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Everyone that has done this upgrade needs to check the bolts that hold the caliper to the braket!!!! I did the LS1 upgrade on my GTA about 4 months ago and have put about 1k on them. My drivers front caliper came off on me last weekend and could have been really bad if the car hadn't been slowing down alread (wheel locked at about 30 or so). It cost me a wheel, caliper, brake line, and tire but could have been much worse. The bolts had locktite and had been check several times for tightness. This was a kit that I had purchased, and installed by the book. Hopefully it was just a fluke.
I'm still not sure what happened but have ask Ed to check into it..
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I was gonna post on this earlier last night but I had to shrink the pics down when I got home to get them to fit in the forum...
Here's a pic of Jeff's caliper after the bolt(s) backed out on him at about 30 MPH. All I can say is check them often, use a torque wrench, and Locktite or equivalent.
Also, I STRONGLY suggest lockwiring (safety wiring) your bolts if you can and are able like I did on my 1LE car. It's not that hard and in this case could have saved the damage and worry caused by the wheel locking up. I suggest drilling a hole in the bolt heads and a small hole close to the bolts in the bracket and tieing them together with the lockwire. Links to how to install lockwire are here:
I'm glad to hear that no one was hurt when the wheel locked up but now Jeff's out a wheel, caliper, and other stuff, but we'll see what we can do to get him back on the road.
Ed
Last edited by ebmiller88; 07-06-2004 at 07:30 PM.
wow, thats scary. i went through last night and checked all the bolts on the brakes, front and back, cause i was hoping to drive the car today, im glad i did cause the carrier bolts on the back werent tight. but when you put an xacto blade into your thumb it puts a dampner on things
The same exact thing happened to me in my Malibu. Different brakes, but it is the same idea. I was able to limp the car home using the parking brake and 1st gear. I got away with buying new bolts, pads, and rotors... they needed it anyway. The caliper has just a little of a cooling fin taken off, and the wheel barely has a groove. I thought about saftey wiring them together but the new ones came with loctite already, I used red loctite on the other side. Also, the grade of the hardware should be up to par too. I'm pretty sure metric grade 8.8 is about grade 5, and 10.9 is grade 8.
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Originally posted by jcsws6 Everyone that has done this upgrade needs to check the bolts that hold the caliper to the braket!!!! I did the LS1 upgrade on my GTA about 4 months ago and have put about 1k on them. My drivers front caliper came off on me last weekend and could have been really bad if the car hadn't been slowing down alread (wheel locked at about 30 or so). It cost me a wheel, caliper, brake line, and tire but could have been much worse. The bolts had locktite and had been check several times for tightness. This was a kit that I had purchased, and installed by the book. Hopefully it was just a fluke.
I'm still not sure what happened but have ask Ed to check into it..
Did the whole bolt just back out or did it loosen and shear off? And were you using GM bolts or some hardware store's bolts?
No they weren't stock bolts, they're Grade 8 metric bolts. And the whole bolt came out. The stock LS1 caliper mounting bolts are too long to use without cutting them down so different bolts were used in this setup. The stock bolts on the LS1s and Vettes also come with red locktite on them, just look at a new bolt for a C5 caliper or in the bolts for a PBR rear caliper rebuild kit.
Don't know why it happened but I'm looking into it with a passion. I know different bolts are tighter here and there but this should not have happened. We may just need to find a different bolt.
Originally posted by ebmiller88 No they weren't stock bolts, they're Grade 8 metric bolts. And the whole bolt came out. The stock LS1 caliper mounting bolts are too long to use without cutting them down so different bolts were used in this setup. The stock bolts on the LS1s and Vettes also come with red locktite on them, just look at a new bolt for a C5 caliper or in the bolts for a PBR rear caliper rebuild kit.
Don't know why it happened but I'm looking into it with a passion. I know different bolts are tighter here and there but this should not have happened. We may just need to find a different bolt.
Ed
Are you positive it was a Grade 8 metric? Grade 8 applys to US where metric uses a point grading, like 10.9. I'm assuming it was just a standard hex head bolt. You may want to use a flange head bolt that will move evenly spread load and provide greater clamping.
Last edited by Justins86bird; 07-07-2004 at 03:52 AM.
Right, I misspoke. They are 10.9 grade, and hex head bolts. I'll be looking for flange head bolts and also checking to see if, when used with a thick style washer, the factory bolts can be used.
Here's an example of a flange head bolt. Flange bolts are used on 3rd gens on the rear PBR brakes to attach the caliper carrier to the backing plate. They just have the washer cast into the head.
OK, here's what I've found out by talking to parts guru Dal Slabaugh and also referring to AndyZ28's 1LE Plus CD. If you don't have that disc, you're missing a LOT of good info!!!
Here's a shot of the bolts and washers required to install the 1LE brake system. The large M14 x 2.00 bolts are P/N 14084051 and hold the caliper carrier to the 1LE adapter bracket, along with the large washers (P/N 10268875) you see in the pic. This same bolt is used on the C4 caliper carriers to hold the carriers to the spindle. We need to use these bolts and washers on all the C4 kits. They come from GM with the red Locktite already on them. Only drawback is that they are a bit higher priced than a regular Grade 8 or Metric 10.9 bolt, but these need to be used. They can also be drilled for lockwire as I did on my 1LE car.
Now for the LS1 bolts: The bolts are used on the LS1 cars are P/N 10229606 and are $.91 from Dal. They are 33.1mm in length (a little over an inch) and are what should be used here. Also, back to the 1LE bolts, we can use bolt P/N 11508133 which are M12 x 1.75 and can also be used here. These bolts are $2.19 from GMPD (didn't ask Dal about these) but will also work as the threads are the same.
Guys, let's not jump to the conclusion that the brakes aren't safe to run or install. This is simply a matter of the bolts backing out for some reason...this doesn't mean the brakes are gonna fail on you. We just need to take these steps to make them a bit safer. I will only use these bolts in the future.
HTH....
Ed
Last edited by ebmiller88; 07-07-2004 at 06:33 PM.
Originally posted by SinthetikIroc any ideas why they did this? and why they do not come off on a stock setup?
Could there possibly be a flaw in the LS1 brake set up itself? IIRC this exact same thing occured on my buddy's stock '98 Z28. Had to replace a caliper, rotor, line, and beat up his wheel pretty bad, but it was saved. I'll ask him to see exactly what went on with his ordeal and let you all know.
-Efrain.
Guys, let's not jump to the conclusion that the brakes aren't safe to run or install. This is simply a matter of the bolts backing out for some reason...this doesn't mean the brakes are gonna fail on you. We just need to take these steps to make them a bit safer. I will only use these bolts in the future.
Again, I can hardly call a bolt backing out a flaw with the whole brake system...let's not go overboard here.
if anybody wants to, the caliper bolts i used are off of a 2000 Mustang, they are flanged and they come with red loctite on them, and they are 10.9. they are the right length. i work at a Ford dealership so these were easy to come by for me. i had the car out on the track first week in june and they are AWESOME. no problems.
looking at the pics, i'm a little confused. do the carrier mounting bolts thread into the carrier or the bracket you have to fabricate? I'm getting ready to do this upgrade, i had intended to safety wire anyway but i would like to point out that the mating surfaces must be perfectly flat, and the bolt shank must fit closely to the inside diameter of the hole it passes through. uneven mating surfaces or loose fitting bolt shanks will result in the carriers and bracket moving in relation to one another and result in a loss of bolt torque. If this occours even safety wiring wont prevent the bolts from loosening.
I would suspect that the differences in fabrication or hardware chosen might be the cause of the failure.
I'm banking on hardware choice, not fabrication. The brackets are flat plate steel and the bosses on the carriers are flat from GM, no issues there. The brackets are not threaded although I did look into that. The spindle is threaded and the carriers are threaded.
If you look at the large 1LE bolts, half of the bolt is smooth and half is threaded. The entire LS1 mounting bolt is threaded. The holes are .500" and the bolts are M12, and it's a tight fit.
Like I said, gotta be fastener choice. I have GM bolts coming from Dal soon.
This happened to friend of mine on his 2001 Trans Am. His rear caliper came loose and put a groove in the wheel. He had removed the calipers for painting and when he put them back on he did not use loctite.
So even the correct (factory) fasteners can fail if you don't install them correctly. This is not meant as a bash on jcsws6. The factory has loctite on their bolts for a reason.
Also I personally don't suggest trying to retighten a bolt after it's been installed with loctite. You'll break the loctite up and then it can't do it's job.
I just re-checked my bolts on my front brakes. I am happy to say all bolts are tight. I was lucky during the install that I had some perfrect sized factory flange head bolts. However, I have less than a thousand miles on set up(probally closer to 400). Anywho, thanks for the up date.
On a side note, the LS1 brakes all around kick a**! This thing STOPS!
Hi guys,
I mistakenly posted this as a new thread. But here goes. I've finally decided to undertake this project. I've started compiling the part but have come up with a problem. I can find the wheel studs I need. I tried rockauto and parts america but failed to find them. I can't get NAPA because they don't ship to Puerto Rico. Our local parts stores are Pep Boys and Western Auto but I need specs to see if they have them. I need length, size, and thread pattern. Anything that'll help me find them. I'm also having a little bit of a problem locating used ls1 calipers and brackets. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Originally posted by galletti Hi guys,
I mistakenly posted this as a new thread. But here goes. I've finally decided to undertake this project. I've started compiling the part but have come up with a problem. I can find the wheel studs I need. I tried rockauto and parts america but failed to find them. I can't get NAPA because they don't ship to Puerto Rico. Our local parts stores are Pep Boys and Western Auto but I need specs to see if they have them. I need length, size, and thread pattern. Anything that'll help me find them. I'm also having a little bit of a problem locating used ls1 calipers and brackets. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I used ARP studs on mine, they 12mm x 1.5 thread, 2.5 in long. .509 knurl diameter. i got all my stuff off www.ls1tech.com, try www.ls1.com too
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the part numbers for the Mustang bolts are N805163-S100, they are about $5.12 each. and i forgot that i did have to grind off just a little bit on the lower bolt on each side. they might not be cheaper or the perfect length, but they were easy for me to get and i noly paid about $10.00 for all four.
I'm a little confused about what bolts loosened. Was it the bolts holding the adapter bracket to the spindle, those holding the caliper carrier to the adapter bracket, or those holding the caliper to the carrier?
Used the tech article as a guide, Made a shim, out of PVC pipe turned down on a lathe and a bit of electrical tape to fine tune, to keep flange centered so when I drilled/bolted the flange it stayed centered well and shoes for parking break do not rub. Turned out great!
Ed I saw where you showed the differences in the front calipers and the brackets between the LS1 and C5. Did you happen to look and see if there were differences in the rear also?
Thanks for clearing up the confusion on the loosening fasteners Ed.
I have not had any trouble with my setup. I have lock washers on the carrier/bracket bolts and have them torqued to 74 ft/lbs. The first time out I was concerned about bolts loosening so I checked everything a few times that day. I have already had to replace the first set of rotors because of the cracks on the rotor surface. The bolts were nice and tight when I removed the carriers.
I'm off to Virginia International raceway (VIR) this weekend to try out some new brake pads that have a lot more bite. They should stop much better and not overheat the rotors as bad.
I've been following this post for a long time, and I must say, Great work guys! This is definitely an improvement my firebird will receive.
Regarding the bolts that have loosened, I have a question. Once everything is assembled, and all the parts fit, would it be possible to weld it so it stays tight? Either welding the bolts so they can't back out, or even welding the whole piece also.
I would think the only pieces that can't be welded are what has to be removed to change pads/rotor. Does the caliper carrier have to be removed to get the pads/rotors off? If so, then the only part that could be welded would be the adapter bracket to the spindle.
What kind of steel is the spindle? Would welding weaken the spindle? If the heat of a weld would be bad for that steel, a guy could just put a small bead on the bolt to keep it from backing out, right? Once the spindle has had the old caliper carrier cut off, there's no going back anyway, right? I would think that would mean there's no reason not to make the adapter plate a permanent part of the spindle.
any thoughts??
EDIT: I just looked at some pics again, and it looks like the caliper carrier has to be removable to get the rotor off. Is that right? If so, the only part possible to weld would be the adapter plate to the spindle.
Last edited by black89ws6; 07-31-2004 at 11:10 PM.
The only part you would be able to weld is the custom bracket to the bolts that hold it to the spindle. That is assuming the bracket wont weld to the spindle too well. The bolts for the caliper carrier have to be removed to take out the rotors.
I really dont see anything wrong with just tack welding the bolt heads to the adapter plates, then to get them loose you'd just have to grind the tack weld away. That's all you'd need to keep the bolts tight.
My solution to the issue is to use a better (factory GM) bolt along with a lockwasher and threadlocker, and safety wire if you deem in necessary. It's important to understand that once you tighten the bolts with a threadlocker and give it time to set up that you CANNOT tighten or loosen the bolt or the threadlocker is useless now. IMO, proper torqueing, bolt use and a lockwasher should prevent this issue from coming up.
I have no threadlocker on mine at the moment, just a lockwasher, and my bolts are still tight...it's not an issue for everyone.
However, I have less than a thousand miles on set up(probally closer to 400). Anywho, thanks for the up date.
