History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
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Courtesy of Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Addition.
Rare:\'rar, 'rer\ adj 1: marked by wide separation of component particles : thin 2: a marked by unusual quality, merit, or appeal : distictive b superlative or extreme of its kind 3: seldom occuring or found : uncommon.
Ok, lets think about this... How many Camaros and Firebirds were manufactured each year? On average just an educated guess, 20,000. Some years the production was up to 40,000 units, some down to about 10,000? So 20,000 or so a year rough estimate. How many years were these cars made? 10... 10 x our underestimated 20,000 comes to... 200,000. 200,000... now with 200,000 cars coming off the assembly line in the course of ten years with various options and colors, and equipment, are any of them really rare? My opinion? not even close. This board alone has 6632 members... even if everyone of these members had two thirdgens thats only 13,264 cars... I bet that with only that small cross section of the cars that are out there, every person on this board would find at least one person that has every option that their own car has. There are of course exceptions, there always are, but for the most part, no one on this board has a rare thirdgen because by definition thirdgens aren't rare. If you want a rare car buy an exotic, don't buy a mass produced economy sports car.
Is a 3rd gen rare?? Uh, no. I don't think anyone is implying that. Anyone who would say that I would personally smack. But is a 1LE rare? Hell yes. Is an '87 Z28 convertible rare? How about a B4C? So where's the issue? Maybe I've been out of the thirdgen.org loop too long....
I'm also assuming your 20k per year production is a joke as well If I remember right, the lowest production year for 3rd gens was '92 with 70,000, with '88 right behind at like 80-something thousand.
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Jason E
'89 Camaro RS 2.8 (Medium Gray Metallic)
Hypertech chip/K&N filters/Accel 8.8 wires, Accel Supercoil/RapidFires
Eclipse CD and 100x4 amp/Boston plates and 6x9s
Alpine Alarm, Keyless Entry
IROC tailights, tinted windows
what u say is true but u need to take in consideration that very few third gens remain in mint condition. Keep in mind the trailor trash thirdgens, the winter beater third gens and all the third gens that have been smashed stolen or abused over the past 10 years. With that taken into consideration yes i would deffinetly say that thirdgens can be very rare. Especially factory yellow t/a's with the high output TPI motors
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1989 pontiac firebird
bright red exterior(just repainted)
grey interior
5 spd
305 TBI (stock)
WS.6 formula wheels
3.73 posi rear end http://members.aol.com/j007golden/Mikey89.html
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1985 trans am
factory bright yellow
4 wheel disks
16 inch wheels
305 TPI
power antenna and mirrors
t tops
20,000 a year? There were over 192,219 camaros produced just in 86. F-body sales thrived in the 80s.
------------------ The IROC Homepage
<A HREF="http://www.rit.edu/~jli4307/camaro" TARGET=_blank>
View the restoration of an 85 IROC</A>
"I didn't know a bored out Ford could go so slow" -Shenandoah
Like I said I was underestimating... the numbers I was remembering were Iroc production numbers or something to that effect. The point is that none of these cars are really rare, and even if they were they wouldn't be valuable. People on this board need to stop worrying if thier car and several hundred just like it is or isn't rare and rather just enjoy it. If you want to restore the car, restore it. If you want to strip it out and tub it and give it a 502, then do it... but for the love of god quit coming in here and asking if some POS is rare cause there really aren't any rare options that are worth any money now, and probably won't be worth any money anytime soon.
For the people that want production numbers, there are books that have this info as well as websites. Rather than posting a thread here and spending valuable time checking for replies haul your butts to a book store and buy a book or two. You'll have the resources on hand to answer almost any question you have, and you can come on here and answer stupid questions till your hands are sore from typing.
If the car is really rare or something of value, you'll know it without having to have some jackass on a website tell you.
I hear what your saying and where you are coming from "Is my pink mid 80s Trans-maro with a V6 (now a V5) and a 4 1/2 speed tranny rare"? Unusual? Yes. Rare? No. Desireable? Depends how many people want a pink V5 Trans-maro.
While there may be some combinations that are not very common or usual, I would have to agree that they don't necessarily make the car rare. Among us fellow 3rd Genners, we may consider the car rare, but to the mass public (and they ultimate determine the price) they do not. I do not believe the general public view the rarity of an 1LE car with the same enthusiasm as we do. To them, it's "just another 3rd Gen Camaro with fancy brakes". A bit unusual, but not necessarily rare.
I understand Glenn...I was merely pointing out that their are some oddities throughout the 10 years that indeed allow some 3rd gens to be truly rare. Onefine8t9 has another key point...with every passing year, fewer and fewer are out there. That's why I wanna find my new one ASAP.
And as for them not necessarily thinking of them as being rare, consider this. I used to see them running all over the place when I was a kid. How many do you see running around now? A fair amount still, but not nearly as many. They WILL be rare...not now, but someday. Do you think my dad, when he had his '69 Camaro SS350, thought it was gonna be a collectors item someday? Uh, no. He figured it was just another Chevy small block...it was then, but not now. The mass market will pay a lot less for a nice '69 than the enthusiats will...that's just the way it goes.
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Jason E
'89 Camaro RS 2.8 (Medium Gray Metallic)
Hypertech chip/K&N filters/Accel 8.8 wires, Accel Supercoil/RapidFires
Eclipse CD and 100x4 amp/Boston plates and 6x9s
Alpine Alarm, Keyless Entry
IROC tailights, tinted windows
The really rare options are rare because they're unpopular. The reason they're unpopular is either because they're ugly, pointless, or overly expensive, or any combination of the above.
Drew, my favorite example of your point comes from my OTHER F-body, my 1967 Firebird convertible. There were close to 100,000 1967 Firebirds made, of which over 15,000 were convertibles. My car is not rare. Desirable and even valuable, arguably yes. But not truly rare.
Every once in a while I see an ad for a 1st gen Firebird that catches my eye because the ad says "rare." If you read the fine print, you will see that the car is rare because it has a column shift automatic transmission. Now, technically, the column shift is "rare" but it's rarity stems from the fact that was, and remains, undesirable, so no one ordered it that way (this applies to the ultra-"rare" strato-bench seat option - uggh).
I have to agree with Drew on his comment on "how rare is my car?" We do see a lot of people asking this. I would suggest that in the future, if someone asks, maybe the moderator can point them to where it is documented that GM kept no option package quantity records and let the people determine what options might be "rare" individually. Then lock the thread!! As Willie informed me on another discussion, my 1 of 901 "rare" rear view mirror option on my IROC isn't even accurate from GM. It would be nice to see this History/Restoration location be just that. A place where someone that is trying to restore their car back to what it used to be, can get answers from people that have the information available. As far as history is concerned, those can be general questions regarding the history of the 3rd gen.
Just to agree with another post on this board, I do have a "rare" 87 IROC. Not because it was fully loaded or has specific options, but because it has 7300 miles and looks like it just came off the show floor. You don't see this much today. My dad wouldn't pay more than book value for this car(~$5k) because of it's age, but it's worth more to me because of my passion for the 3rd gen!!
Why? Guys like the guys at this site. A lot of young guys who couldn't touch an IROC (GTA, 1LE) when they were new. A lot of young guys that can't afford the one they really want now. After college, and the kids are grown, they (you) will be making more money, have more discretionary income, wake up some day (or see one on the street or in an ad) and say I'm gonna get me that IROC I wanted when I was young. You're gonna go looking for a nice one with "rare" or at least desirable options.
How many '57 Chevys did they make? I want to say somewhere close to a million (not sure though). Were they rare? Nope. Are they collectable? Two doors, convertibles, and Nomads sure are. I also read somewhere that Ford made more cars in '57 than Chevy did. Are they collectable? Apparently not nearly as much as the Chevys. Either that or Martians came down one night back in the '60s and took all the Fords while the babyboomers were stoned.
All that said, a guy putting $18k to $20k into mutual funds back in the '80s will be a lot farther ahead (monitarily speaking) then one looking to cash in on a "rare" 3rd gen. But then cars ain't always about making money.
------------------[list=A][*]1987 IROC Convertible 5-speed, TPI, Performance axle, oil cooler, no air[*]'57 Thunderbird, California car, D engine, both tops[*]'68 Riviera - Grandpa's last, my first, owned 26 years
[This message has been edited by IROC87convertible (edited January 30, 2001).]
You wanted the total productions of the F-body's.. I hope I can help but all I have is Camaro stats.
1982:
21,802 4Cyl - 69,777 V6 - 98,168 V8's for a total of 189,747 Camaro's. 155,577 Were automatics. I don't know how many were in V8's but if you had the LU5 you had to have an auto. 24,673 LU5's made.
If you want stats on any year for any RPO code e-mail me.
1992 Camaro RS
LO3, T-56, ported and polished heads (as if you can do more), Edelbrock Performer Intake, 14X3 Open Element w/ K&N, hiflow cats (and thats it), 245/45/16 GSC, 170 stat w/ fan switch, STB, Subframe connectors, KYB's
I don't care what anyone says, the only ones I consider rare are 1LEs, B4Cs, TTAs, Firehawks, Pacers, Heritage models. But out of them which is really rare? Only the TTA and Firehawk. I'm sick of looking in the paper and on internet auctions, seeing people want 15k for their 1LE Z28s. I usually think dam this guys a real jackass, specially since you can find TTAs for less. Hell the only 1LE I can say is truly rare would be Mont1le's 91 yellow T/A, one of nine made that year. Plus the GM emissions exempt sticker still remaining in the engine compartment holds some high honors. blaw...I feel like Drew for once, I need to cleanse myself now. Thanks Drew LOL
------------------ 1989 Camaro RS LO3 WCT5 0-60' 2.34 1/4 15.8@87mph http://350.StreetRacing.org
The posi unit breaker.
loving the name arent ya? no seriously.. ok chevy produced 25000-32000 1990 camaros . and only 5243 est. IROC's . and only 2413 5.7L IROC's and then cut down the color schemes. and that make my care one of 2413 divided by how many color options. exactly that is rare. and to me rare is also something that isnt seen everyday. and i dont know anyone in my city that has a 1990 iroc so i have a rare car. and by the way who cares what the car is worth to others. unless you are selling it. if it is worth 1000000 to you. then that is what it is worth. oh well thought i might chime in since the title had my name in it. thanks and drew go and find a rare car and have fun.
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1990 IROC-Z L98 350 TPI
AFPR 49PSI, GUTTED AIR BOXES, K&N, RAM AIR, PORTED PLENUM, B&M SHIFTER, 3.23 LIMITED SLIP, DUAL CATS, STOCK SUPER TURBO EXHAUST, COOPER COBRA XST's
If you like you can say the 3rd gens are relatively rare. You'd be right cause that could me anything.LOL
I got my Formula in near showroom condition w/new paint and tires for two grand at a dealers auction. It's a rare find.
My 81Z may not be "rare". But when you come out of the store and you see people standing in the parking lot looking at it, when you go to the car parts store and you hear folks inside looking at it/talking about it and when people stop you when you get out and ask what kind of car it is, then you know it's at least getting "rare" (unusual to see one) enough that it is no longer a belly button car. Some day the really nice 3rd gen Z's and IROC's will be in the same situation. Just hang onto them, drive them and take care of them. They are worth it.
I think most people that are wondering if their thirdgen is "rare" are wondering if it is rare for a thirdgen... not out of every car ever made... Special options might not be important to most people, but some thirdgen freaks it would. If I was in the market and found a nice '84 recaro TA over a stock bucket I would be willing to pay more... Is it really worth it? probably not.. but to me it would be...
Simple, over 3,000 essentially the same cars were built... what makes any one of those really stand out? Production numbers under triple digits would be rare. 3,000, I don't think so.
If someone takes into consideration the number of these cars that were wrapped around trees. Rare may come back into play. How many with your options are still going?
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87 Iroc-z Black out/Grey in. 350 tuned port. Auto. T-tops.
Does anyone think a '70 Chevelle SS 454 (LS5 or LS6) is rare? There was somwhere around 5000 of those made. If you could find an unmolested one now you would have a $20,000+ car. Of course it takes time for cars to be recognized as rare and collectable. Give thirdgens time and some will be rare.
I would like to add a simple thought and bring in a real world issue to this.
call your auto insurance agent and for the sake of knowing, ask them to find a replacement vehicle as close to yours as possible. This type of could-be-nightmare can open your eyes to what " rare " really means to you, you dont really know what you have...
until you try to replace it
OK im from Australia and i can tell you that 3rd gens, infact all gens, are 'rare' here.
it all comes down to where the car is, i mean here in australia commodore(australian GM-Holden) is evry day car, anoing at times, but in US it would turn heads, why? because people are not used to seeing it.
when you talk numbers built, it does not mean that car is nessery rare, it just not as usual, i mean you wouldn't call a Rolls-Roys(?) a rare car just because there r only 25-30 of them prodused a year.
there are options rareties, yes, but does it mean if you get a new car with some stupid and least popular option/colour its straight away a rarety? that type of cars r collectables-thats the word that should be used not rare
dont think that im aginst every one who belives their car is rare, it actually is because you'll never gaing to find two identical cars even if both are owned by the same person, e.g. one of the cars would have fluffy dice and other wouldn't .
Gee i hope you getting what im saying.
Anyone can bolt tacky fibreglass panels on a firebird and make it unusual, does it really increase the value? no. I feel the same about the tojan. Most of the time its just body panels... screw that.
I don't think my turbo transam is rare. however the production numbers are low and mabye someday it will be rare- or at most just more expensive
I say this because when I decided to buy this car I had no trouble locating one. If it were truly rare the prosective buyers would greatly out number the supply of TTA's in the market. and I would not of been able to get one.
Even the buick GNX with just 547 made is available and could be located and in your driveway in 24 hours.
they are not rare because the demand for them is low.
I would define something as rare if it could not be aquired at any price.
For the above mentioned reasons my cay is a daily driver- if it gets wreaked or stolen I'll just go buy another one.
If someone wanted to make TTA's rare they should buy all 1500 of them- have 1499 crushed and keep the last one now they have a rare car
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3.8 turbo 20th anniversary transam #497 first owed by Clifford Williams, Bass player from rock band AC/DC
300 made
16 convertibles or less were made
2 Tojan Knightmares (black interior/exterior) made...
Only 3 dozen KNOWN to still exsist
and they're fairly appealing... and most people can't put body panels on a camaro or firebird and MAKE IT LOOK GOOD!! muchless sell it to random dealerships lucky enough to get one... Tojans were only made in 85-88
Some of y'all would think its ugly... but Tojans are more than just body panels, its full interior/exterior
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jason E: I understand Glenn...I was merely pointing out that their are some oddities throughout the 10 years that indeed allow some 3rd gens to be truly rare. Onefine8t9 has another key point...with every passing year, fewer and fewer are out there. That's why I wanna find my new one ASAP.
And as for them not necessarily thinking of them as being rare, consider this. I used to see them running all over the place when I was a kid. How many do you see running around now? A fair amount still, but not nearly as many. They WILL be rare...not now, but someday. Do you think my dad, when he had his '69 Camaro SS350, thought it was gonna be a collectors item someday? Uh, no. He figured it was just another Chevy small block...it was then, but not now. The mass market will pay a lot less for a nice '69 than the enthusiats will...that's just the way it goes.
</font>
i agree with your statement about the SS350. these cars will be desireable in some time. cars deteriate in value until they are worth about nothing (20 years or so) and then the unmolested versions are what start going up in value. 3rd gens are in that slump right now. i'm sure a lot of people had these same conversations in the 70's starin at a 1968 SS396 375hp RS/SS thinking it was over priced but that certainly is a rare car. 86 IROCS with a 350 TPI motor are rare. IROCS may not be rare but stock ones will be a collectible in the future since they are a "special edition" Z28. 2000 and 2001 BERGER camaros are rare. time doesn't necessarily make a car rare.
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LONG LIVE THE MUSCLE CAR!!!!! MAY ITS REIGN NEVER END
1983Z28 350w/ edelbrock performer RPM power package with 64cc aluminum heads, flowtech shorty headers, 700R-4 with shift kit, 750cfm carb, edelbrock 3" exhaust systemm, ASCD SS hood, 16" IROC rims.
future mods:
completely done over suspension, black paint with flames, B&M shifter, dakota digital gauge package, procharger supercharger.
I saw one of those tojan cars you are all talkin about in the auto shopper here in NJ last spring. It didnt have a lot of miles on it and it was only $14,000. I guess i should have bought it and sold it for $70000. I thought it was just an ugly kit car someone made using an F-body.LOL
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Drew: The point is that none of these cars are really rare, and even if they were they wouldn't be valuable. </font>
What about a 1990 IROC 1LE? You're right, rare just ain't the word...more like nonexistent...what about a 1992 Firehawk? Some are worth more stock then modded, but for the most part, we should just have fun. Just leave the showroom floor type cars alone and don't toy with them, there's plenty more cars and parts around.
Type of car that I consider rare is like a 1953 Corvette. But that is another story. No thirdgen is rare. The TTA you can find. Havent seen any Firehawk third gens. So I would say the only rare third gen is a Fhawk.
carcraft magazine said in their recent f-body builders guide that "between 82 and 92 GM stamped out over 2 million f-bodies" f-bodies as a whole aren't rare, but the really nice ones like most of us have here are rare. here in ohio i don't see very many real nice 3rd gen camaros and hardly any firebirds. there are alot of junkers though.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by superz: carcraft magazine said in their recent f-body builders guide that "between 82 and 92 GM stamped out over 2 million f-bodies" f-bodies as a whole aren't rare, but the really nice ones like most of us have here are rare. here in ohio i don't see very many real nice 3rd gen camaros and hardly any firebirds. there are alot of junkers though.</font>
same thing in my area i can probably count the amount of really nice f-bodies in my area on one hand
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LONG LIVE THE MUSCLE CAR!!!!! MAY ITS REIGN NEVER END
1983Z28 350w/ edelbrock performer RPM power package with 64cc aluminum heads, flowtech shorty headers, 700R-4 with shift kit, 750cfm carb, edelbrock 3" exhaust systemm, ASCD SS hood, 16" IROC rims.
future mods:
completely done over suspension, black paint with flames, B&M shifter, dakota digital gauge package, procharger supercharger.
Rare is in the eye of the beholder. How about a 89 RS with a 350 TPI, 5 speed with a Borg Warner rear end and over head console complete with flashlight? Rare in the fact it was never built exept in my garage. I beleive any third-gen that is meticulously keep 100% original or a full blown street rod is rare in the fact that no one will be the same due to owners personallities. Rare in this case may translate to demand.
'92 Hawks... That's it! Maybe an unmolested 1LE or a civilian B4C.
Unfortunately it is true, I bought my '92Z because it was completely loaded in my favorite color and had under 50,000. Then I went to the summer nationals in Worcester, MA. I saw several 25th's there with less than 30,000mi. Made me and my car feel like ****!
Then I added the T-Ram out of '92 Hawk and I'll tell you what, I now have a RARE intake because less than 100 were ever produced and it's on a nicely kept 3rd gen... can I call it rare now...?
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92 Z28 - 5.7 - Black/Grey Leather
Macewen White Faced Guages
SLP T-RAM, 24lb/h Injectors
Accell 52mm Throttle Body
SLP 1 3/4" Headers and Cat Back Sys.
some guy around here is selling his 1990 IROC for 6000 i dont remeber what color but it was one of the last ones made...says he brought it almost mid year
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1991 RS LO3
mods: 14" chrome air cleaner, straight-piped after cat exhaust with one chrome dual tip on the left side.
future mods: headers, removing smog equipment, and as many cheap mods as i can find
aol s/n: budman8503
Well Drew does have a point. There are TOO MANY 3rd gens on the roads. Now, ones in good condition are rare. But not thirdgens in general.
It always so happens that whenever I feel "good" about my car and I'm out cruising...one of those trailer trash women driving early 80s thirdgens always has to be next to me damnit! You know the type, just got off work from the assembly line, cigarette hanging out of her mouth and harry warts all over her face. I can just imagine what everyone must be thinking when they see her drive by then see me drive by. I almost want to cry.
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91 Formula
305 TPI 5speed
1LE/G92/WS6
Paxton SN92 polished kit, SLP airfoil, ported/polished plenum, March pulleys, Crane AFPR(43psi),Crane Gold 1.6rrs,MSD coil,MSD6AL (5200rpm limit),Holley 9mm wires,Ac delco R43ts plugs,stock chip,Ford SVO 24# injectors,Bosch O2sensor,SLP 1 5/8" headers,SLP catback,shortened shifter,3:73s w/Auburn posi,170* t-stat,JET 195* fan switch, Macewen white face gauges, Autometer gauges, Zoom hi-performance clutch.
[This message has been edited by theformula (edited March 11, 2001).]
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