98+ CAMARO “LS1” Brakes: Bigger & Better Period

[ebmiller88]

Me? Stainless split washers.


Ed

[89 Iroc Z]

I am finally about to do the LS1 brake swap (there has been many postponements) and I was thinking about which proportioning valve would work best and this is what I came up with…

First I figured out the surface area of each brake setup:
The C4 and 1LE piston is 1.5 inches in diameter. So that’s 1.767 sq. inches of surface area per piston. So 1.767 (sq in of 1 piston) x 4 (pistons) = 7.068 surface area total.

The LS1 brakes are 1.75 inches in diameter, so that’s 2.405 sq. inches of surface area per piston. So 2.405 (sq in of 1 piston) x 4 (pistons) = 9.62 surface area total.

I never measured the size of the piston on the stock front brakes but I found in another thread that the stock brakes have a 2.375 inch piston. So 4.430 (sq in of 1 piston) x 2 (pistons) = 8.86 surface area total

Since the 1LE calipers actually have less surface area then stock calipers (1LE’s made up for by the larger caliper) GM probably routed more brake fluid to them in the 1LE proportioning valve then the stock proportioning valve. So following this pattern of thinking using the 1LE valve on LS1 brakes would transfer to much power to the fronts and the stock valve would be a better match.

Does anyone know the actual percent ratio of each valve? Or has anyone tried both valves on there LS1 setups?

Edit:
In the parts store the stock piston is listed as a 2.5 inch. If that is the case here is the revised version of the surface area for the stock piston.
2.5" = 4.909 (sq in of 1 piston) x 2 (pistons) = 9.818 surface area total

[89 Iroc Z]

Also it would be really helpful if someone could scan up brake servicing pages out of a 98+ 4'th gen service manual.... I'll ask on camaroz28.com

[Kory-88Iroc 350 tpi]

Does anyone know how much parking cables and backing plates for an ls1 rear cost and where the best place to get them would be? I just scored all the rest of the parts rear calipers,rotors pads/shoes ect from an 00 camaro for 50 bucks. I plan on going back to the salvage yard to try and get the backing plates and parking cables. They wouldn't come off last time. The bolt holding the cross pin in the posi is rounded off. and the cables are almost impossible to get , as the car is sitting on it's floor pan.
Thanks,
Kory

[ebmiller88]

www.tacreationsusa.com

Ed

[wilyk9]

Originally posted by ebmiller88
My solution to the issue is to use a better (factory GM) bolt along with a lockwasher and threadlocker, and safety wire if you deem in necessary.
Ed

Ed,
You have a PN for those bolts?

[ebmiller88]

Already did....posted earlier in this thread, around the top of the page:

Now for the LS1 bolts: The bolts are used on the LS1 cars are P/N 10229606 and are $.91 from Dal. They are 33.1mm in length (a little over an inch) and are what should be used here. Also, back to the 1LE bolts, we can use bolt P/N 11508133 which are M12 x 1.75 and can also be used here. These bolts are $2.19 from GMPD (didn't ask Dal about these) but will also work as the threads are the same.

Ed

[Roostmeyer]

Hey Ed, weird thing...I ordered the bolts 10229606. I got two of them, as I still had 2 of them from the junkyard. No threadlock on them, however, these are flanged bolts, not just straight up bolts like the other two I pulled off the spindles. They go into the carriers fine although they look like they may be a little long.

I just helped my dad machine the brake surface off with a brake lathe tonight and my buddy is going to machine the rest off this thursday. The brackets are coming along, just too many irons in the fire. Wideband came in today, and I think I'm finally going to get the 3.70's in the 9-bolt tommorrow.

[ebmiller88]

I noticed that too...the new bolts Dal sent me are not like the ones I pulled off another car, but I do like them better as they are flange head bolts and the ones from the car aren't. I don't know what's up with that. If they are a bit longer, take up the extra with a lockwasher to be safe.


Ed

[wilyk9]

Originally posted by ebmiller88
Already did....posted earlier in this thread, around the top of the page:
Ed

Thanks for reposting Ed. This thread is so long that it is easy to miss things.

[z28cdoyle]

Luke (89 Iroc Z?),
I did similar calculations on piston area when trying to decide whether I should change my master cylinder. I believe I got the same piston area values you listed.
For proportioning valve, I would recommend you install an adjustable one then you can set it to what you feel is the optimum. If you ever decide to modify the rear brakes on your car, you will be able to adjust for that change as well. Most guys on the board don't seem to like the adjustable valves though, so I'm in the minority suggesting one. It's kind of suprising to me since a lot of guys have modified/changed/upgraded just about every part on their car except the proportioning valve.
Since I have the adjustable valve, I cannot offer any suggestions on what GM proportioning valve would be best. Keep in mind though that the clamping force generated by the caliper comes from the brake fluid pressure not the volume of fluid moving to the caliper. The fluid volume dictates how far the caliper piston(s) move for a given brake pedal travel. Also remember that a proportioning valve limits fluid pressure to the rear calipers not the fronts. The front calipers always get full brake pressure regardless of what proportioning valve you use. If my thinking is correct, the 1LE valve would give you less rear brake than the stock valve (for a given brake pedal pressure, the increased surface area of LS1 pistons generates more front caliper clamping force than the 1LE meaning the rear calipers could have more pressure and do more of the braking work than the 1LE valve will allow). Of course this all goes out the window unless you have the 1LE master cylinder and the 1LE rear brake setup. If you don't, then the front/rear brake ratio (bias) the 1LE valve will provide must be recalculated to consider your rear brake setup. See why the adjustable proportioning valve is such a convenient solution?

Chuck

[Kory-88Iroc 350 tpi]

I just scored a complete rear brake set up off of a 00 camaro today for 80 dollars. The only thing I wasn't able to get was the parking cables. By any chance will my stock 88 rear disk parking cables work?
Thanks,
Kory
btw I bought the front calipers, cages and all associated hardware exept the rotors for 50 bucks.

[KagA152]

Well, Im up to like 540 miles on my setup. Several hard stops. I found a list of what size bolts require what torque, so i applied red loctite, and torqued em all down, and theyre still tight. Im running a 1LE prop valve on mine, but I can't say for sure what difference it made, but the car hardly dives at all, but i think spohn says the torque arm helps with that too...

[novass]

Originally posted by Kory-88Iroc 350 tpi
I will my stock 88 rear disk parking cables work?

Yup, Just have to open the eyelet a bit so it can go around the hook, you may also have to do a bit of rerouting, but other wise I believe it should work.

[Kory-88Iroc 350 tpi]

Thats great thanks for the info.
Kory

[firedawg225]

Originally posted by ebmiller88
I was gonna post on this earlier last night but I had to shrink the pics down when I got home to get them to fit in the forum...

Here's a pic of Jeff's caliper after the bolt(s) backed out on him at about 30 MPH. All I can say is check them often, use a torque wrench, and Locktite or equivalent.

Also, I STRONGLY suggest lockwiring (safety wiring) your bolts if you can and are able like I did on my 1LE car. It's not that hard and in this case could have saved the damage and worry caused by the wheel locking up. I suggest drilling a hole in the bolt heads and a small hole close to the bolts in the bracket and tieing them together with the lockwire. Links to how to install lockwire are here:

http://www.lrrsracing.com/RuleBook/lockwire.htm

http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

I'm glad to hear that no one was hurt when the wheel locked up but now Jeff's out a wheel, caliper, and other stuff, but we'll see what we can do to get him back on the road.

Ed

Yeah this happened on my 9 bolt to only damage thought was a little bit of material off my camaro aluminum rims. lucky for me. thanks for the tip to fix it.

[novass]

All done!
Turned out great. Did not have any problems with the bumpstop and the banjo bolt on the caliper interfearing.

Cant wait to get it aligned to see what they and the new Bilstein's and Pro kit will do!

Yah I know I had to ruin it with my ugly mug..

[novass]

Well I took it out for a spin, MAN these things stop GREAT. On a panic stop anything in the car ends up front . Night and day difference between the stock ones and these!

[galletti]

I know this has come up before but the thread is so long I couldn't find a real answer. I am going to install LS1 brakes on all corners and don't know which is the best proportioning valve. My car is originally drum rear. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[wilyk9]

I have gone back over this thread, and maybe I missed it, but what pads is everyone using on these brakes? I am doing this conversion as part of my suspension rebuild and want a good pad for the street that can handle occassional heavy braking, but prefer something that will not dust too bad. I have searched the boards, and it seems that ceramics may be a good choice, but can't seem to find a definitive answer.

I am considering the NAPA ceramic pads, but before I put out that much for the ceramics, I would like to hear from anyone that has them or anything similiar. Bendix titaniums also seem to be a popular choice here for the stock brakes, but what about for the LS1's?.

[novass]

Originally posted by wilyk9
Bendix titaniums also seem to be a popular choice here for the stock brakes, but what about for the LS1's?.

I used the titaniums, dont have much milage on them yet but I do like them. Still have to get thru the break in material on them.

[novass]

Originally posted by galletti
I know this has come up before but the thread is so long I couldn't find a real answer. I am going to install LS1 brakes on all corners and don't know which is the best proportioning valve. My car is originally drum rear. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I used : from my previous post

Just thought I would post the updated 1LE Prop Valve # for 4 wheel Disk brakes.

it is GM PART # 10164112 Late 89 to 92 valve 1.5M

I got my from dal for $65 shipped.

edit: I see you have a 88, this one has a different thread pattern, won't work for you unless you re plum your lines.... Don't have the earlier valve #

[ebmiller88]

Part number for the earlier prop is #14089496, mine was $55 shipped from Dal 2 yrs ago. Here's more prop valve info and part numbers:

http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LEfront

Ed

[89 Iroc Z]

I don't think the 1LE valve will be the best choice for the LS1 setup. Just a few threads up I talk about it...
http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...30#post1945869

Has anyone tried both valves on the LS1 setup?

[91formulaSS]

Originally posted by 89 Iroc Z
So following this pattern of thinking using the 1LE valve on LS1 brakes would transfer to much power to the fronts and the stock valve would be a better match. Does anyone know the actual percent ratio of each valve? Or has anyone tried both valves on there LS1 setups?

I thought the prop valve only affects the rears, and the fronts get 100%

[luke j]

about pad choice, i am using raybestos quiet stop pads. they
work pretty good on the street and i have had them on the track a few times and the the dust wasn't too bad. i will probably step up to some " (insert color here) Stuff " pads when i get some slotted rotors.

[Poltergeist]

Originally posted by wilyk9
I have gone back over this thread, and maybe I missed it, but what pads is everyone using on these brakes? I am doing this conversion as part of my suspension rebuild and want a good pad for the street that can handle occassional heavy braking, but prefer something that will not dust too bad. I have searched the boards, and it seems that ceramics may be a good choice, but can't seem to find a definitive answer.

I am considering the NAPA ceramic pads, but before I put out that much for the ceramics, I would like to hear from anyone that has them or anything similiar. Bendix titaniums also seem to be a popular choice here for the stock brakes, but what about for the LS1's?.

Most of the LS1 guys I know like the stock LS1 pads for 'sprited' street driving and occational track time. When I had to replace the pads on my 02 SS I went with stockers. They are relatively low dust and have a very good grip. Also when you buy the pads you also get the copper anti squeak plates and bolts for the calipers. I plan on using LS1 stockers for my El Camino when I install these brakes.

EDIT - also for you guys that might interested in them you can get some stickers for the front calipers that say Camaro, Firebird or Trans Am. I have a set on my 02. You can get them from After Thoughts Auto For anyone that might be interested.

Here's a picture of them on my calipers.