Just currious as to which thirdGen year was the fastest out of all 10 years.

by 1991 the L98 cars made 245hp. i'd say the 91-92 firehawk is the fastest 3rd gen you could order brand new. dont know if that counts tho

89 TTA

TTA wins.

Firehawk was all done outside.

TTA came down line went to PAS and then back to GM.

Conventional non one year cars would go to the late SD 350 cars.

later
Jeremy

I agree on the '89 TTA as the fastest "factory" produced 3rd Gen.Actually it's probably one of,if not the fastest "factory" F-bodies.

I fail to understand how the Firehawk is any less *factory* than the Turbo Trans Am? PAS did the work in CA, SLP did the work in New Jersey. Both cars are PMD authorized and have factory RPO codes for their engines...

92GTA, not that i agree with the line of thought here, but the difference is like this:

TTA were built as White GTAs and sent to PAS for the TTA conversion and then were shipped BACK to GM for finalization and such.
FireHawks were built as red firebird formulas and then sent to SLP and then DIRECTLY to the dealerships.

to me that is still "factory". but i can see how some would disagree.

As long as we're nitpicking everything in this thread, 82 to 92 is eleven years, not ten. Count on your fingers and see.

Well if we are nitpicking then 82 to 92 as you mentioned IS 10. 82 *thru* 92 would be 11

Firehawks are every bit as 'factory' as a TTA ... But they aren't nearly as fast.

Firehawks not nearly as fast as TTA's? I agree that TTA's are probably easier to "tweak" but I'm not sure they were faster right out of the box?

Hawks were rated at 350hp and 390ft-lbs. 0-60 in 4.6 sec and the quarter in 13.2sec's. I'm not sure how TTA's were rated?

FWIW, I just spanked a stock 87 Grand National in the Hawk a few weeks ago....

Sorry, I was almost asleep when I posted that. No doubt an LS1 Hawk will walk a stock TTA. I was somehow (wrongly) limiting my 'which was faster' argument to the 3rd Gen cars, when there was no Firehawk. These trips to Singapore knock the sense of out you!!

LS1 Hawk??? we are talking about the 91-92 FireHawks vs the TTA !!

#1) 91-92 SLP FireHawk 13.2 ET ( it's a dealer option, so it counts)
#2) 89 Turbo Trans Am 13.4 ET
#3) L98 cars ( sure it can be broken down to 1LE,B4C,SD, Lighter cars like the Formula 350,... whatever) mid to high 14's ET, depending on the car and year.
#4) LB9 manuals then auto cars high 14's to mid 15's ET, depending on the car and year
and so on....................

not counting the special cars, I have to say the 90-92 Formula 305TPI 5 Speed G92 cars are the fastest.

82 Iron Duke FTW!

When you look at top speed and 0-60 for both the TTA and the Firehawk in stock trim they are very, very close. I would think it would come down to the driver at the strip on which car won.

Bottom line both cars are very fast and heads above any of the other muscle cars and some exotics of the time.

- Dave

1989 TTA ClothHardtop 1 of 15
1989 TTA Festival car 1 of 187
1979 10th T/A 4spd 1 of 1817
1974 SD-455 T/A Auto 1 of 731

Are you stock as well?

A speaker from PONTIAC at one of the Trans Am National Shows in Dayton. I remember him stating that "ironically the only Trans Am to ever get a V6happens to be the fastest Trans Am, even faster than the 2002 Collector Edition." It was over the loud speaker at the end of the show before the awards, he was describing the special cars that Pontiac brought that year.

The TTA engine ratings were WAY under what they really were, it had to do with Chevrolet and the Corvette. Chevy did not want any car to be rated with more HP, and therefore the TTA was given 5 or 10 HP less for a rating. The 91 & 92 Hawks were different because they were special interest cars and Chevrolet probably did not care that they had more HP.

A Gran National is a lot different than a GNX, try taking one of those on for size... Although they look the same there is really no comparison. the GNX was given several suspension upgrades by McLaren to help it perform, the back of the car will actually rise up as you mash on the pedal instead of squat like our cars. I know the Hawk is fast but the TTA was lighter than a GN or GNX for that matter, and it handled better than any of the Gran Nationals to boot. I think it would definately be an interesting race to see the 2 go head to head.

THe question was "...off of the assembly line."
the TTA, Firehawk, and all convertibles were not technically made by GM, they were all outsourced, I do not think it takes anything away as there will always be a market for these cars. One thing that I find is that many 91-92 Firehawks are selling in the ballpark of a inexpensive Ferrari, such as 308's & 328's Its not that they are not worth the money but I would bet that the 308 or 328 would be a better investement for the money as there is a larger market for these cars. I love the firehawk and I considered buying several of them, 1, 2 & 26 specifically I have shown interested at one time or another but my finances and the cars have not yet crossed paths.

(OFF THE LINE) As for the other cars:
350 cars, working backwards from 92 to 87 were the fastest cars, there is no replacement for displacement.
LB9 M5 cars were a close second, although they can beat a 350, in most peoples hands they will not.
LB9 A4 are typically a lot slower
L69 (HO) cars were fast but not typically within the realm of the LB9 cars, although with some tweeaking anything is possible...
Then there is the CFI in the frey, although they have their own set of issues.

THere is several other threads that really discuss this really.

Hawk #6 is stone stock and put down 290hp at the rear wheels...in 90+ degree heat with 95% humidity.

I agree that the GN is a little porky when compared to the TTA but felt it was a representative sample. I had him by a tad over a car length to 90mph.

Ahh, so he said the TTA was the fastest TA...but the Firehawk was a Formula, and not a TA (except for one of them).

Correct?

That is correct, and the statement could be intrepreted that way.

The 91-92 Firehawk may or may not be faster than the TTA, it would depend on the driver the humidity, the day etc. I believe that the Collector edition in 2002 was about the same as the 91-92 Firehawk for performance, talking to owners of cars that have had both they are comparable. The main advantage the TTA and Collectors edition cars have is they are better for cold start situations. From talking to Firehawk owners they tend to be pretty lousy at idle when cold.

As far as comparable, both the TTA and Firehawk are within that statement, were arguing about tenths of a second, many a TTA have been clocked in the 11's with nothing done to them, the Firehawk on a good day would probably also see the same, its all reletive. If we were talking about a Stock 350 car vs the TTA it would be fruitless and most people would scoff at any attempt to compare the two.

As far as the GN statement above, many years ago I looked at a late 80's Formula 350, the owner claimed that he recently raced a GN and beat him in a race. I know that there are many all black regals that have been badged with Gran National decals to look fake. Its like the article with the Mustang vs the GN back in 1987, the Mustang GT won... I do not know how or why but its in print. The benefit of the GN is with $400 worth of parts one could easily get down into the 12s.

As far as performance (domestic) 80's & early 90's cars here is the lineup: I have no hard numbers but I will do my best from memory of the 1/4 mile times.

One thing to consider about Motor Trend is they did not test all cars on the same day, the performance data was taken from other articles from the year, for example the 88 GTA was also in the June 87 Issue, with same results.
Here are some numbers from the day, stock form August 1987
87 Gran National - 14.73
87 Mustang GT - 15.13
87 Corvette - 15.32
87 IROC 350 - 15.23
87 GTA 350 - 15.35
87 Dodge Daytona Turbo - 16.08

Motor Trend Jan 88
88 IROC 350 - 15.54
88 Mustang GT - 15.77
88 Formula 305 - 15.95

Motor Trend July 88
88 GTA 350 - 15.88

Motor Trend MArch 1989
89 TTA - 14.18

here is a tricky one
whats the fastest 3dgen around corners?

The 91-92 Firehawk.
- Dave

i thought the iroc-z 1LE has the best handling

wow i never expected this kind of response. thanx for satisfying my curiosity guys.

the 87 corvette was not that slow, even the 84 crossfire injection cars were quicker than 15.32

1987 Corvette Production Figures and Performance Reviews - Corvette Action Center look at the bottom of this page, 87 corvette convertible pulled a 14.8 quarter mile.

Mine.

if we're still on the originaly arguement/discussion of whats the fastest third gen of the factory line...then wouldn't it really come down to a white GTA vs. a red firebird formula. not a TTA or firehawk-b/c thats after "factory line".

just if you wanna be technical, thats IMO

#1 - Firehawk
#2 - 1LE cars
#3 - Formula or IROC (usually around .89g)

Guildstrand made an 82 Camaro do .95g with some suspension mods, which was the highest up to that point with street tires for the Hot Rod SHootout.


here are some cornering numbers I found quickly:
91 GTA - .86g, .87g - Hot Rod
87 GTA - .85g - Hot Rod
91 Trans Am Vert - .92g - Hot Rod
89 TTA - .87g - Hot Rod
88 Formula - .86g - Hot Rod
88 Camaro SC - .82g - Hot Rod
91 Formula -.88g - Motor Trend
88 Formula - .89g - Motor Trend
88 IROC - .89g - Motor Trend
91 Firehawk - .92g - Car & driver

I also found some more 1/4 mile times curitsy of Hot Rod:
87 GTA 350 - 15.10
91 Trans Am Vert - 15.37
91 GTA 350 - 14.51
91 Formula 350 - 14.45
91 Formula 305 1LE - 14.55
91 GTA 350 SLP - 14.08
91 T/A vert - 15.4
89 TTA - 14.21

88 Formula LB9/M5 - 15.07 - MT
91 Z28 1LE - 14.78 -
91 Z28 350 1LE - 14.31
87 Formula 305 - 15.0 - Automobile
91 FIREHAWK - 13.2 - Car & Driver

that should pretty much answer most questions

TTA's had a factory GM warranty.

Firehawks did not.

Now how is this possible?

Firehawks did have a Warrenty, GM covered the car, SLP covered the conversion pieces. Its like when you add a banks turbo to a car, dispite what the automaker wants you to believe it does not void the warrenty...

Since the Firehawk had an RPO, then I would suspect that they did have a Warrenty, if work needed to be done you would take it to a Pontiac dealership and they would submit it to GM and I suspect GM would submit it to SLP... Although I am not aware of any issues. All of the Firehawks that I have seen are low miles cars...

---------------------
BigWhiteGTP
THe Convertible has a lower CG

John

Ok, I should have said FULL GM warranty. The entire powertrain was covered by SLP for 1 year/12,000 miles (really standing behind their package)

Every specialized part on a TTA has a GM part number and came with a 3yr/50K mile factory warranty with an extension option for a 6yr/100K mile. Can't say that for a Firehawk.

While the firehawk might be the fastest, whats the best motor?

obviously its a Lg4..

hahaha.. too bad i tossed it for a 385..

Arguably, the SBC was around for 54 years and it had a great track record. The engine that was introduced in the 1955 Chevrolets as a 263 was manipulated and punched out to everything from the original 263 to a 283, 305, 327, 350 & 400. Although popular the to my knowledge 383 was not offered in factory form EXCEPT for the three Firehawks which were so equiped. The Engine was radically changed in 1999, and 1998 would probably be the last year of the engine in its original configuration. Although the current SBC is similar, I am not sure that it shares much in common with its ansestors. What has always confused me is the SBC Gen 1 engine was built from 55 to 95, but the engine recieved more of a radical undertaking in 1987 than in 1996.

On the other hand the TTA, used a smaller engine, 231 (ci) in comparison. The 231, which evolved into the 3.8L and later into the phonomenal 3800 which still in production. Originally the small Buick engine was a small V8, which was Aluminum at the time, (back in the early 60's thats remarkable). They chopped off 2 cylenders, sold the design of the small v8 to Cogsworth IIRC, which produced the engine as an INDY engine for several years. Although the 3800 has gone to a Transverse engine, it was also used in the F-body from mid 1995 through 2002 as the base engine. The orginal 231 was like stated before a shortened 90° V8, and this created a balance issue in the earlier engines. In the late 70's or early 80's Buick decided to take the crank and offset the cogs as to have the engine run without the loap at idle. Many at GM felt that the design would simply fail quickly, but the design was ultimately approved and became so successful that the technology was implemented on the 4.3L V6 which again was de-cylendard/shortened 5.7L SBC which helped that engine as well.

The 3800 is probably one of the most reliable engines ever made by GM, and thus why it will not die, GM has tried on numours occasions to eliminate old pushrod technology, one of which was a re-designed 3900 which was to be built in China, but it proved to be unreliable, the 3800 was to be discontinued in 2002, then 2005 but they have been unable to improve on its reliability. It is so reliable that friends of mine who work on the line here in Flint actually produced some for Toyota, they were painted black and shipped to them.

Both the 3800/3.8L/231 engine and the SBC have a long heritage of reliablity and thus why in one shape or form they have such a long production life. Although I have read arguments that the inline 3.8L and the transverse engine variation were very different, I argue that if they were so different why could you take the FWD Lesabre Heads and install them on a TTA?

If you include the initial design of the 3800 and where it evolved from, you can trace it back to the early 60's, and the SBC back to '55... Which one is better? they are both great engines, but keep in mind that according to much literature the TTA was the first car to be unmodified to pace the INDY 500 from its production form . In comparison the SBC has such a great following, parts are cheep and they are plentiful. Both engines in some cases are known in junk yards to be space takers and are not saved becuase they do not have the room to save them, and demand for replacement is low.

Which is better? Everyone you talk to can argue one way or another, its like the Flat head Ford, there are people who think those engines were great too...

John

LC2 or new LSx's = best motor.
The Firehawk vs. '87 GN
Was this run from a dig and they knew you wanted to run? How do you know what year it was(84 - 87?) and if it was truely stock? Most GN's are not stock now days and if they say they are.......... There is a reason the Grand National is still one of the most feared cars on the street today. Like stated above dollar for dollar you can't mod a SBC to keep up with a GN(initial price is higher though). Just watch out for the regular looking grandma regals, they are v6's too.
Oh ya a dump truck would out corner my old GN.

My vote is for a TTA or Firehawk as fastest stock condition 3rd gens. I think stock is a car that the general public can purchase from the dealer brand new. -Nick.

The diameter of the Skid Pad can make a difference. So you need to see what size the Magazines used in the test.
- Dave

Nick,
I am curious about your comment above.
I own an 89 Formula 350 Convertible, The way that this car came about was it was ordered by a dealership in Florida, the car was drop shipped at ASC and then delivered to the dealership. The car is obviously modified, but it was purchased from a dealership as a new car in its current form. THere is no RPO code for the conversion, nor is the vin consistent with a Convertible. WHat struck me funny was that my Michigan Title clearly states "Convertible" yet I did not indicate it to them when I applied for it.

In your estimateion would this apply or not?

John

1982 pace car 5 speed camaro

Gee...........
All this talk, and no one asks about top speed?
Can any car (thirdgen), factory GM, beat 172mph?
Bone stock TTA at Indy, radar gunned at 172 on the straightaway.
Seems fast to me.

George

I really did not see any arguments going on, actually I see for one of the few times where people are actually having a discussion without getting bent out of shape.

82 Pace car huh? WHat info do you have to back this up?

JOhn

Too bad I was too young to see that. Are they able to run those speeds stock? Or was it chipped? I know the GN's don't go over like 120ish or 130ish or something with the stock chip. That bit of info just makes the TTA that much cooler, I want one.

*John* That was merely my opionon, but if your car came equipped from the dealer like that, then I would personally consider it stock or factory. Have you tried to find out how many cars might have slipped out of GM equipped like that? That is the way they should have come. -Nick.

42 Formula 350 Convertibles were made in 1989 are known of. there are still about 15 VINS whicn I have been unable to decipher.

How about the fastest 3rd gen Convertibles purchased new from the dealer.

1 Firehawk #27
2 TTA's
42 Formula 350's

John

Maro-Man the GN in factory trim is speed limited but the ECM mainly because of the the speed rating of the tires.This was rectified with the GNX in better tires and a vastly improved suspension.The GNX is probably one of the fastest cars produced in numbers.But your'e right about the "watching out for the Grandma looking Regals" - little T-Type emblems are hard to see.
The TTA's 3.8 turbo was a hybrid using both GN & GNX parts.The heads used on the GNX gave packaging problems in the F-body.And GM under rated all of them like they did in the late '60s(for insurance among other reasons).I've also seen in print,although at the moment can't quote,that it's been said the TTA was the fastest T/A produced.
The actual '82 Z28 Pacecars had aluminum block 350's to make sure they met the Pacecar criteria.

dunno about the comment of the TTA being the fastest TA ever. Any shmuck at my local track can get a 01-02 LS1 6speed Fbody to run a 12.9. and these are your average people coming in off the street to try there hand at drag racing.

edit cause my spelling sucks

Sorry, but 01-02's are NOT 3rd gens! The question was the fastest out of the 82-92 era.

I know I was refering to post 19

it was just to long to quote