hey all, I remember when I was younger I used to read High Performance Pontiac magazine , my older brother had a 79 400 T/A with a 4 speed (with pontiac engine power I always told his ford and mopar friends proudly!) he was my hero, the mag was also called Thunder Am origiannly in those days if I remember. They had an article I recall where they interviewed a pontiac engine desinger (before they went the GM corprate way). He said pontiac and chevy had planned to use their own motors like they always have. He said they even had many left over 400 engines laying around and asked about putting one in the new design, he was politiely told no. He said when they originanly designed the firebird the idea was to use the pontiac turbo 301. He said they tweaked 200HP out of it with decent gas mileage at the time. They thought that would be perfect with the smaller and lighter 3rd generation firebird. He said he knew not everyone liked the 301 as a high performance motor but it wasn't designed to be that. Just a small V8 with decent gas mileage. He said when they were notified that the 400 motor was being fazed out they had no choice and were pretty much ordered to make a smaller fuel efficent V8 and the cars sold quite well at the time, they were very popular as I remember.The turbo was actually a good way to get some power out of that little anemic motor. Then the rest is GM history I suppose, the end of an era. GM started using corprate engines. I wonder what would have happened if pontiac could have kept their little V8 and actually improved it with better heads and so on. Could have kept the pontiac vs chevy vs ford battle going on. I wonder. Look what buick did with the 3.8 V6 that came out I beleive in the mid to late 70's and squeezed 250+hp in the mid 80's. Had pontiac being given that chance who knows? Does anyone else remember reading this article or hearing about it? just thought you'd like to know.

I have a bunch of old high performance pontiac magazines and i remember reading that the 82 was to originally have the 301 and that pontiac had spent a bunch of money making it work.I thought it was due to emissions that they killed it but your explanation may be right.Very interesting read to say the least.

I think one of the MAJOR reasons why the Pontiac engine was droped was due to money and the fact that Chevy Engeneers whine and cry a lot.

It was probably discovered that the Pontiac Engine would out perform their little 305, so Chevy once again got their way and the Pontaic Engine was droped. Just like back in 64? when Pontiac made a 336 engine, but Chevy was upset because they only had a 327, therefore the 336 was called a 326, and the following year the displacement was changed to 326. AND back in 87 when the Buick GN and GNX was beating the snot out of anythign with a Chevy (Including the Vette) and the GN line went away.

John

Well,in 88 all rear drive G bodies went away and they went to the underpowered front drive platform.Were they still considered G bodies after they went front drive??

I have all the Thunder Am/High Performance Pontiac magazines dating back to Vol 1/Issue 1 from Febuary 1980.

From what I have read in some of the older issues when the Turbo 301 was new it was planned to be used in the Pontiac line and other divisions as it was already known that GM was heading towards division wide "corporate" engines. As a matter of fact, a few hundred 1980 Z28's were fitted with Pontiac Turbo 301 engines.

As things got closer to the introduction of the 3rd-gen and Chebbie was realizing that their Crossfire 305 was going to be an underpowered pig the entire Pontiac V8 line's fate was sealed. The Turbo 301 in the new lighter 3rd-gen would have blown away the Camaro and possibly even the Corvette.

By that time many of GM's divisions cars where plagued by Chebbie V8 engines. Mainly only the performance cars got their own division engines still. Since the a##hole CEO Roger Smith was all about cutting costs and turning GM into a bland boring cookie cutter car company GM wasn't going to allow Pontiac to just make a small portion of Pontiac V8 engines. The last Pontiac V8 rolled off the assembly line in the summer of 1981 and the plant was converted to make only Pontiac 4-cyl Iron Duke engines.

A 1982 Trans Am with a Turbo 301 would have been one hell of a car for the times.

I remember something about the Rear wheel drive Buick GN/Regal's production lingered on for a few months longer than the Grand Prix, Cutlass and the Monte Carlo because the Demand and so many orders were placed for the GN in 1987. I am not sure if they were 88's or 87 production year however.

You are correct however, the "G" body Line was changed over to FWD, and obviously the use of a 3.8L Turbo in a FWD car would have torn it apart. So Buick swithed over to Supercharging some where after 1988 in their large cars.

However it should be noted that the Regal was not the only car to get the Turbo Buick engine. We all know of the TTA, but the Rivieras got a version of it as an option until 1985, although it was not the intercooled powerhouse of the 86 or 87 model years.

With that said, the engine was capable of making too much power for Chevy's taste. It is also a little known fact that the Buick Turbo V6 was going to be fitted as an option on the 1990 Firebird line as well, but was cancelled. Some speculate because of the cost, and the slow sales of the over priced TTA 20th anniversary car, but I believe it was more likely from whining chevy engeneers, because the TTA was faster than a Vette.

John

I also remember I think in Thunder Am/High performance pontiac in 81 or 82 they said pontiac had a bunch, I think it was a lot, of 400 motors left over from 79 in a warehouse collecting dust that GM wouldn't let them do anything with. They probaly got scrapped. Are the bowtie execs still mad because pontiac kicked their but on the track and street since the 62 swiss cheese catalina 421 up through the SD 455 T/A and even into the late seventies, (It cant be bandit envy could it? espically in the showroom sales remember 79? Just curious, was any first gen camaro with a small block or even the 396 faster than a firebird 400 ram air IV?(i'm not chevy bashing, I like chevys, a little friendly competion is more fun at the track and on the street and at car shows)

now i think of it high po pontiac also ran an article about a 280HP SD iron duke 4 banger engine for the fiero that the pontiac boys were tinkerin with, they used some parts from their race program but it would have been street legal..I think they may have built one I'm not sure.(chevy really killed the fiero, good idea, too ahead of its time). Can you imagine the look on the vette guys face as you blow past him and stayed that way in second gear? I think they said the vette guys found out and you know the rest of the story....

If you look at some of the pre-production photos of the '82 Trans Am you can see the hood bulge decal says Turbo 4.9. Year One has a picture of a black and gold car in their cataloge somewhere with this decal,. Chris

All Pontiac 400 engines were gone by early 1979. Pontiac 400 engines used in the 1979 model year were stock piled from the 1978 model year. About 8000 or so engines were warehoused and when the supply was gone the option was canceled. This is why the '79 Pontiac 400 powered Formula and Trans Ams are so desirable.

I think they were called W bodies after this.

I think you are correct, however odd it may seem, my 95 supercharged Riv, and the Aurora from 95-99 at least was the "G" body.

John

I do believe that a 375hp 396 Camaro could beat up on a 69 Ram Air IV Firebird. The heads on a 375 396 would outflow the 400 IV's on the big end. That solid lifter cam in the Chev would pull a little harder on top as well.

I dunno about that.... but even if it did at the end of the day its still "just another Chebbie"

That pontiac 301 was a complete waste of money IMO. It had no stroke what so ever and without the turbo it wouldnt have beat a slant six aspen... Im glad those things didnt end up in our cars... And as for the 79 trans am debate, Dens71TA is right on the money - The 78 trans ams were the last to recieve the 400 motor, and what was left over went to a few 79s, although all 79s will have a 400 decal on the hood, most were actually 403 pontiac motor...

I thought the 403 was an Olds Engine?

I think the turbo would have been interesting in a 3rd gen. If it went through all the development of the Buick V6 I wonder where that engine would have been today.

John

No.

The 403 cars had a 6.6LITRE sticker, and I believe that started in 1977. IIRC 1976 was the last year to actually have the engine size in CI on the shaker. The 400's in 79 said T/A 6.6.

The 301 was a garbage engine.

Even saddled with the turbo setup it was never a smooth easy flow package.

Let alone all the shortcomings the 301 has as an engine, from heads to intake to the actual block.

Anything done to hot rod it would have resulted in blowing it up more than likely :-)

The turbo program was being rammed thru to other car lines by the buick engineers. The biggest shortfall at the time was transmission design. They simply could not make one live with it in any front wheel drive applications. It was planned to survive into the Reatta platform ut the trans issues killed that idea.

later
Jeremy

Olds 403 and base 180HP Pontiac 400(painted valve covers) powered Trans Ams got the 6.6 Litre decals on the shaker. The RPO W72 cars with the 200HP(1977)/220HP(1978 & 79) got the T/A 6.6 decal on the shaker.

You're correct that the last year for the engine callout in CI on the shaker was 1976. I never cared for the Liters thing... "455 HO" looks better!