A few years ago I used their services to get documentation for my '87. So having recently acquired an '89, last week I mailed for the info on it, and today I got my request back, along with a cover letter stating: "Due to an internal reorganization, the vehicle information on 1987 and newer Pontiacs is currently unavailable through Pontiac Historical Services. We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause. Jim Mattison Pontiac Historical Services" That was it, nothing more. So since there was no mention about whether or not it would ever become available again, I'd have to assume it never will be, otherwise I'd think Mr. Mattison would've mentioned something... anything. There's one avenue gone for those of us with later model thirdgens. Are there anymore? I'd suggest anyone with earlier models who want information packages better get it soon. Who knows for how much longer PHS will even be around. This is a bummer.

GM recently opened a new heritage center and may be recalling there documentation to provide there own such service. That’s just a guess on my part, based on

1)PHS as to pay GM for each packet they send out, so maybe they don’t own the data.
2)GM recently started charging for a similar service for the Camaro. Which used to be free.

Again just an outsiders guess.

that sucks!! I hope all the information is still around and available to people one day. nothing worse than losing historical information.


thank god I got mine when i did.

Atleast GM keeps this stuff around .Other car company's just purge it from their database after a certain amount of time has passed.

Dave

There are some strange happenings going on with Pontiac, not only inside GM but outside. I'll bet a dollar the two issues are related.

From the GTASourcepage

The same thing happened to me when I tried order an info kit and window sticker for my 92 GTA. Hopefully things get straightened out at GM so that PHS can start documenting newer Pontiac's again.

I went through GM Canada for my Grand National Stuff...calll George Zapora at 905-440-7636 or 440-7618 M-F, 8-5 EST. If there is no answer, leave a message and they'll get back to you. Very nice and professional packet.

Ed

GM Vintage vehicle services is what you are talking about.

I thought they only did Canadian vehicles...?

I did it last November, no problems at all. My GN was sold in Florida, then moved to CA, then Hawaii. They got me the original shipping and sales documents on the car, all the RPO codes, build #'s, and even the 1986 dealer ordering bulletins. Great packet, and very helpful people. I think the cost was $60. I am having my service tage reproduced off of their data. Until I got the packet I was not even sure the car was a GN.

WEll hopefully I will be able to talk to Jim M in 2 weeks, he is usually at the Trans Am nationals and I have had his ear a few times...

I will try & remember to ask.

John

I spoke to JIM and this is what he told me.

for 18 years GM has allowed PHS to do all of the historical services on Pontiacs. In all of their wisdom they pulled the dealer invoices on the 87+ cars. THis is not because of PHS being in any kind of disarray, it has to do with GM. Also since Pontiac is the only division with a company like PHS, GM literally tried to physically break into Jims office and steal information as to destry it. Apparently since none of the other divisions have this luxury they did not want Pontiac to have it either...

THere is a battle brewing and I am not sure what is in store for PHS, I would recommed getting any info you can before its all gone.

John

I'm glad I got my '89 TTA done last year ... I fault GM 100% for this mess. PHS was a wonderful service - Leave it to GM to mess up a great thing.

Mike

wow, that is very sad indeed. It is sad when history is suppressed and or destroyed like this. It just doesn't make sense for a company to do this. I see no real profit gain/loss to be had from tearing apart PHS.

gotta love the nobody's special, everyone's the same mentality. Why do they even bother having different brand names anymore?

Sounds like GM's finest hour.

ordered mine today. Curious as to where it was sold among other things

You can still get the information. but from 2 places. PHS still has all of the production info, but you will have to go through GM to get your dealer invoice in order to order a Window sticker ( I am not really sure if you can get window stickers for 87+ firebirds either at this potin all you can do is ask. )

John

thanks--guess I'll wait and see whats charged to my VISA

I don't know what info they'll send, because as you could see by the letter I posted from Jim in my original post, they supposedly could give me NOTHING at all, period. He even returned the paperwork for my order. But maybe that's changed since okfoz has spoken with Jim, so be sure to post what happens with your request.

As for getting info from the dealer, I've tried that in the past, too, and according to my local dealer, he can get me NOTHING either. And I'm a very good customer there for parts, so if he could get anything at all, he'd let me know it. But again, if this is something GM has recently taken away from the outside source(PHS), maybe that's changed, too, and the dealers can get it now. LOL, just what the dealer will wanna mess with! Right!

Because of this thread, I contacted a friend in GM that's very personal with the Camaro. I asked what he knew about this issue with PHS and told him it doesn't make GM look good. Here's his response:

"We are not trying to prevent people from getting historic records. Trust me on this.
That said -- I cannot talk about the issues surrounding this.
(and Jim is a good friend....)
You can assure people that we don't want to do away with that service."

That said, I would think there is more to this than what we know.

Well, if that is or isn't the case, we should start making some posts on GM's Fast Lane Blog page to rectify this. Make GM Execs aware that we know about this and that they shouldn't screw with us sourcing documentation of our cars from PHS. Why'd they care, its just old paperwork to them. Unless the rumors of GM killing Pontiac off next is true....

Pontiac got screwed sooo many times by GM Execs over the years. 1974: GTO dies forgotten as a glorified Ventura (Nova body), 1976: 455 dropped from production due to emissions requirements and gas prices, 1977: 301 created to meet emissions, but GM forced changes to save money/weight by casting it with thin walls and weak cranks. 1978: Poncho's beloved 400ci production ceased 'cuz GM said it was too costly to make it meet emissions. Pontiac makes enough extra blocks for 1979 T/A 4 speeds only. 1979: Pontiac Turbo 301 created to fill the void left by the demise of the 400. Engineers took this crappy engine & beefed it up with as much stuff as the Bean-counters allowed. 1981: Turbo 301 & Turbo 301 II scrapped in mid-81 during the design phase for the 3rd-Gen Firebird T/A, (Look at the turbo logos on 1982 promo pictures: hood)! 1982: all V8 Firebird models come with only a Chevy 305, Firebird available with a 4 cyl for the first time?!!? YUCK!!! 1983: Grand Prix becomes a glorified Monte Carlo. 1984: Fiero enters the scene, rushed through development, with little GM money to support it. People die in fires related to toxic gas emitted from the body panels melting during fires. Caused by bad electrical wiring & grenading 4 cyl. engines that shot broken/molten rods first through the block and then the body. 1988: Fiero dies due to poor sales and warrantee issues. (Hmm wonder why?) 1988: Grand Prix becomes a 4 door FWD toilet. 2002: Firebird's Dead. 2004: GTO returns with a screwed up sales campaign. 2006: Solstice, great car, hot sales, but flopped sales campaign with dumb Apprentice show. Then a Red Line version is added to the Saturn line-up and steals the show. GTO dies for the second time. 2007: Camaro returns for 2008/9, no Firebird, questionable GTO, crap vehicles for the rest of Pontiac's line-up....... GOD help the Tin Indian Division!

Well, evidently pressure has gotten to PHS (or a server is down. lol). http://www.phs-online.com/order.asp is a dead link this morning.

I found most of what you wrote was not specific against Pontaic--Chevy and other divisions got the same treatment. Most of it was the result of platform sharing.

I think Pontiacs been lucky for the most part.

1. 73-74 455 SD engines. This was the fastest car out of Detroit.

2. 89 Trans Am Turbo

3. dealer installed Street Legal Performance package. It was even advertised in brochures (89-92)

As you can see--the fastest 2nd and 3rd gen F-bodies were Firebirds. And they were faster the the Corvettes in those specific years.

4. The Solstice got the GXP version the same time as the RL--no special treatment of snub there. I am gussing you have never heard of it?

5. I liked the 74 GTO---it sold better then the 73.

Anyone know any email addresses or even physical addresses we could all send letters to and protest this? If enough people write Im sure they will re think what theyre doing.

87 1LE Iroc: Yeah, you're right, It was 4:03am, I was tired and cranky, (Insomnia sucks). But Pontiac has been on the decline.

Yes, I know of the whole Solstice program. I come from a Pontiac family. One Uncle is a head tech at a Poncho Dealer, another Uncle owns a sweet 70 Le Mans Sport, My Gramps is 76 and loved his Pontiacs until GM killed the full size RWD Bonneville. My Dad owned an '81 Firebird T/A. I'm 31 and have owned three: an '81 G.P. LJ w/ a transplanted '77 400ci, a 1979 Bonneville 301ci, and my current '86 Firebird. I followed the Solstice's development quite closely...especially the GXP Solstice..."Turbo Ecotec 2.0 with 2.1hp per cubic inch and its sister Red Line version from Saturn". I'd love to buy one, but I've got other priorities. GM scewed up all of its divisions at one point or another. I'm still loyal to the General, just upset with their antics & missed opportunities. Messing with PHS is a big thorn and wories me about Pontiac's future.

Subliminal: Search Engine "GM Fastlane"....Blog page and post in any Pontiac thread and the newest thread(s) you can find.

wow! Some one agreed with me on the 'Net!
hehe----I do agree that Pontaic has had some low points and times when GM did not give it much attention.

So, I have a question now. Since my 87 has NOTHING, and I do mean nothing... NO RPO sticker, NO tire loading or GVWR sticker, no build sheet, etc (I only have the owner's manual because I ordered it from HelmInc around Christmas last year)... And I kind of would like to replace some of these stickers in the future (plus I would also like to know the factory exterior paint RPO code), so where am I supposed to get them, or am I SOL for this sort of thing?

BTW, I suppose I USED to have the RPO sticker inside the console glove box as I think the adhesive square is still there, but my stickers on the driver's door have disintegrated due to weathering and age, that's why they need to be replaced...

your not SOL, you can still get the dealer invoce through GM and get the rest of the package from PHS.

I suspect that it may be that GM is only going back 20 years. So it may be that PHS MIGHT get the 1987 stuff back in about a year. I have no basis for this other than the fact that 1987-2007 is 20 model years, justa guess.. So if you wait a year you might get lucky OR you might get stuck when they up the prices...

John

you can't get anything from PHS right now. I know---I tried.

where can i find this service for the camaros?

Well I just tried this for my TTA and that was a NO GO.......He told me theres no way they can do US cars

okfoz, you say we can get the dealer invoice from gm still? how would i go about doing this, do i just go to a GM dealership?
thanks,
Brian

I talked to Jim a few days ago....He said that if you know the dealership that sold you the car...........hes able to get you everything you need.

Hey! I've used that service in the past to get the invoice for my '83 Z28. But they only provide invoices, IIRC.

It was a phone number to call, and I talked to a lady. It was pretty simple. And the cool part is that she was also able to get me the invoice for my '87 Formula, too(before I knew about PHS, from whom I then got it again, along with all the other stuff PHS sends).

Unfortunately, I don't remember who that was or what the phone number is. But I'd found it here on TGO, so some extensive searching might find it again.

But the dealer info would be on the invoice. Then with that info, apparently PHS can provide the rest of the info.

But to get a repro window sticker(which is all I'd really need for this '89 anyway since I'd already have the invoice through that phone service), PHS requires that you purchase everything--unless the point of that is simply to get the dealer info off of the invoice(which I'd already have).

So in a round-about way, we could still get all the info available.

Off the top of my head I cannot remember... all I remember was Jenkstep

read this thread: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/hi...-your-car.html

From the original post in that thread mentioning "one girl" doing the research, it sounded very familiar. Then I found my own post about halfway through. So that's the one!

It looks like the service has changed, though... not free anymore. But the latest post in it is from this year, so it would appear that the service is still available.

Thanks!