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well the choice is yours but you can i did.just dont use any tools that will create sparks use hand held tin snips, cut three sides of a square so you can open the sheet metal like a door and will be able to close it when finished
alright ill tell your right now youll catch a lot of hell for even posting this. most people say its a hackjob and you should drop the rear and, drop the tank and then remove it. but it is a hell of a lot easier to cut a hole. like somebody up there said, use tin snips. you have to cut the lines to remove the pump obviously so make sure you get the correct fittings to put the lines back together. they'll be at your harware store. or if you plan on using some sort or rubber hose, make sure the hose clamps you use are going to be able to stand the PSI. but id say buy some actual fitting to save yourself from nightmares later. when you patch it up, do NOT weld. just get a piece of thin metal, dril holes in it, then place it over the hole in your cars floor. drill those holes. pop rivet the metal to the car. then use sort of sealent to seal the sides so no gas fumes leak through your car while driving. put your carpet back over and youll never know theres even a hole there!
and heres a picture of where you should cut the hole. birds and maros fuel pump is in the same exact place.
Its not that hard to drop the tank yourself....i dont know why people cut into their cars in places that are not supposed to be cut. It took me about 3-4 hours start to finish with my dad to drop my tank, coat it with some POR-15 and replace the pump and throw it back in there.
Its not that hard to drop the tank yourself....i dont know why people cut into their cars in places that are not supposed to be cut. It took me about 3-4 hours start to finish with my dad to drop my tank, coat it with some POR-15 and replace the pump and throw it back in there.
told you you'd find somebody that would get mad. im just going to say that the guy asked me how to cut the hole in the floor so i told him how to, not that it was the RIGHT way to do it, even though i cut a hole as well. if he asked what was the better way to do it, then i would have said the CORRECT way is to drop the rear, drop the tank. but this way is easier. hope i didnt upset anybody by expressing my opinions. i notice a lot of people on this site take offense to people sharing their piece of mind.
told you you'd find somebody that would get mad. im just going to say that the guy asked me how to cut the hole in the floor so i told him how to, not that it was the RIGHT way to do it, even though i cut a hole as well. if he asked what was the better way to do it, then i would have said the CORRECT way is to drop the rear, drop the tank. but this way is easier. hope i didnt upset anybody by expressing my opinions. i notice a lot of people on this site take offense to people sharing their piece of mind.
Oh im not mad at all, to each their own its your car lol. I just cant figure out why people would cut into their car where its not supposed to be cut. I really dont care how anyone works on their car cause its theirs not mine, i just always try and point people in the right direction.
Oh im not mad at all, to each their own its your car lol. I just cant figure out why people would cut into their car where its not supposed to be cut. I really dont care how anyone works on their car cause its theirs not mine, i just always try and point people in the right direction.
We also put in engines tires/ wheels/brakes on these cars that are "not supposed to be" on there, and remove metal from our intakes and heads "where it's not supposed to be cut". Just because the factory left it out doesn't make it "wrong".
I have worked on other cars (Dodge Intrepid) where there was a hatch designed into the car for this purpose, it makes it a 4 hour job on a lift into a 20 minute job in your driveway, and doesn't hurt the car. Not only is this not a stressed area in the cars' chassis, but with the double-thickness stainless plate I put back in, it's actually much stronger than stock. There is a difference between a hack job and a nicely done access plate, but some people seem to think sheetmetal on these cars is somehow magic, and cannot be touched by mortal hands. I just don't get it.
alright ill tell your right now youll catch a lot of hell for even posting this. most people say its a hackjob and you should drop the rear and, drop the tank and then remove it. but it is a hell of a lot easier to cut a hole. like somebody up there said, use tin snips. you have to cut the lines to remove the pump obviously so make sure you get the correct fittings to put the lines back together. they'll be at your harware store. or if you plan on using some sort or rubber hose, make sure the hose clamps you use are going to be able to stand the PSI. but id say buy some actual fitting to save yourself from nightmares later. when you patch it up, do NOT weld. just get a piece of thin metal, dril holes in it, then place it over the hole in your cars floor. drill those holes. pop rivet the metal to the car. then use sort of sealent to seal the sides so no gas fumes leak through your car while driving. put your carpet back over and youll never know theres even a hole there!
and heres a picture of where you should cut the hole. birds and maros fuel pump is in the same exact place.
Thanks a lot for posting this...I know ppl dont agree this is a good idea ...but like you said its a lot easier with the same results
I have a question though...Where is that you are cutting/removing carpet from???
Behind back seats??? or in the trunk compartment?? (anyway you can post a picture further out?)
Also ....Where is the fuel pump on the picture?? I see like 4 fuel lines and another rubber hose...Is it the black thing on the second fuel line from left (on picture)?
What you are looking at is right behind the rear seats, in the trunk. The fuel lines are on the front side. (standing at the rear of the car, the lines will be on the other side of the sending unit).
It is 4 fuel lines, one vent, one supply, one return, and I'm not sure on the last.
The other one you see is just the wires.
The fuel pump is at the bottom of the sending unit. The round thing has to come out.
You should have a ring that you turn, then you can pull it straight up and out. Fuel pump will be at the bottom. You will have to cut the fuel lines to get it out this way though.
What you are looking at is right behind the rear seats, in the trunk. The fuel lines are on the front side. (standing at the rear of the car, the lines will be on the other side of the sending unit).
It is 4 fuel lines, one vent, one supply, one return, and I'm not sure on the last.
The other one you see is just the wires.
The fuel pump is at the bottom of the sending unit. The round thing has to come out.
You should have a ring that you turn, then you can pull it straight up and out. Fuel pump will be at the bottom. You will have to cut the fuel lines to get it out this way though.
After you cut the lines ...and change pump and stuff...what is the best thing to re-connect the lines??
Its not that hard to drop the tank yourself....i dont know why people cut into their cars in places that are not supposed to be cut. It took me about 3-4 hours start to finish with my dad to drop my tank, coat it with some POR-15 and replace the pump and throw it back in there.
15 minutes vs 3-4 hours.....
Can be done with a full tank of gas vs having to drain the tank.....
Minimal tools vs lots of tools & grease....
Fixing it the way GM shoulda designed it to begin with.....
Side of the road repair vs a tow truck to get the car home.....
I can't think of any benefit to to do it the way GM designed it. I still think they did it to "make" customers come in & spens $ on repairs. Like the heater core. "Let's not make it easy for home repairs, when possible."
After you cut the lines ...and change pump and stuff...what is the best thing to re-connect the lines??
That depends on the fuel pressure you use.......carb'd vs FI, then FI depends on TBI vs TPI or even LT1 or LS1.
Carb & TBI are the easiest, since they a lower fuel pressure. Just a hose splice & standard clamps. Above that, you are using higher fuel pressures, whi (i don't think) a standard hose clamp can hold.
kcb37 has all the lines right and the fourth is for charcoal canister if I remember correctly and I personally would just drop my tank even though it is faster to cut a hole I like to work on my car and enjoy the time I spend doing it .
go to the parts store and get fuel injection fuel line and the fuel injection hose clamps, be sure NOT TO GET THE REGULAR FUEL HOSE OR CLAMPS. or use the brass compression fittings. both of these will work well. and also double clamp each end of hose if you go this route.
But the real question is......How do you cut the stock hard lines, without dropping the tank, causing sparks, or getting debris in the line?
Yes, a tubing cutter would be great, but not exactly any room around them, to spin a tubing cutter. So HOW?
I just did this access hole on a car(not my 89) and used my 3"cutoff wheel to make the opening in the floor.Made nice neat cuts in about 2 minutes.
I was then tempted to take the cutoff wheel to the hardlines but,decided I wasn't ready to blow myself up yet and used something different.
I got a little tool that is kinda like a screwdriver handle and you mount sawzall blades to it.
It worked out nice but,if I had some ground clamps to fit the lines,woulda deff. used the cutoff wheel.
I like fast easy stuff and this job took maybe an hour.
Since when is the way the factory manual states 'set in stone'? Did Moses come down from the mountain with that manual tucked under his arm? IT IS YOUR CAR! If you find a better, CHEAPER way of doing things, who GAF? It is called 'hot rodding'- LOOK IT UP!
CAI is not stock- IT IS HOT RODDING!
Headers are not stock- IT IS HOT RODDING!
Third gen dif swap is not stock- IT IS HOT RODDING!
20+ years from now, some snotnosed little twert will find your 3rd gen in a junk yard (if it is lucky) and will not care that you violated some geeks sense of what should or not have been done to it... just make sure he is awed by the twin turboed LS6 nitrous boosted monster that put your 3rd Gen in the yard in the first place!!
But the real question is......How do you cut the stock hard lines, without dropping the tank, causing sparks, or getting debris in the line?
Yes, a tubing cutter would be great, but not exactly any room around them, to spin a tubing cutter. So HOW?
I did this mod and glad I did. It allowed me to play with different mods like changing fuel pumps, different socks and re-wiring the pump to a dedicated relay. I've had mine out a couple of times- 2 years no leaks. But to each his own...
As far as the hard lines, here's what I did.
First, cut the hole as diagramed above. Next take the sending usit loose so you can raise it a few inches above the tank. Pick a spot in the main pressure line where you want to locate the brass compression fitting. Now use a pair of tin snips to cut the remaining lines near that location. You may have to remove a short section of the line closest to the main line for access. This gives you clearance to use a miniature tubing cutter on the pressure line. You'll have to do a little bending and prying on the lines to get access but you can fix that later- just don't kink any of them. When you have the sending unit out you can then use a cutoff wheel/hacksaw to make a better cut on the rest of the lines. Don't forget to clean up the ends of the lines left on the car. For reinstallation use a brass compression fitting on the pressure line and a good rubber fuel line and good clamps on the rest.
I made an aluminum plate that's 1" bigger than the hole and secured it with sheet metal screws.
Also, for a low cost upgrade use the Turbo Trans Am pump. It supplies enough fuel for a built motor, 200 shot of N2O and 7.98 in the 1/8 mile so far!
go to the parts store and get fuel injection fuel line and the fuel injection hose clamps, be sure NOT TO GET THE REGULAR FUEL HOSE OR CLAMPS. or use the brass compression fittings. both of these will work well. and also double clamp each end of hose if you go this route.
do you have a specific store in mind? i have to put in a complete fuel pump because im going from tbi to TPI and i need the return line, etc. both are electric so i dont think that is a problem, unless there is a power difference.
but i checked with a couple of stores and they dont have the lines.
and do you know where we can get a chart of where the lines have to go under the body?
Just curious, if you decide to cut a hole, do you still have to cut the fuel lines?
There is a way to snake them out, but this is dependant on just how big your access hole is cut. With the picture up above, it would be tough, but a slightly larger hole would allow you to snake the entire assembly out completely in tact, as all four lines connect to a different four lines right by the outside electrical connector that's located behind the rear seat. Three of them (vent, canister and return) simply clamp (if you can believe that), and the feed uses a fitting. In the picture I provided I "cut" the one with the fitting because I was in a hurry, not to mention I'm replacing it with a newer fitting that I have anyway, but in your case you would simply use two wrenches to disconnect the line....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin1989
EDIT: I mean if you decide to drop the tank, do you have to cut the fuel lines?
I'll never cut another one of those holes. Ends up being just as much work, and weakens an area that serves as a crush zone if you get rear-ended hard. I may even still have pics of that area being all twisted on my first '85 after a van ran into me. Anyway, if it had been cut, the impact woulda crushed the tank.
I'll never cut another one of those holes. Ends up being just as much work, and weakens an area that serves as a crush zone if you get rear-ended hard. I may even still have pics of that area being all twisted on my first '85 after a van ran into me. Anyway, if it had been cut, the impact woulda crushed the tank.
The plate I bolted on was much thicker stainless than the cheezy mild steel that is there stock, and was attached by 20 screws, zigzagged to not align with each other. It is much stronger than stock up there now. It's not doing it that is the problem, it's doing a crappy job. Be prepared to do it right and take your time. The payoff is in the NEXT time you need to swap out a pump.
You gotta be careful when you flex/bend the lines to get the tube cutter around them. Bend it too much and it will break away from the top of the sending unit and cause you too smell gas every once in a while.
On my daily driver 92 firebird, I cut the hole. Used a new piece of sheet metal with an approx 1" overlap of the hole and used black rtv silicone all around to seal it. I'll use pem studs, weatherstripping or something better the next time.
I did it for emergency purposes and saving money from getting towed. If I'm far from home when the fuel pump goes out then I'm in big trouble with the stock setup. If I have a hole in the back, all I need is a screwdriver, hammer, and maybe an hour to do a fuel pump swap.
I've done this mod as well... made life alot easier... fuel pump # 4 on the 83... I dropped the tank first time... after that... I decided next time it would get the access hole... cover plate is 1 inch larger than opening... screwed down and siliconed...
I can say that I would never cut mine out and did replace it the old fashion way. I found these stickies interesting and an alternative be it right or wrong. The picture was very well displayed with all dimensions available to anyone that wants to do this. I will not condemn anyone for this, but was just wonder if they put the carpet back over the hole when done?
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I can say that I would never cut mine out and did replace it the old fashion way. I found these stickies interesting and an alternative be it right or wrong. The picture was very well displayed with all dimensions available to anyone that wants to do this. I will not condemn anyone for this, but was just wonder if they put the carpet back over the hole when done?
There isn't any hole when you are done or you're not done, the entire area is plated and sealed. There are plugs under your carpet in your floorpan as well, that are only "Stuck" in with sealer goo. Do you put the carpet back over these holes?
If I decided to cut the hole I would cut my carpet around the patch on three sides to make a flap so I wouldn't have to pull the carpet to remove the cover next time also.
If I decided to cut the hole I would cut my carpet around the patch on three sides to make a flap so I wouldn't have to pull the carpet to remove the cover next time also.
If you fold the rear seat back forward, you'll see that the rear compartment carpet only goes to the back seat bottoms.
So you can pull the carpet back, cut the hole, then cover it back up & it won't look any different.
Mine was cut & it looks ugly. I want a new rear carpet piece now, because of it.
If you fold the rear seat back forward, you'll see that the rear compartment carpet only goes to the back seat bottoms.
So you can pull the carpet back, cut the hole, then cover it back up & it won't look any different.
Mine was cut & it looks ugly. I want a new rear carpet piece now, because of it.
Agreed, I took the whole rear carpet out of the car to make sure it didn't get metal tidbits on it, but it would be much easier to pull it up from in back of the rear seats and just ball it up into the storage well. The hardest part is getting the carpet back under the side panels. I got the carpet back under the rear seats and under the side plasics with a butterknife in about 10 minutes, that way cutting the carpet is not necessary, but it's your car and your carpet.
I was just saying if I could make it look like it wasn't cut and looked good so next time just lay the flap back and pull the cover and pull the pump . You wouldn't have to really move anything then . But thats only if you could make it look good if I couldn't make it look good I would replace the carpet and not try that again . I would like to see how the carpet looked cut and did you use anything to keep it in place like velcro or anything .
A previous owner did this to my 90 TA. I was tearing out my interior to find any rust spots and realized they did this. The problem I have is it looks like they might have cut through a very important structural piece. The part that worries me is on the bottom left side. I'll take pics of it tomorrow, but do you guys think it can be welded and fixed?
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To access only the pump section, there is no need for more than a 7" x 4" (approx) section to be cut out.
The hard part is cutting the hard lines, without dropping the tank (the first time only), and removing the pump assembly to cut the lines. After that is done, future pump/filter swaps will be a max 30 minute job.
A previous owner did this to my 90 TA. I was tearing out my interior to find any rust spots and realized they did this. The problem I have is it looks like they might have cut through a very important structural piece. The part that worries me is on the bottom left side. I'll take pics of it tomorrow, but do you guys think it can be welded and fixed?
Anything can be fixed. The important part is doing it properly. There are too many ways to screw things up doing it the easy way. Show us some pics.
Anything can be fixed. The important part is doing it properly. There are too many ways to screw things up doing it the easy way. Show us some pics.
I can't agree with this statement enough. Most of the people that take this "shortcut" route also take shortcuts in every way while doing the job, so the entire job comes out shoddy and dangerous. I was appalled at what I found on my Formula when I pulled the carpet up, and had to re-do virtually the entire job to feel safe driving the car.
I can't agree with this statement enough. Most of the people that take this "shortcut" route also take shortcuts in every way while doing the job, so the entire job comes out shoddy and dangerous. I was appalled at what I found on my Formula when I pulled the carpet up, and had to re-do virtually the entire job to feel safe driving the car.
TA
I don't feel this is necessarily a shortcut for everyone, but rather a helpful alternative for those without certain resources. Me for example. I live in an apartment, we are allowed one parking spot per household. Unfortunately that spot goes to my mother's old Cadillac seville that doesn't run, but she insists on keeping (keep in mind I'm only 19, I'm not some 40 year old creeper living with his mom). So I have to park my car on the street, and perform most of my repairs on the street also, which I've heard is illegal but a cop has yet to say anything. All I have are some tools, a small jack, and two jack stands, so I obviously lack the resources necessary to perform a repair of this caliber, I do not have access to a lift or someone to help me remove the rear end to remove the tank (this is the method that the haynes manual specifies). So theoretically I am incapable of doing a job like this, not because of skill or experience, but because of a lack of resources.
But I am entirely capable of a procedure that has been explained above, so the point I am trying to make, well in my case anyway, is that I would not be taking this shortcut because I am lazy, but because I would much rather do it myself than take it to a shop and pay someone to do something I could do in "30 minutes"
First of all this ain't no 30 minute job. Whether you cut the hole or drop the tank. At least not the first time. It isn't a short cut either.
As all mods/repairs go it really depends on the abilities and motivation of the person doing it. If you have a known bad pump and the facility to drop the tank by all means do it.
But if you're trying different things like swaping pumps, adding relays or whatever then the hole above the sending unit may be a good idea. Just do it properly and seal the hole with a good plate with gasket.
I did this mod and installed a Turbo TA pump. I didn't know then if it would be enough for my future plans. I pulled the pump a couple of times and later added a relay back there to increase the pump voltage. If I had not made the access hole I would have had to drop the tank several times. But it's not for everyone and it's not a purely good or bad modification. It depends on the reason you do it and the time you take doing the modification.
i cut the hole,you guys should try to drop the rear out of a 3rd gen from the northeast. <<<<<<<<<<<<< RUST>>>>>>>>>>>> i did my rear end swap with a torch and new bolts after every bolt seized to every bushing and the bushing sleeve spun with the bolt,hours of chiseling.i say screw dropping the tank.these cars were not made by some devine power.also im a 6yr nissan tech, and every car nissan makes has a plastic snap in cover above the fuel sender under the back seat.those cars meet saftey standards these could never.in short......... use good hose,good fittings,and double clamp.
alright ill tell your right now youll catch a lot of hell for even posting this. most people say its a hackjob and you should drop the rear and, drop the tank and then remove it. but it is a hell of a lot easier to cut a hole. like somebody up there said, use tin snips. you have to cut the lines to remove the pump obviously so make sure you get the correct fittings to put the lines back together. they'll be at your harware store. or if you plan on using some sort or rubber hose, make sure the hose clamps you use are going to be able to stand the PSI. but id say buy some actual fitting to save yourself from nightmares later. when you patch it up, do NOT weld. just get a piece of thin metal, dril holes in it, then place it over the hole in your cars floor. drill those holes. pop rivet the metal to the car. then use sort of sealent to seal the sides so no gas fumes leak through your car while driving. put your carpet back over and youll never know theres even a hole there!
and heres a picture of where you should cut the hole. birds and maros fuel pump is in the same exact place.
your diagram was the basis of my fuel pump access panel. thanks.
The plate I bolted on was much thicker stainless than the cheezy mild steel that is there stock, and was attached by 20 screws, zigzagged to not align with each other. It is much stronger than stock up there now. It's not doing it that is the problem, it's doing a crappy job. Be prepared to do it right and take your time. The payoff is in the NEXT time you need to swap out a pump.
TA
ta your the one i got that idea from when i did mine. could not remember who i got it from but it was you.
thanks again.
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