Speaking of rare breeds. Do you think these cars are worth a lot more than the Firehawks or 1LE's? I've haven't seen these around for a while now. I know they where very low in production, just curious how much a mint condition would go for these days. Back in 1989, they were listed over $35,000K brand new. A lot more money than the GTA's and top of the line IROC-Z'S at that time. Plus they were a lot faster too which made them more attractive to collectors at that time.

They are worth a mint as far as third gens go. Just check eBay for the 89 Turbo Trans Am; you'll see what they go for...

Listed for $31K back in 89. They are starting to rebound pretty good as far as what they are worth now.

by far the most desirable thirdgen.. i want one too.. some guy out here had one on craigslist for $3500, he didnt relize it was anything special, probably thought it was just a t/a. by the time i saw it and called. it was just sold. he told me it sold within a couple hours of being for sale.. if only i saw it earlier, id be the proud owner of a tt/a.

I will be picking up a 75K mile TTA on saturday.I cant wait

Comparing the 1989 20th Anniversary Trans Am to other cars, even awsome low production cars like the Firehawk and 1LE cars, can be difficult.

After all the 1989 TTA did alot, it was the 20th anniversary of the Trans Am and the 1989 Indy 500 pace car. It was the first Indy pace car to do so without modification, and the first to use an in car camera. It was the quickest and fastest American production car of it's time, beating out the Corvette by a fairly large margin(0.93 seconds quicker/5.8mph faster in the 1/4 and 6 mph faster top speed, 161 for the TTA vs 155 for the Vette, according to Oct 1989 issue of Corvette Fever magazine). It recived alot of media attention on television and in magazines, even to this day.

That being said TTA production is far greater than the thirdgen Firehawk and any single year 1LE - though there are some rarer TTA's within the group like the hardtops with only 39 built(15 cloth, 24 leather). I wouldnt say one is worth more than the other right now scince the market seems all over the place but I think all three will do well when their time comes, and will help the overall value of thirdgen Firebirds.

I think ultimately the Firehawk will be worth more than a TTA for the simple fact of supply & demand. The TTA might actually be faster but they made 1555 of them compared to 25 Firehawks...

John

Only time will tell if the TTA or the Firehawk will be worth more than each other. Majority of the Firehawks were used for autocross racing and were well abused. Hence, only a few left that are still in mint condition. As for the TTA, they were more luxury street machines and executive driven, then later given to their sons or daughters to drive them to college. Any way you look at it, when you compare apples to apples, both the TTA and Firewhawks are true collectors which means they can hold top $$ value if you can find one that is in perfect condition.
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How much are you picking that TTA up for?

Personally I would rather have a 91-92 Firehawk or a factory 92 Formula 350 T-Top, than a 89 TTA.

Honestly, I see them all the time at car shows, and really, I don't hardly give them a second look.

While I am an FBody enthusiast, this keeps coming up and is incorrect. The 1978 Corvette Pace Car required no mechanical mods to pace the race. It was followed by the 86 Corvette which also needed no mods. Where do TTA owners get the info that it was the first? While it could add to the nostalgia of owning a car like this, the information is just not accurate.

I agree. There is a lot of wrong information about the TTA floating around out there. As you stated about being the first to have no mods is just flat out wrong.

Another misconception about the TTA is that GM rated it at 250hp because "GM's unwritten rule which stated no passenger vehicle shall have a higher hp rating than that year's Corvette."

That's just flat wrong. In 1989 the Corvette was rated at 240hp (or 245hp if you got the different exhaust). I don't know the exact reason why Pontiac gave it a 250hp rating, but the real hp rating was 300 (301 I think is the exact number).

I love the TTA - it's a BLAST! But yeah, there are some misconceptions about it.

Oh - MNformula350 - you are so right. I used to bring my TTA to shows, and it was always overlooked by the general public. They just have no clue what it is -or what it's about. Every now & then, someone will approach it and know what they are looking at something very special...

Chris
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1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am #760 (1890 miles)
1988 Chevrolet Corvette 35th Anniversary #1941/2050
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
1983 Delorean DMC-12
1986 Toyota Supra MKII
1985 Kawasaki Eliminator ZL900

I am not sure on this, as most of the cars that I have seen were low milage ones, There probably is a few that were actually raced, but most people that paid $39,995 for one did not take it and beat the crap out of it... I guess some did, Number 1 by far is the roughest one out there I have seen its still a really nice car, but you can tell that it was the press car...

I just meant that compared to a Firehawk or 91-92 Formula 350, I am not impressed by a TTA.

#1 - I see them all the time, every summer without fail.

#2 - They are all the same, other than the only 2 options they had were what Leather or cloth seating, and a hardtop or t-top.

Don't get me wrong, I love Turbo Buicks, I plan to do the swap into my Formula someday, And I will always respect a nice clean thirdgen (especially the Pontiacs), I just think that compared to the other cars I mentioned, the TTA's are more prevelant.

Thank you for correcting me many of the TTA websites list it as the first when as you stated it was the third. For example on http://89tta.turbobuicks.net/ttahist.htm it states "The three cars which did pace car duty were the first in the history of the Indianapolis 500 to do so with no performance modifications whatsoever. The only changes to the car were the usual safety equipment required by Indianapolis Motor Speedway (including a five-point seat belt harness), pace car lighting, and television-related equipment." The Corvette HP thing is also posted on 89tta.turbobuicks.net

If you can, what else is misinformation? Maybe we can correct this on TTA websites so it doesnt stay out there

With the large gap in production numbers I would think the thirdgen Firehawks will do better than most TTA's eventually, with the exception of the hardtops which are already starting to bring a premium if you can find one. But right now that doesnt seem to be the case. Remember rare does not always mean desirable or valuable, after all there are lots of other cars just as rare or rarer than the 1970 and 1971 HemiCuda verts that dont bring anywhere near that kind of money(like the 1969 Trans Am vert).

*facepalm*


Was this listed in the summer time? I remember the day after I bought my 95 T/A I saw a TTA for super cheap listed.

it was around october, november..

In 2002 The Book "Cars & Parts 2002 Ultimate Collector Car Price Guide" states that a 1969 Trans Am Convertible is worth around 125,000... NADA states 1,500,000 and at last check thats what one went for at auction... I am not sure what the last 1970 or 1971 Hemi Cuda went for but...

Or did I read your post wrong and your saying the 69 TA is like the Hemi Cuda?

John

I am saying that there were 8 1969 Trans Am verts, and while I havent heard of one changing hands for anywhere near 7 figures lets say that it is worth $1,500,000 , there are 9 1971 Hemi Cuda verts and a quick check shows them changing hands in recent years between $2,200,000 and $3,000,000 (some with correct but non original engines). Not to mention the one that went to $4,100,000 at auction.

So while they are similar in rarity, with the Trans Am being rarer and in my opinion a nicer car, the Cuda pulls considerably more money.

What I'm saying is rare doesnt always mean desirable or valuable, and just because something is rarer doesnt mean it will bring more money. I'm also not saying the TTA will be worth more than the Firehawk or vice versa, just that the being rare isnt always enough.

THere is a group of Very Rich people that go to the Auctions and simply swap cars, they are slowly pushing up the values of the cars, Guy 1 buys guy 2's car and then a few years later he buys the car back at an inflated rate. To offset the whole thing guy 2 buys guy 1 car at an inflated rate etc...

We are really splitting hairs at this point... When the same car goes across the block or there are a group of these cars that continuously go across the block we have to think there is something up... Heck there were 9 made, I suspect that only 6 or 7 at most truely survive, and have 3 of them go across the platform, indicates that someone is playing games... I could be wrong, I did get the info about the trading hands from a very reliable source (Jim Mattison) however...


John

JOhn

Your right and I'm not trying to argue I'm just saying that being rare isnt always enough to make a car more valuable than another car.

BTW the 1971 HemiCuda convertible is a very well documented car and all 9 are known to exist

^ This close (holds fingers tightly together) to purchasing Shawn's TTA #934 over @ TurboBuicks.com, but I can't right now though. Had it of been a Firehawk though, I would have immediately sold the Z06 to get my hands on it....

-Rob

Historically speaking the following is typically true: If you have the following that makes it more valuable:

1) Rare - THis alone does not do anything for value, just because its a I4 and they made only a few does not make it worth anything to a collector.
2) Performance - No argument from any of us that a high performance model will sell easier and be more desirable than a regular Plain jane one. The case ofthe 69 Trans Am, I am not sure how well it performed but I bet it was not as good as the fore mentioned cuda...
3) Convertibles HELP tremendously, especially when talking about low production numbers. Typically a Vert sells for 1.5 to double of its hard top cousin. And thats if the production was in the thousands like most of the Camaro Verts from 88-92.
4) Style, it helps, people like F-bodies, they are sexy. Moreso than the Mustang which seems to be more plain looking... IMHO... An 82-92 F-body is unique in style, there is nothing that really looks like them, An 80's mustang looks similar to a Charger, or Chevette in my optinion, it just does not have the style...



JOhn

Deals can still be had on these cars but they are still more expensive than a regular 3rd gen. Check out the link below for a $8500 TTA for sale.

http://www.racingjunk.com/post/10632...-Pace-Car.html

I picked up my TTA back in Oct. 2006 for $7500 with 198K on the clock. As you can see it was very well maintained. When I bought it the front seats had been recovered, a few sensors changed, and new tires put on it. Ran great for the better part of 6 months before developing a cam knock. It is currently under-going an engine build up along with some new carpet in near the future.

The TTA was the first to need nothing to help it to pace the race.

The 78 needed mods, as well as the 86, to pace the race. The TTA needed absolutely nothing, right down to the tires to do so. No exhaust mods, to roll bars, different tires, etc.

The info is very accurate as it was the first to need absolutely nothing.

Where is this info coming from?




The Indy Pace Car site does not mention it, yet mentions the '78 being "the first Pace Car in history to use an entirely stock drivetrain."

It also mentions, "As with the first Corvette pace car in 1978, the 1986 Corvette needed no mechanical modifications to pace the race. In fact it was the first street-legal car to pace Indy since the previous Corvette."

For the TTA, it says, "1500 specially equipped 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Am coupes were built, and the three track cars were actually selected directly from this pool of production cars. The only modifications required were mandatory safety requirements."

I would think if the TTA was the "first" of anything, they would have mentioned it here, as they did with the '78 Corvette.

There is also a book that I have on all the Indy Pace Cars. Its says nothing about the TTA being the first.

I'm not trying to be a harda** about it, but I would like to see some documentation on it before I believe it.


Chris
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1989 Pontiac Turbo Trans Am #760 (1890 miles)
1988 Chevrolet Corvette 35th Anniversary #1941/2050
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
1983 Delorean DMC-12
1986 Toyota Supra MKII
1985 Kawasaki Eliminator ZL900

Also, if the TTA was the 1st to Pace Indy without modifications, then what were the mods required for the 78 and 86 Vette?

I'm trying to find the magazine articles from back then. Pretty sure the 78 had no cat. The 86 had a roll bar if I'm not mistaken, might not have had cats either. Probably more for both but not certain yet.

If I can find the magazine articles, I believe they were Hot Rod or Car Craft, then I'd know for sure.

They weren't big mods but mods nonetheless.

Chances are the 89 TTA would have been the First TRANS AM not to need any modifications which eventually leads to the first car... That would be my guess...

"Oh - MNformula350 - you are so right. I used to bring my TTA to shows, and it was always overlooked by the general public."

I think the general public have the general notion that [good Camaro/Firebird = V-8] so they see a v-6 (turbo or not) and just pass it up.

I think one of the things that most of us really overlook is our cars are not that old when your talking the whole scheme of things. The oldest car just turned 26, and the youngest car just turned 15, so there are quite a few cars still on the road. Fortunately and unfortunately they are getting fewer and fewer which means the nice ones are getting hard to find and getting snatched up by collectors. The up side is in about 5 or 10 years we will be getting more attention at car shows, the down side is parts are getting more scarce at U-Pull-It places... I jumped on an 89 Firebird for a front bumper and some other misc pieces mostly because finding the parts is getting hard to find.

NOW is the time to buy, the economy sucks the prices are low and they ARE going up in value...

John

As for the "no mods to pace" debate. GM says that the TTA needed only safety equipment, no performace mods, to pace.

This information comes from 2 places that I can find. One is the 1989 Pontiac line brochures and the other is a series of magazines ads for the 1989 TTA.

Kevin

Also, the TTA is the only one NOT listed as a "pace car replica" , the street corvettes are though. GM pulled the Pace TTAs from the PAS production line and added the safety harnesses, fire system and the strobe lights.

I just found this information on a Corvette forum. This was from a copy of a Cheverolet Motor Division Inter-Organizational Letter dated March 21, 1978. This letter describes each Pace Car in detail, identifies the VIN's, explains how each Pace Car will be used, and the disposition of each one after the race.

Actual Pace Car, Serial# 1Z8748S900001 (8Y052)

Specifications: First production line build of RPO Z-78 Limited Edition Corvette. Vehicle will receive qualified production engine and driveline equipment and retain all certified emission equipment and original air conditioning system. CB radio being reworked to speedway frequency.

Assignment: This vehicle is the #1 production stock Limited Edition Corvette that will be the Official Pace Car driven by Jim Rathmann in starting the 62nd Annual Indianapolis 500 Mile Race on Sunday, May 28.

This vehicle is classified as a corporate historical vehicle and will be returned to Chevrolet for disposition following the race.

Scott,
not to split hairs, it states "Vehicle will recieve Qualified Production Engine..." I am not sure how many people area aware of this but there are differences between engines, although they might have the same specs and they might have the same aftermarket components not all are the same. The 3800 Engine for example made by Buick, There was a small team that would inspect All engines, heads, cams, cranks etc for an assembly they would take the BEST and they would go into Buicks, the 2nds would go into Pontiac and Olds, The rest would go into everything else.

The point is some engines run better than others, the truth is the engine that they placed in that 1978 Vette was probably a stock engine by its numbers only, but the assembly was more than likely step above from the normal production unless by some strange coincidence that another car got a similar powerplant.

I might be way off base, but from my experience that tends to be true for GM, Cadillac got the best parts, even if they were the same parts, Buick, then Olds, Pontiac and finally Chevy. The same holds true for GMC trucks are slightly better quality than a Chevy although for all intents and purposes they should be the same... I am fortunate to have family members who worked at Turnstead (Fisher) and was over QC...

John

I wouldn't be surprised if "qualified engine" meant balanced and blueprinted. Wouldn't be surprised if they did that to the trans and rear also.