love to see pics of a 82 r 83 that had the access door your referring to. I would bet that the SCCA Trans Am Camaros either had such a door, used an external pump or (most likely) were carb'd cars, not FI.

LOL scary big. I was just wondering if u would be able to reach the quick disconnect fuel lines from the access hole or maybe cutting the hole in more of a shape of an "L" to reach the quick disconnect. I'm glad GM changed that style of pump to what is used now.

Back to the camaro access door. The last time i put a fuel pump in my formula (7yrs ago), I was talking to a couple of techs i worked with at a chevy dealership and i was griping about how they should have a door to access the pump like alot of cars have nowadays. The guys said there was but it so long ago I don't remember exactly what year or what submodel. When they told me this, i was like, "what changed their ways?" We came up with the assumption that GM at the time figured dealerships would make more money off of the customer doing the drop the tank way than the access door plus car companies want people to bring their cars into dealerships for repairs than u doing the repairs. The more complex the job, the more likely u will bring it in. The next time i see those guys i will ask them about this mystery camaro access door.

I highly doubt that a little access door takes away so much "structural integrity" to the car, that it will be totaled if rear-ended by a moped at anything over 5 mph. Do it correctly and do it right. I am getting ready to do this to my car, and have already done it to my brothers 88.

Dave

First thanks to tony for taking the time to write this up.

I too am one of those that does not have the tools to do this, or the money to let a garage do it, I am unemployed and have to do this the cheapest possible way to get the car running again. That means not buying floor jacks, Jack stands, and other tools to remove the entire rear exhaust, drop the rear end, and drop the tank. Then there are all those individuals who live in apartments, and are not allowed to do major work.

I think you should add to your original write up some very important information that has to do with cutting the fuel lines, since were dealing with a potentially exploding gas tank.
It would also be very helpful to add the size of the rubber fuel lines, and the hp part to buy to the first post.

Did you drain all the gas out of the gas tank, and let it evaporate totally dry?
How did you drain the gas tank, since the tank is still in the car?
What did you use to cut the fuel lines?
If you didn't drain the tank how did you cut the lines in a safe way that wouldn't cause sparks?

I saw one say they used a hack saw, that won't cause sparks? if the tank has gas in it there will be vapor in the line!

another pic I caw a line cutter, is that safe to cut through the lines with gas still in the tank?

I just think the most important info is missing other than that, its very helpful to those that have no other choice.

thanks

its been awhile since i've been on here. I replaced my pump and sending unit (to fix my gas gauge) by cutting a hole in the back and made an access door. I was able to remove the whole sending unit without cutting the fuel lines and without cutting a giant hole either Just by dropping the tank where u would have enough room to fish the sending unit out. I just wanted people to know that they can remove the sending unit without cutting the lines since there were folks saying there is noway around it. I got pics and will be posting them soon along with a step by step procedure.

I was thinking of making an access hole, but I can get the tank dropped in 30-45 minutes, and about the same to put everything back together. Once you do it, it's pretty simple, only need a couple tools and sockets; a 7mm socket, 18 & 21mm, 1/2 and 3/4 wrench, and 13 & 15mm socket (forgetting any?). Use a pneumatic impact wrench and it goes very quickly.

my point exactly, doesnt take that long to drop the tank, but people dont want to do the "work"

I have to pull mine again, my sender seems to have taken a crap.

It's not that. Its that we don't want to do the work AGAIN. We'd rather fix the oversight by GM & do what they should have done to begin with.

In the time that it takes you to drop it, we can be FINISHED & moved on to another project. If it goes out on the side of the road/in a parking lot/wherever...We can fix it right there & go on. No need to get a tow truck or trailer to get the car to our garage/a repair shop/our buddies garage.

On those cars that come with an access door.....Is using the door the "wrong way"? Or is it..."GM shoulda done this....."

You go ahead & do it the hard way, while we are finished, have clean hands & sit back & laugh at you guys.

laugh all you want, i dont have a hole in the truck floor that will invite rust, and my fuel lines are in one piece.

oh btw, my fuel pump is external, so if it dies, i can swap it in minutes, while you are still pulling your carpet and taking the sender out. THATS the way to fix GM's oversight!

Painting after the cutting and/or with POR15 removes any chance of rust appearing. Or if welding in SFCs wrong too, because that means bare metal = rust?

External pumps are another way to fix GMs oversight, but I wouldn't say it is "better". Neither are. Both are equally effective ways to achieve the "same" solution.....A quick & easy way of replacing a bad pump.

Just did it last week. Its not that bad

If you want an access hole, go ahead and make one. I changed my mind once I did it the long-hard-dirty way. I feel better after doing hard work. I could end up changing my mind in the future, but like 86TA, I think an external pump is the best way to go.

it's just a matter of time, my car is low miles (under 30.000) 92 Z28
ill bet has soon as i get the 3rd eng in, and all the new parts on,
the pump will let Go!!

well i did the access door so i didn't have to take the tank the way out and cut my exhaust. Being accustomed to working on lift and not having that luxury anymore, working on the ground wrestling an emtpy tank running a risk of jacking up the filler neck, I choose not to do it. Plus I was confedident that you can get the sending unit out without cutting the fuel lines when the disconnects are not far away and I succeeded by cuttting out a 8"x12" hole which was a little bigger from everyone elses. Dropped the tank where i had room to work and fished that sucker out. It took pretty much the same time to get it in and out as the standard way just without wrestling on the ground part which I enjoy not doing

found a great one for your guys, took the pics from frrax

this is DEFIANTLY the wrong way to do this



just thought i'd share

I just did this myself on one of my cars. It isn't too hard to do, just a little time consuming. You can swap the fuel pump in just a couple of hours with a few tools. However, once you get everything out, the best course of action is the inline fuel pump. You ensure that you'll never have to go through all that trouble again and the result isn't ghetto, and there isn't the possibility of harming the structural integrity of the car.

Holy cow did he use a can opener!!

I can't even begin to fathom the type of thinking required to do something like that to your car. I guess its the whole "no ones going to see it anyway" mentality that allows them to carry out such plans.

in the guys defense, it was done by the PO. But yeah, it takes some real stupidity to do something like that, and not even patch it back together afterward!

No S&%t thats the wrong way. But that photo has nothing to do with how the OP did his mod. It is kind of sad to see so many so called "good" people flame a man for making his life a little easier. I dont know that I would do it, But if did I can at the very least see how someone else did it and know that it can and will work. and for such a small hole to think that you loose body integrity seems to me to be a joke. I would rather have a small fuel pump hole in the floor as apposed to say T-Tops.

My 82 berlanetta doesnt have that hole, and my 83 Z28 didnt also. So do you know what model did?

I don't think that was ever done from the factory.

Thats what I know, It was a question to the guy that posted that some either 82-83 camaros had them. I have a 82 and I had a 83, neither of them had one. so I wanted to know what one he was talking about. As far as I can tell no 3rd gen came from the factory with one at all. But they should have. At least the late model 3rd gens. Because the older years were man fuel pumps.

chip foose? boyd coddington? if it was ment to be that way it would have been done from the factory? flake in paint? shaved doors..are they crazy "why would you do that" they said...
why use a jack to pick up your car..... because it is easier than crawling under it. ..
good job for cutting that hole... good idea. i will do same thing when it comes time..hack job? no....he is a smart guy.... keep up the good work man

Ive dropped my tank 3 time in as many months due to recalls and other defects. My brother tryed to get me to cut a hole in my car but theres no way in heck I would cut up my car. If my car were a piece of crap I would do it but its 2 good to do that. every car that Ive seen this done to are now parts cars. Also if your going to keep the car then do it but dont cut a hole in the car and sell it to someone hoping nothing happens. Kinda makes you wanna check under the hatch carpet when your looking at one to buy huh!? For me that would make the car less valueable.

When I had that dicussion a long time ago with some techs I worked with. I was being funny, complaining about how it was a pain in the *** of cutting exhaust and wrestling the tank down when I had to replace the pump. I was saying GM should of thought of an easier way to access the pump. They both mentioned they did at one time I just don't remember what year. This discussion with those guys was nearly 8 yrs ago lol, I still keep in touch with those guys and I just called a guy that I know, he would the answer to that question. I promise to let u know if I'm right or wrong. I know lots of models do have an access door now even the 4th gen f-bodies. Thats what convinced me to do the access door in my car but I did it different from everybody else.

i did it but i call it my peep hole

Right, like foose or coddington would ever cut a hole like that.

That's not a repair, it's a hack job, the hole is a hack job, the cut lines and reconnected with rubber is a hack job!! The factory didn't use o ring seals on the pressure line for nothing. They used that for a leak free dependable maintainance free setup. And what do you people do? You cut the lines and connect w/ rubber over a smooth (or better yet rusted) tube without any kind of flares or serrating to keep the hose from popping off.

You can BS here all you want, it's a hack job and it always will be until the 1st person here posts a pic of a NEATLY cut hole and a neatly fabricated cover w/ nutserts or some other kind of fastening method in the original steel and the lid on top w/ a gasket...much like a fuel cell filler plate. That would be a clean install. The rest is an abomination, absolute horror and it just shows that you have no pride in your work.

There are other reasons why there's no hole there from the factory, like keeping fumes from entering the passenger compartment in case of a leaky exhaust or something to that extent, or when you get rear ended and the tank ruptures, it could give you some life saving seconds before flames enter the passenger compartment. So, apart from a hackjob, it's potentially dangerous too....in a collision those rubber fuel lines that are poorly secured won't help either.

Most cars have them now, and don't have problems with fumes or other
bs... the only reason that these don't is that they were designed before FI intank pumps were common, basically before there was a reason for them.

Going to close this now. Too many references to "hack job" without any legitimate technical input. sad.

-- Joe