98+ CAMARO “LS1” Brakes: Bigger & Better Period - FAQ Board - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

89 Iroc Z · 06-02-2003, 10:44 PM

I decided to start a new thread about the LS1 brakes instead of adding this onto my C4 brake swap thread as originally planed.
For all of you who want to know about the C4 brake swap go here: http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=142115 (1LE alternative... may just work)
Please read through the C4 swap post before asking questions it is very similar to the LS1 swap.

I got my LS1 front brakes in the mail today and all I can say is they are HUGE! I hope they fit under my 16-inch wheels, if not I will trim down the cooling fins with a grinder. The LS1 brakes have more pad area, bigger pistons, and a thicker rotor then 1LE or C4 brakes.

The mounting holes one the LS1 calipers are about 1/16 inch farther apart then the C4 brakes and use smaller bolts. So a new spindle mounting bracket design is needed (cannot use the C4 bracket). This is the main reason I decided to start a new thread.

The Baer (PBR) “Grand Touring [GT]” and GT+ brakes use the same caliper design as the LS1 brakes. In addition, the LS1 brakes are the same thickness rotor (1.25 inch) as the Baer GT brakes. As many of you know, Baer (PBR) uses stock GM parts, slaps a Baer logo on the caliper and charges an arm and a leg for there setups.

Brake Specs:

STOCK BRAKES:
Rotor Size: 10.5 inches
Rotor Thickness: about 1 inch
-Caliper specs
Piston Size: 2 3/8 inch, 2.375 inch
Total Pistons surface area: 8.86
Material type: Cast Iron

C4 NON-HD 12-INCH BRAKES:
Rotor size: 12 inches
Rotor Thickness: 0.81 inches
-Caliper specs
Piston size: 1.5 inch outer diameter
Total pistons surface area: 7.068 square inches
Material type: Cast Aluminum

C4 HD 13-INCH BRAKES:
Rotor Size: 13 inches
Rotor Thickness: 1.1 inches
-Caliper specs
Piston size: 1.5 inch outer diameter
Total pistons surface area: 7.068 square inches
Material type: Cast Aluminum

1LE BRAKES:
Rotor Size: 12 inches
Rotor Thickness: 1.05 inches
-Caliper specs
Piston size: 1.5 inch outer diameter
Total pistons surface area: 7.068 square inches
Material type: Cast Aluminum

98+ CAMARO BRAKES “LS1”:
Rotor Size: 12 inches
Rotor Thickness: 1.25 inches
-Caliper specs
Piston size: 1.75 inch outer diameter
Total pistons surface area: 9.62 square inches
Material type: Cast Aluminum via gravity cast

C5 BRAKES:
Rotor size: 12.75 inches
Rotor thickness: 1.25 inches
-Caliper specs
Piston size: Somewhere close to 1.75 inch outer diameter
Total pistons surface area: around 9.62 square inches
Material type: Cast Aluminum via pressure cast (stronger)

Q: Why is this brake setup called “LS1” brakes?
A: It is a lot easier to type LS1 instead of “98+ Camaro/Firebird”. In 1998 GM introduced the LS1 engine into the F-bodies that same year they also put bigger brakes and a few other goodies. I am just using LS1 as an easy way to identify the 12-inch, dual piston caliper brake setup on these cars. It is important to note that the "LS1" brakes also came on the V6 98+ Camaro / Firebirds also.

Q: Will the LS1 setup clear my stock 15 or 16 inch wheels?
A: This setup will not clear any 15 inch rims that came stock on thirdgens. Here are the rims that will work:
- Early model & Late model IROC 16 inch rims
- Some GTA and Firebird rims work some don’t you will need to read this post.
Some firebird/GTA rims need shims to space out the wheel, this can be done with GM part number 14091902 (.030 inches thick).

Q: Will my stock spare clear the LS1 brake setup?
A: No it will rub.

Q: What proportioning valve and master cylinder combo will I need to use the LS1 brakes?
A: I have not determined this yet. If anyone could find out what Bear Brakes uses on there thirdgen GT kit’s that would be greatly appreciated.

Q: What brake hoses should I use?
A: The stock hoses will work.

Q: What year Camaro / Firebird can I get these brakes off of?
A: All 98+ Camaro / Firebirds with the LS1 engine came with the 12 inch, dual piston caliper brake setup.

Q: What is a hub?
A: This is fully explained in the C4 brake upgrade thread (1LE alternative... may just work).

Q: What outer diameter should I take hub down to?
A: You should take the LS1 rotor with you to the machine shop and have them machine down the hub until it fits in the hat of the LS1 rotor. My hubs have an outer diameter of 5.85 inches.

Q: What is the difference between the LS1 and C5 brakes?
A: They are based off the same design but there are more differences then I originally though. The C5 caliper has stiffing / cooling ribs that extend the full length of the caliper. Where the LS1 caliper only has them on the back (as you can see in the picture below). The C5 caliper is produced by a method called pressure casting and the LS1 caliper is produced by gravity casting. This means the C5 caliper is stronger and more durable.

Q: Are the C5 and LS1 caliper interchangeable?
A: Yes, You can go to a parts store and purchase a C5 caliper and use it on a LS1 abutment bracket (mounting bracket, some times called a caliper carrier). The C5 and LS1 calipers abutment brackets are different though so only the calipers are interchangeable.

Q: What about the spindle bracket?
A: Here is my finalized bracket:
PDF format
Autocad 2002 file

Q: Where can I find out about putting C5 brakes on my car?
A: http://82lt1.cz28.com/brakes/brakes.html
Vexter was kind enought to make up a drawing of the C5 bracket which can be downloaded here.

Q: Brake Does and Don’ts
A:
- Do NOT make your spindle bracket out of aluminum!
- Always round off edges on your spindle brackets to reduce stress points.
-When replacing rotors or pads always perform proper braking in procedures before putting your brakes through its paces. I know it's tempting to slam on the brakes to test out your new setup but it's a lot better to many gradual and normal stops first to start a wear pattern going first.

Useful Part numbers:
- Front Left LS1 caliper #18042491
- Front Right LS1 Caliper #18042492
- Caliper abutment bracket (caliper carrier) 18026163

(If any measurement or information is wrong, please let me know)
Last updated: 01-24-2005

Fun legal disclaimer: Thirdgen.org nor I can be held responsible for any damage done to you or anyone else from the use of this information. The very nature of modifying brakes from factory setup can be very risky if not properly done. Always use common sense when modifying brakes if you are unsure about something have someone else do it for you who is knowledgeable or ask here!

Here is a picture comparing the C4 caliper (left) to the LS1 caliper (right)

89 Iroc Z · 06-02-2003, 10:45 PM

The C4 caliper is the same as the 1LE caliper except it has a smaller rotor opening

Another picture comparing the C4 caliper (left) to the LS1 caliper (right)

89 Iroc Z · 06-02-2003, 10:46 PM

The LS1 rotor has a different offset then the C4 rotor but this should help move the caliper out more so that I can squeeze in a thicker mounting bracket.

Another picture comparing the C4 rotor (left) to the LS1 rotor (right)

355SS · 06-02-2003, 11:22 PM

C5 uses a 12.75" x 1.25" thick rotors. The only difference in the LS1 and C5 calipers is the production method. C5 calipers are pressure cast making calipers slightly denser and more rigid. The ZO6 calipers and standard C5 calipers are the same except for the color. The part of the caliper that you are referring to as the "heat sink" is actually stiffening ribs, so avoid grinding if at all possible.

89 Iroc Z · 06-02-2003, 11:31 PM

Thanks for the info, post updated

machinist · 06-03-2003, 01:05 AM

I totally agree about the ribs. If you look at the caliper you can see how they are designed to strengthen the caliper, and also act as heat sinks. If you grind them off you will be weakening the caliper substantially.

89 Iroc Z · 06-03-2003, 01:19 AM

If they needed to be ground down it would only be a very small amount. Hopefully they will fit. 98+ Camaro’s have 16’s and these brakes. I am going to do a test fit tomorrow then I’ll see if I need to even worry about it.

I agree with you guys the cooling ribs do add some stability. But I also feel taking a hair off them to add a small extra amount of clearance would not be dangerous.

machinist · 06-03-2003, 01:38 AM

Just out of curiousity I did some checking on brake parts from A-Zone for this. There wasn't any designation as to LS1 or a standard camaro that I could find. If there is, then please let me know.

Rotors $ #55034 $38.99
Aimco Extreme $93.99

Calipers #C446
Caliper core $38
Caliper with exhange $37.40.
Total for caliper without core $75.40

So if these are the correct parts, for rotors and calipers without caliper cores, both sides $228.78

With extreme rotors $338.78

This is for NEW parts.

The calipers probably don't include the caliper carriers, but I'll check on these and let everyone know if I find a price on them.

89 Iroc Z · 06-03-2003, 02:05 AM

Not bad price for the whole setup new. Alloy, A.K.A. machinist your right the calipers do not come with carries so that’s probably another $90 if you get them from the dealer. Don’t know any other place to get them new.

I got my whole setup for $200 from a guy on a fourth gen board which included 2 calipers, 2 caliper carriers, 2 stock lines, 1 caliper rebuild kit, 4 abutment bolts, 4 stock pads, 2 stock rotors, 4 guide pins and bolts. The setup had 10k miles on it and it is as good as new.

machinist · 06-03-2003, 02:21 AM

The price isn't bad that bad is it. Just need to see how much the caliper carriers are.

Other than the rotors being thicker, what benefits do you see with the LS1 setup over the C4 stuff? From your pictures the brake pistons seem to be approximately the same diameter, so probably about equal braking force to the C4 calipers. The rotors are thicker, but not larger diameter.

89 Iroc Z · 06-03-2003, 02:37 AM

The befits of the LS1 over the C4 and even 1LE setup is a thicker rotor, which will help a lot to keep the brakes cooler, when doing spirited driving

. The LS1 brakes have bigger pistons (see specs above) and from what I have read are more efficient. Also I have read that they exert more braking force with the same amount of hydraulic line pressure. Therefore, it may use a different proportioning valve then the 1LE setup. I have to find out what Baer uses with there GT & GT+ setups

The C4 setup remains the ultimate swap for those who want need a budget brake upgrade and should perform with the same braking power as the 1LE setup.

The LS1 brakes are for those who are willing to spend a little more money then the C4 setup and have better brakes that should outperform the 1LE setup while still remaining lower cost then the 1LE setup.

355SS · 06-03-2003, 07:37 AM

Most of the benifit is going to be from the LS1 brakes having a larger pad unless you are overheating the C4 brakes. People call them LS1 brakes because they were released on the f-bodies at the same time as the LS1. So actually they are 98 and newer brakes and they came on all f-bodies of these years.

lock · 06-03-2003, 07:52 AM

You saying the C5 and LS1 calipers are the same? I think in the C5 thread that the C5 calipers were around $80.

machinist · 06-03-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

The LS1 brakes are more efficient, they exert more braking force with the same amount of hydraulic line pressure.

Luke,

What have you based this statement on?

89 Iroc Z · 06-03-2003, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lock
You saying the C5 and LS1 calipers are the same? I think in the C5 thread that the C5 calipers were around $80.

They are not exactly the same. As 355SS said “The only difference in the LS1 and C5 calipers is the production method”. Everything is interchangeable betweens the C5 and the LS1 Calipers; Brake Pad’s, Caliper carries.
Note: The C5 caliper does have a different caliper carrier, The mounting bolts are spaced differently.

Quote:

Originally posted by machinist
Luke,

What have you based this statement on?

I came to this conclusion after reading up on the late model PBR brake setup before I purchased a set of LS1 brakes. I used to have a bookmark to a site with tons of info, which I don’t have anymore because the computer that has the bookmark got all messed up I am going to reinstall windows. I will post the link once I get that computer up and running again.

lock · 06-07-2003, 07:54 PM

Any updates on installing the LS1 brakes 89 Iroc?

MartinCadek · 06-09-2003, 03:22 PM

thumbs up to all that participated in the C4/C5/LS1 threads , but this is a lot of info to read and make sense of for a novice like me seeking better brakes.

I think it would be awesome if you guys could write up some tech articles and submit them , they would make it a lot easier for all of us (not saying you haven't done enough , lol , but a final tech article or even a final post in each thread would help eliminate all the if's but's and maybe's).

in any case , thanks for all the info , now I need to decide just what swap to do , lol

RMK · 06-09-2003, 05:58 PM

89 Iroc Z

Any updates on this? I'm wondering if this setup will fit behind the 16" 87 IROC rims?

89 Iroc Z · 06-09-2003, 09:29 PM

Martin: I have already started a tech article for the C4 and LS1 brake swaps. I will finish it when I finish my brake swap.

Lock & RMK: I have got some measurements done. I very busy because taking summer classes. However, this weekend I should have some good quality time to finish the LS1 bracket design in CAD and get it posted. I’ll keep everyone posted.

In addition, I discovered that the C5 calipers are actually even more different from the LS1 calipers then I originally thought. I guess the internet is not always the best place to go for accurate information. I asked the guy behind the desk in the part store to show me a C5 caliper. The C5 caliper has stiffing ribs the whole length of the caliper and is all around stronger. I have also heard but not confirmed yet that the C5 caliper has a slightly different piston size. I will bring my measuring caliper to the auto parts store next time and get the real measurements. The LS1 and C5 calipers are interchangeable in the caliper carrier or abutment bracket as some call it. So I can upgrade from LS1 calipers to C5 calipers whenever I want without replacing the brake line, caliper carriers (abutment brackets), pads or rotors. For right now, I am sticking with the LS1 calipers.

RMK · 06-09-2003, 10:13 PM

Do you have a GM part # for the LS1 calipers?

89 Iroc Z · 06-09-2003, 10:49 PM

Front Left #18042491
Front Right #18042492

Rear Left, w/o Pads, Additional parts required. #12455127
Rear Right, w/o Pads, Additional parts required. #12455128

Thats all the info i could get at http://www.gmpartsdirect.com

lock · 06-17-2003, 01:56 PM

Any luck with the bracket 89irocz?

SDCal7 · 06-18-2003, 05:32 PM

I have all the parts needed for the LS brake conversion but also need the actual dimensions for the caliper adapter.

'89 IROC Conv with an '99 LS1 engine, 18" IROC Rims, Moog racing springs and Bilstein Shocks with 275/40-18 Nittos.

89 Iroc Z · 06-19-2003, 03:10 AM

I have a rough draft of the bracket and dimensions of the ls1 brakes sketched on some engineering pad. I need to get some more measurements, finalize the design, and have my roommate CAD it out.

I will keep everyone posted on the bracket design. I haven’t had time in the last 2 weeks because I am focusing on school and all my free time is devoted to fixing up my car so I can drive it to Maryland this weekend for the thirdgen nations. I am trying to fix my stock brakes which are totally messed up (I have another post about this) can’t wait to ditch them and go with the LS1 setup.

89 Iroc Z · 06-19-2003, 03:20 AM

ah double post

SDCal7 · 06-19-2003, 11:45 AM

Thanks for the update. I had to order a custom set of brake lines from Earls. Although they list a set for 98-02 brakes, according to Lloyd at Earls tech line, the length on some of the lines in the kit were not long enough. So he assisted me in getting the right lengths and correct ends. Let me know as soon as you figure out the dimensions for the caliper plate. The braided lines should be sent to me by the second week in July, which is when I'll start the job.
Bruce