Quote: Originally Posted by coolram62 Maro-Man the GN in factory trim is speed limited but the ECM mainly because of the the speed rating of the tires.This was rectified with the GNX in better tires and a vastly improved suspension.The GNX is probably one of the fastest cars produced in numbers.But your'e right about the "watching out for the Grandma looking Regals" - little T-Type emblems are hard to see. The TTA's 3.8 turbo was a hybrid using both GN & GNX parts.The heads used on the GNX gave packaging problems in the F-body.And GM under rated all of them like they did in the late '60s(for insurance among other reasons).I've also seen in print,although at the moment can't quote,that it's been said the TTA was the fastest T/A produced. The actual '82 Z28 Pacecars had aluminum block 350's to make sure they met the Pacecar criteria. The GNX is still considered to be the fastest Sedan ever produced. - From American Musclecar on Speed TV. Chances are then the actual 1982 Z28 Pace cars would not have been released to the public because of this, they may have been after the engine was replaced back to its 305 status. Legally GM could not sell them in the modified state becuase the car would have gone through crash tests, and emmissions certification before doing so. There may be a few surviving in Museums, but other than that they would have been crushed or transformed back. JOhn

The statement about the TTA being the fastest Trans Am quote was made by I believe Jim Mattison at Pontiac Historical Services at the Trans Am Nationals in DAyton.

Granted the Magazines did not have great results a 14.3 quarter mile seems awful slow for how I have seen the perform with little or no modifications. Of course GM may have de-tuned the models that the mags were to sample, as to not let the cat out of the bag, and keep insurance prices down. Anything is possible.

John

I've heard the quote before myself, but that doesnt make it true. The 01-02 LS1 cars are pretty fast, I dont think a stock TTA would stand a chance.

Gotta chime in on this one... (and my apologies if I'm hijacking this thread)

My bone stock TTA has no problem beating LS1 F-bodies. A good friend has an '02 Z28 SS (anniversary), with the 6-speed manual, and optional SLP exhaust and we raced many times. He couldn't believe it - the TTA beat him each time.

On the Buick board, a guy has a '79 T/A, 89 TTA, and an LS1 TA Ram Air(along with a GN). He always says hands down his TTA is the fastest of the bunch.

Chris
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1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am #760 (1804 miles)
1988 Chevrolet Corvette 35th Anniversary #1941/2050
1983 Delorean DMC-12
1985 Kawasaki Eliminator ZL900

I second that. I have beat numerous LS1s, both stick and automatic, in mine. It's stock down to the AC Delco filter! These cars were severely under-rated from the factory, the brochure says 250hp, but if you read the one for the Corvette, it says 255hp. The un-written rule is that no one has more HP than the vette. Tell you what, take a look here: 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am This is one of the most comprehensive sites out there for the TTA.

I have just about every one of the magazines that had major articles on the TTA. It beat the GNX in the High Performance Pontiac article and beat the 89 Vette in the Corvette Fever article. You really need to drive one to understand........

My bad

Well I've never seen a stock TTA run much better than low 13's and at the same track I saw numerous stock late LS1's run in the 12's.

Racing someone and beating them doesnt mean much, I beat a 99 Formula (LS1 ) with a stock LB9 at a dragstrip and have the slip to prove it.

In reading the VIN, isn't the TTA a Buick??????????????

^No, the TTA is a Pontiac. I believe it uses the 3.8 engine and turbo setup out of the Buick Grand National cars, but none the less, the car is still a Pontiac.

I thought this was the fastest third gen..
IROC-Z 350

Im talking about the 87 stock iroc, not the 86 Protofab.. after all its the fastest 3rd gen... but not quite stock..

I seconed that

I'm talking timeslips

A typical Pontiac Firebird VIN:
1G2FS218xKL212345

A Typical Trans Am or GTA VIN:
1G2FW218xKL212345

THe TTA VIN:
1G5FW217xKL212345

What you will first notice is that the 3rd digit is a 5 instead of a 2, what this means is that the car was a special production. Since the introduction of the 17 number Vin, the following has been true for GM US built cars
1 = USA
G = GM
1 = Chevy 2 = Pontiac, 3 = Oldsmobile, 4 = Buick, 6 = Cadillac

the 5 in this case was a "Specialty category" of some sort, I believe that since it left Van Nuys, was transported to ASC McLaren and then back to Van Nuys to be completed it recieved the special VIN since it was not completly done at the factory.

Its the only explanation I have.

John

I did hear Jim Mattison make this quote at the TA Nationals in 1994. He was in a meeting with all the car clubs and made the statement. What was interesting is he had his 1992 Firehawk then at the show. Years later when I was talking to Jim about the Firehawk he made a statement that the Stock programmimg was really bad and the cars responded really well to re-programming. He mentioned the cars ran poorly and did not idle very well.

- Dave

I did not realize that Jim Owned a Firehawk... IIRC there was Hawk #1 at the show that year, does he own #1?

John

I think injdinjn meant the 8th digit (engine code) in the VIN....

The 7 on a turbo Buick VIN is the 3.8 Turbo option (LC2)...same as the TTA.

It's been said the TTA is the fastest Pontiac Buick ever built.

Under-rated. Slightly.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/at...enginedyno.jpg

If talking about fastest F-body cars ever, the old Yenko Camaro's would be no.1

Camaro wise for 3rd Gen, yes the 91 and 92 Z28's with the 350TPI engine.

I wouldn't base racing on the street as a viable way of saying who's car is actually faster, unless it was done mulitple times and both drivers can drive.

I went to the track a few months ago with some friends just to hang out and see if the T5 made the car any faster.
My car ran a 15.2 @ 93mph. ET was the same but mph was up 3mph.
My friend and I swapped cars, he drove my Formula, got a 15.2@93 as well.
He was getting 13.5 @107 in his 02 WS6 all night.

Now, I had never even driven his car before, so the only seat time I had behind the wheel before my first run was the 100 or so feet from the staging lanes to the tree.
My first run was a 13.45@105mph due to me thinking that I would make it to the end in 3rd gear, but I hit the rev limiter at around the 1000ft mark.
Second run was a 13.20 @ 108mph
Third run was a 13.18@109
4th run was a 13.12@109
and then they closed the track due to it being too cold (in reality, I think they closed early since there was only like 50 cars there and the staff wanted to go home).
I bet I could have hit a high 12 on the next couple of passes.

John,
Jim Matison had the car for a while, but had sold it by the summer of 2003 when I talked with him.
- Dave

Fastest regular production: 87-90 IROC-Z/91-92 Z28
Best handling regular production: IROC-Z's/1LE's

Just a few comments...

There are only two 82 Pace Cars that had the 350. Both are still owned by GM and the Speedway. Since they were modified from stock form for the race, they don't qualify. Secondly, it was mentioned before that the TTA was the first pace car to run in stock form. I dispute that and say that the 78 Corvette was the 1st car to Pace Indy with no modifications. It was followed by the 86 Corvette, which needed no modifications.

Okfoz,
ASC/McLaren did not do the conversions on the 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am.
PAS did.
As for the comment about the 20th TTA being the fastest, even Jim Wangers has stated that.

George

Well, I recall reading that the 78 Pace car used stock drivetrain, but it did not say that the drivetrain is not the same drivetrain that was in all 6,502 or so other pace car replicas. The 1986 Corvette needed no mechanical modifications to pace the race. In fact it was the first street-legal car to pace Indy since the 1978 Corvette. However, the car itself was not offered to the public. The three 1989 TTA cars that paced the race were picked at random off the line and had the rear window defroster deleted for the ABC camrera, the foglight button turned into the button for the strobes, and safety requirements for the track installed.

The TTA was able to pace the race just the way it sat on the dealer's lot. But whatever, the car is faster than those two anyways!!!!!

your right, I always get that mixed up because the GNX was done by McLaren. Since the TTA used the GNX basic engine & transmission I get confused sometimes.

Who is PAS?

John

Comparing an LS1 to the TTA is kind of pointless. Stock vs stock it's a good race, put a couple bucks and a paper clip into the TTA and the LS1 gets roasted.

LS1s aren't infallible. I have no problem beating autos on the highway and stay with the 6-speed cars, and I have only a couple of bolt ons and some weight loss.

What does a BONE STOCK TTA dyno at?

We have all had TTA's dyno in the upper 280-300 range when stock :-)

Torque is easily in the 300's.

PAS did the Turbo Trans AM and the Sy/Ty for GM as well.

TTA engine wasnt a GNX engine. It was a regular 3.8T setup modified for trhe reality of the f body engine bay as far as heads go, resulting in the narrower configuration for the available space.

Same goes with the trans, had all the latest and greatest updates Hydramatc could muster (along with the bs 250hp rating to give the trans a warranty)..

later
Jeremy

Here is the Advertised "Official" (although inaccurate) information from the 1989 Pontiac Media Kit.

Okay so bone stock they have pretty close to LS1 numbers. I'm sure with maybe a few hundred in mods they're closer to 350 though.

Actually from what I understand $400 gets you there...

Since I know nothing about the TTA, I assume that includes a chip an an adjustable pressure regulator...

i didnt bother reading through what everyone has sadi cuz theres alot. and i dont know if yall are talking 3rd and 4th gen just 3rd or all f-bodies, but I THOUGHT the 4th gen Camaro ZL1 was the fastest (or atleast most expensive) from the factory.

The 4th gen Camaro ZL1 was not a factory car. It was a GMMG modified car. Most of the owners took delivery of the cars at GMMG or thru Berger Chevrolet Performance department. Again, this leads to the question, is a Berger modified car (thru GMMG) considered a factory car? I don't think so because the cars that were modified in the 60's used factory parts. The new ZL1 is full modified. However, GMMG is authorized by GM to make these mods and are fully warranteed just like the PAS cars, the SLP cars, Yenko and such. So who knows. They're all fun!

Chip $25
Test pipe w/dump $50
K&N $45
Bleeder Valve $25
5 gal. 110 fuel $30

Dude..........you're good.

I was running 12.7-8's @ 112-113 mph with above on 2.1 60's

Pretty to close to 350

This is an incorrect rumor (I tried correcting it over 10 years ago on gnttype mailing list and emailing the TTA website)

The 1989 Corvette had 240 hp or 245hp if it had the Z51 package with free flowing exhaust. The same goes for 87 Corvette vs GN, 240 vs 245 and 86 Vette/GN was 230hp vs 235hp GN. The 86 Corvette did eventually get 235 hp, but it was 2/3 of the way through production.

Nevertheless the TTA was under rated.
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When the SLP Firehawks were available, were they available to order at any GM dealership or was it only select dealership that were SLP dealerships?

THe Firehawk was only available to Pontiac dealerships who wished to offer the package. My understanding is any dealership could have opted to offer the car. Much like the 87-90 Firebird convertibles, it was available to any dealership who wished to participate. Obviously some dealerships were more ambitious than others, and thus why there is not an even offering across the country. THere is a concentration in Flordia, California and in the Chicago area of convertibles... To answer your question, SLP as far as I know does not own any dealerships like Mecham for example, I believe owned a dealership...

John

If my memory serves me correctly, Motor trend did a top speed test on a bunch of sporty cars in one of their '89 issues and the TTA was clocked @ 162 mph!!!! In fact the only other vehicle faster I believe was a ZR-1 corvette. I have never read any top speed numbers on the Firehawks.

Also worth investigating in the "nitpicking" category: I believe in '92 you could order your firebird w/ a full SLP package included. I am not sure if the dealer, factory, or SLP installed those - but thats 290hp for an L98. Things that make you go hmmm.....

The convertible 1LE with a 5.7 5 speed, and heated seats.

Back in 91 I had money down to order a yellow TTOP 91 1LE formula 305 5sp with the slp stuff and a 5.7 corvette longblock installed from the dealer. I still have the dealer worksheet even !!!
I even toyed with the vert option for that car
Then Dad found out what kinda power it was guna have
anyway I ended up with my kinda not so stock 89 Formula 350
Its been clocked by the bad guys at 187mph.

I think there is a thread for this in another forum; but I have not seen any evidence anywhere that GM assembled a L98 car with the T5 5-spd for consumer sale at anytime during third gen production.

How about the slowest ever? I'd say an automatic trans 82 Iron Duke with or without the air conditioning on

Sarcasm only works when other people know your being sarcastic...

He was using sarcasm, as there was not a 1LE Convertible, nor were heated seats available in a 3rd Gen, nor was a M5 available with the L98... The closest thing you could get would be one of the three 1989 TTA Convertibles with Leather seating, or the 1 1992 Firehawk Convertible with a 6 Speed, not sure what interior it has though...

John

Haha, I didn't think anyone would take that seriously.. Damn..

Are you trying to collect all the VIN numbers? There's a red '89 Formula 350 convertible just a few minutes from my house. It's a red one and still owned by the original owner. I doubt if you have the VIN number for that one. There also used to be a white one running around here in the mid 90's but it was pretty ghettoed out and I would hope it got scrapped a long time ago. The guy with the red one has offered it to me in the past but I didn't buy it. (I'm sure I will sometime down the road.) I just saw him drive by with it the other day so I know he still has it.

Ummmm....Aren't the 91/92 SLPs Firehawks?

I think the 1988 Firebird Trans Am GTA is being overlooked. A book on firebirds by Consumer Guides states "Full-bore performance freaks might be temped by the Banks/Pontiac Twin Turbo GTA, whose 7.5-liter mill delivered a 268-mph run at Bonneville, hitting 283 mph along the way. Now that was one fast Firebird." I would like to see one of those myself. Wonder how many were ordered with that option in 88?

Interesting read.

What if a car is advertised at 250HP, but makes 275hp in reality? Which is the number you go by? ....we all know the factory REGULARY publishes inaccurate numbers. ....but then who's dyno do you trust if you go for "real world" numbers. Sooooo many variables, and everyone has a different take on what is "factory", and what isn't.

In my humble opinion, the award for fastest thirdgen goes to the Turbo TA.

Let's all assume for a second that the Firehawk is in fact faster. Just for the sake of argument. Most people you talk to have never even heard of this car. Heck most of us haven't even SEEN one in real life. The chances of going head to head with this car back in the 90's was almost nothing. Nope, in my opinion, this car, regardless of "technicalities", wasn't a "regular" thirdgen. Regardless of "technicalities", this car was built for collectors and racers. The TTA on the other hand, while still limited, is pretty recognizable by most car guys. We've all seen 'em, most of us know someone who had one, or at least knew "that guy" who had one when they came out. (well at least you older guys!!!!) The car was available. It was seen. Mustang, Ttype, 350Z guys all knew what tangling with a TTA was about. The TTA represented the THIRD generation well.

It was the fastest.
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None. -unless you were being sarcastic. Then I'd say about 50. -and they all had 5 speeds!

where did you get your info?

Old thread but still a funny read.

My TTA ran 13.0@105 stock when I bought it with 17K miles. Ran 5 times and it was 13.0 every time. Only thing not stock when it was run that day was the tires. The stock Gatorbacks were replaced with Firestone Firehawks 2K miles earlier.

The first mods I did were:
Thrasher 92 chip, 160 t-stat, ATR MAF pipe, 8" K&N, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, LT1 valve springs, and cat pipe.

It ran 12.6@110 on a crappy 2.0. Coming out way to soft because the tires would be blown off. I put 245 Nitto drag radials on it and it went 12.1@111 on a 1.69. Also had it dynoed that same weekend...318/455 on a dynojet. And still on 93 octane!

HP is OK but torque is KING and the TTA had a lot of it. Especially when modding. Sorry for the long post. Just saying it didn't take much for a TTA to run very well.

TTA or Firehawk...pretty much a toss up.

What about the factory Players Race cars. They were probably the best handling and could be bought off the showroom floor.