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I just wanted to let you all know what happened to the LS1 spindle bracket that some of you have been waiting for me to post. I was developing a bracket back in the summer until I found out that I needed a new engine so the project was put on hold for the time being. I wasn’t planning on posting the bracket until I finalized the design but I decided I’ll post what I have done so far and let someone else work on it because it will be some time before I can get to it. I am at college now and do not have access to my spindle / hub setup, which is at home. The bracket is 90% done, but still needs slight tweaking before it’s ready for use. You will probably need to move the caliper mounting holes slightly. This bracket is very similar to the C4 bracket I posted in the C4 post. I used the same cad file and moved the caliper mounting holes and made them smaller to accommodate the LS1 abutment bracket.
I ask if you get this to work to please post the finalized bracket.
EDIT: I have made an updated version of the bracket which is posted later in the thread, you must goto the next page.
Anyone make a bracket and post the final dimentions? I take it this bracket will be the same for the C5s? I know Todd has a C5 bracket design but I can't find the dimentions posted. I just picked up a set of '98 C5 brakes for the hell of it and thought I'd see what this setup is like.
Also, the calipers I just got seem to be identical to the LS1 caliper that Luke posted back on page 1 of this thread, so I figure the bracket will be the same.
Originally posted by ebmiller88 I figured I'd bring this one back to life.
Anyone make a bracket and post the final dimentions? I take it this bracket will be the same for the C5s? I know Todd has a C5 bracket design but I can't find the dimentions posted. I just picked up a set of '98 C5 brakes for the hell of it and thought I'd see what this setup is like.
Also, the calipers I just got seem to be identical to the LS1 caliper that Luke posted back on page 1 of this thread, so I figure the bracket will be the same.
Thanks....Ed
im working on doing the "LS1" brake swap, but i dont have the bracket made yet
between me moving back and forth from Texas to south carolina, i havent gotten it finished yet.
my current project hold up is im trying to find a wheel hub setup that i can mount a ABS sensor on.
Since the brakes I got are LS1s, I will be working on a bracket this weekend. It'll be similar to the C4 bracket, but I may change it a bit to make it easier to make. I made the C4 bracket by hand and it's a PITA...lost of small cuts to get it right. Also, the C4 style bracket involves removing the turn stop on the spindle. If you rotate the caliper up a bit, you should be able to eliminate this and make the bracket more rectangular.
I should have something to post on Monday at the latest.
Originally posted by ebmiller88 If you rotate the caliper up a bit, you should be able to eliminate this and make the bracket more rectangular.
I tried moving the caliper around but the only way I could make it work is the design I posted above. If you get it to work another way I would greatly appreciate it if you post the design.
Originally posted by ebmiller88 Since the brakes I got are LS1s, I will be working on a bracket this weekend. It'll be similar to the C4 bracket, but I may change it a bit to make it easier to make. I made the C4 bracket by hand and it's a PITA...lost of small cuts to get it right. Also, the C4 style bracket involves removing the turn stop on the spindle. If you rotate the caliper up a bit, you should be able to eliminate this and make the bracket more rectangular.
I should have something to post on Monday at the latest.
Ed
heh, you work somthing out, and i'll probly drive across the state to personally pick em up from ya...
I will be watching to see how things go with the bracket design. I have not started on a bracket yet. I just took a set of rotors to my local machine shop to have them turned into hubs. The guy I talked to said about $30 for the job. Not a bad price.
Once I get the hubs back; I'll be looking for a bracket. I have 89 IROC Zs design scaled and printed at the proper size. Unless someone else posts something better, I'll start with that.
Ed,
I was thinking about your comments on the LS1 bracket design compared to a C5 bracket. I have heard that the LS1 calipers and C5 calipers are almost identical except for the stiffening ribs and the manufacturing method.
The LS1 rotors are 12" though and the C5 rotors are 13" diameter. Wouldn't the C5 bracket have to be different than the LS1 bracket to mount the same caliper on a rotor 1" larger in diameter?
Originally posted by z28cdoyle
The LS1 rotors are 12" though and the C5 rotors are 13" diameter. Wouldn't the C5 bracket have to be different than the LS1 bracket to mount the same caliper on a rotor 1" larger in diameter?
The C5 rotors are actually 12.75 inches. Yes you are correct the C5 bracket will not work with F-body LS1 brakes. That’s why I posted my design above.
Originally posted by wlsmoku I apologize ahead of time for the ignorant question, but can you use a 4th gen spindle so you don't have to fabricate anything??
4’th gen F-body’s have a totally different spindle design and they are not interchangeable with 3’rd gen’s.
ok...well I bought the calipers, rotors, and spindles for $50, so now I'm in the same boat as the rest of you...we just need a test mule to get this thing hammered out
For those without a CNC or a CAD program, copy Luke's drawing into Word and blow it up to 168% of original size and print it out. That'll get you the right size.
OK, making progress here. First off, as discussed, the C5 bracket design will not work with the LS1s, the bolts would interfere with the spindle...just not enough clearance. Nice design but just won't work.
To Luke:
Second: On your design pictured below, the "C" (carrier) bolt holes need to be spaced out 1/16" further apart, just a minor tweaking. (Maybe it's just the way it printed out.)
Third: As viewed on the page, the carrier holes could be rotated "up" towards the top about 1/2", along the same arc of the curve, if you understand what I'm talking about. I have a bit of interference with the lower portion of the spindle since the caliper piston bores are so damn big, much bigger than a C4 caliper. I may drill another set of holes in the approximate location and see what that does. FIrst I'll just remove a bit more off the spindle in that area.
OK, maybe not 1/2" rotation...maybe 1/4"-3/8" or so, shich is like 1-3 degrees. Any more than that and the bolts would hit the spindle...unless you opted to use a socket head Allen bolt there liek Todd did with the C5 bracket.
I should have pics of the completed LS1 stuff tomorrow. I'm pretty much done and so far, here's what I have:
-3/8" thick bracket material
-(4) M12x1.75x 30mm (length) bolts- All will be the same here, unlike the C4 bolts which are M12 and M14 (2 each)
-Unless you don't mind grinding a bit on the caliper carrier, which I will not do, you must grind a little metal off the head of bolt #3, the 3rd one down (the lowest spindle bolt). It will come in contact with the caliper carrier if you don't. There's not as much room here as with the C4 bracket- different mold design.
-You must use a small thickness washer (1/16"-1/8" or so) between the bracket and the caliper carrier for 2 reasons:
1- To assist in clearing bolt #3, as described above
2- To center the rotor in the carrier.
I'm about done...I have to get different washers for the spacing issue and make the brackets out of steel. I make templates out of plexiglass and fit it all up first to make sure my dimentions are right.
Luke: Nice work AGAIN on the bracket. Other than the small spacing issue I mentioned, it's perfect.
Ed
Last edited by ebmiller88; 10-19-2003 at 04:50 AM.
Ed,
Was you final plexy template right on? If so do you have a flat bed scanner that you could put it on and scan it? And Post the pic. If the overall outside of the brackt is the same as the posted template I should be able to take the original cad file and update it to finished form and repost it.
For everyone who wants to print out that cad file to scale:
The best way to do it is to get a copy of autocad off someone. It has an advanced setup where you can scale your printer so it will print perfect copies. If you take the pic I posted above rescale it and print it the scaling percent will be different for each person because each printer is different. So as Ed said above scale it in word to 168% this will only work for him everyone else should have to scale it slightly different number to get the right size.
If you can’t get a copy of auto cad you can download Volo View Express. This program is free and will allow you to open and print cad files. The only downfall is it doesn’t have an advanced printer setup like Autocad does so you have to keep adjusting the scale in printer settings until you get it right (the scaling percent is different for every printer) If you are using volo view do the following:
1) Download and open my cad file
2) Goto file --> Page setup --> Drawing setting tab and uncheck “fit drawing to page”
3) Print a copy of the of the file
4) Goto file --> print and where it says “reduce/enlarge” increases or decrese this percentage as needed
Ed,
There is no way to get this bracket printed perfectly to scale without Autocad. So I am reluctant to edit the cad without you getting a perfect printout of the bracket as a base.
Nova, My plexi template was very good, but after I moved the carrier holes out 1/16" each, per the drawing that I printed out. As Luke stated, it may have just been my printer and his drawing may be right on.
Here's the first pic of the hub and bracket on the spindle. It looks VERY much like the C4 stuff, but the carrier holes are moved in about 1/2" toward the hub in this bracket. I don't have an exact measure, rough guess. I'll get that later:
Back view. Note how BIG the piston bores are and how tight everything is, not much clearance left. I will be grinding more metal off of various places to loosen it up a bit, however nothing touches at the moment:
(I know...passenger caliper, driver's side spindle...)
PS: See more pics with details at the link in my sig.
__________________ Ed Miller
Flynbye Performance LLC
Fort Mill, SC, USA
1991 RS, 305 TBI/A4: stock W/ K&N, BMR LCAs and adj. panhard rod, Jamex STB, LS1 alum D/S, KYBs, and Corvette 13" C4 HD brakes;
1988 IROC L98/A4: K&Ns, TPIS Fast Pack, gutted MAF, MSD 6A, SLP 1 5/8" headers, Dynomax cat-back, Spohn SFCs, 1LE brakes, Earl's SS lines, ES bushings, Eibach Pro-Kit, Hotchkis STB, Moog stuff, BMR LCAs and adj. panhard rod, KYBs;
1970 RS, needing a lot of TLC.
Ed,
Do you plan on putting them on you car? If so could you let us know which you think preforms better c4 or LS1. Also, do you need 17" rims for these to fit?
This may be wierd, but I have no plan on installing these on my car at the moment. I still have to get the RS repaired from the Labor Day weekend accident and that's first priority. We will more than likely be testing them out on Mark Lock's car (Lock), or another local guy's car if that falls thru. I don't know when we'll have time to get to it, I'm busy for the next month or so.
I have yet to pull a wheel off to see, but I am positive these will fit inside 16" wheels. I may try to test fit it today.
Originally posted by ebmiller88 This may be wierd, but I have no plan on installing these on my car at the moment. I still have to get the RS repaired from the Labor Day weekend accident and that's first priority. We will more than likely be testing them out on Mark Lock's car (Lock), or another local guy's car if that falls thru. I don't know when we'll have time to get to it, I'm busy for the next month or so.
I have yet to pull a wheel off to see, but I am positive these will fit inside 16" wheels. I may try to test fit it today.
Awesome work. You make me wish I would have never assembled my 1LE upgrade Anyhoo - I have a question in terms of safety (definitely not a criticism!). I highlighted a section on one of the pics you posted and attached it below. This area, IMHO, looks way to thin IF these spindles are going to see street time (understandably they could just be mockup spindles). Just pointing this out. I know that the majority of the force will be on the top and bottom of the area I highlighted and not on that area. But, in any case, there it is.
Tim
__________________ 2005 Subaru STi, Got RlCE?
My old 11 second 1990 IROC-Z (sold to TGO Member 92 Formula)
Hey ed,u gonna make this kit available, I know it would prolly be in the future when u work out all the kinks. When and if u do, let us all know. Keep up the good work!:yourock:
Tim, I would have passed on the 1LEs also, even for the C4s. These mods are much more economical.
I understand your concern with that area. It's really a matter or how you make that cut and how much you grind off, but I feel there's still a substantial amount of metal there. I really just cut it at the wrong angle. If you can follow me, when looking at that pic, if I cut it at more of a "11 o'clock to 5 o'clock" angle instead of the "1 o'clock to 7 o'clock" angle I did, there would be a bit more metal in that area. That's also the view from the back side. IIRC, I sanded that area with a disc sander at an angle to get more clearance for the piston bore. There would be more "meat" if viewed from the front. But still, it HAS to be clearanced to get the LS1 caliper to fit and have the free movement that it needs. In any case, if it gets to be a problem, a viable option would be to go with the C4 kit which doesn't need that much clearance. Next time I do the cut, I will mock up the bracket and mark the line parallel to the back of it and cut THAT line instead of the line I cut this time. I've been modding the spindles free hand so I get variable cuts every now and then....I'm still a rookie!
Also, note where the lower carrier bolt is. I will mod another set of spindles and see if the turn stop can be left in place. I feel it could be trimmed just a little and then use a socket head bolt for more clearance and keep that part of the spindle there.
Ed
Last edited by ebmiller88; 10-23-2003 at 07:58 AM.
I am in the process of installing this setup on my car too.
I have been wondering about the master cylinder myself. I took some measurements and did some calculations. The results were interesting.
The amount of hydraulic advantage you get from a brake system and the caliper piston travel is related to the piston area of the master cylinder and calipers. A larger caliper piston with the same size master cylinder piston generates more braking force. But the caliper piston moves a smaller amount. This is what we'll have swapping to LS1 brakes without changing the master cylinder.
By my measurements the stock GM single piston calipers have a 60.5mm piston. This is equivalent to about 2873 square mm.
The LS1 calipers have two 44mm pistons. This is an area of about 3039 square mm.
Hmm...seems like a big difference at first but when you calculate the percentage difference it turns out the LS1 caliper piston area is only about 6% more than the stock caliper.
Of course the biggest concern is whether the stock master cylinder can move enough fluid to move the LS1 pistons far enough to activate the brakes. I think that is a small enough difference that it is worth trying the stock master cylinder to see how it performs. Of course I may change my mind before this is all done but it is something to consider.
cool... i know you're still cutting them freehand, but it would be slick if you could cut it so that it followed the curve of the piston/caliper....
is there any reason the caliper cant go up and tilt in a lil more as viewed in that back pic? i mean like rotate clockwise on the rotor a lil bit for that added clearance by the bolt...
I am in the process of installing this setup on my car too.
[snip]
Of course the biggest concern is whether the stock master cylinder can move enough fluid to move the LS1 pistons far enough to activate the brakes. I think that is a small enough difference that it is worth trying the stock master cylinder to see how it performs. Of course I may change my mind before this is all done but it is something to consider.
Definately a good catch on the calculation. Be sure to let us know how it works. I know that I'd sure like to have better brakes on this beast, sometimes those 75mph-0mph traffic jam stops get hair raising.
How about a LS1 caliper and a cradle with 1LE narrow type bolt pattern.
Jerry, I saw those calipers on Ebay too, and I was wondering what's up with those? They are different than any LS1 caliper set I've seen here in the US: brake line comes in from the bottom and the carrier holes are mounted different. I wonder what's the specifics on them? But it may just do the trick....
Mr. Doyle, you're running a stock 4 wheel disc master, correct?
Ed
Last edited by ebmiller88; 10-24-2003 at 06:26 AM.
Originally posted by ebmiller88 Jerry, I saw those calipers on Ebay too, and I was wondering what's up with those? They are different than any LS1 caliper set I've seen here in the US: brake line comes in from the bottom and the carrier holes are mounted different. I wonder what's the specifics on them? But it may just do the trick....
Ed
With the seller from HEIDELBERG, VICTORIA, Australia the calipers must be from a Holden brand of car. ( GM in Australia ) How do you like the way he has them listed for a 2003 Camaro. I wonder if a US caliper and pads will fit in that cradle.
How do you like the way he has them listed for a 2003 Camaro
Yeah I liked that, and I'm thinking Holden also... maybe the Monaro/GTO?? The last set the seller had went for $81, and I'm tempted to just buy them to see how they would fit. I'm almost positive that the calipers would work, just with a custom brake line. But the bracket may be a plus also.
Quote:
do they use the same caliper or are there diff ones?
I guess we could do the same search as the rotor and see what we come up with.
with regards to the master cylinder, couldn't you use one out of a 98 and up f body that had these brakes to begin with? I've got a 4 wheel disc setup on my car factory(90 gta). Will I need to look for a new master cylinder?
