I got a confusing car I'm looking at. Its a 92 Firebird that the guy claims is a Formula with a 305 TBI LO3 motor. Now from what I've seen the LO3 was dropped from everything but the base Firebird in 90. I was under the assumption that all Formulas from 90-92 were TPI cars. Also this car doesnt have a Formula hood, its a Trans Am style hood with the vents and no buldge. Was that hood offered on the base models? Here is the for sale post the guy has up for the car. Please dont clutter it up, post your comments back here. I just want to know what is going on with this car. http://www.mfba.org/showthread.php?p=499450#post499450 Thanks for the info.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/hi...rmula+l03+1991

I believe the Tech Data is wrong.

The hood is wrong, the wing is correct.

As a matter of fact most 91-92 formula were LO3

The TBI engine is the base engine for the 88-92 Formulas. TPI was the base engine on the Trans Ams and GTA's.

All Formulas had the bulge hood though right? Whats your opinion, is it a Formy or not?

hoods are easy to change. I can't imagine some one cloning TBI Formula either.

Since it has the proper wrap around spoiler... maybe.

It is impossible to tell without looking at the RPO codes.

Yeah that is a Formula, I am almost positive, like said before you can change a hood in a matter of minutes. I would buy it, it is a beautiful car and like they said why would you clone a LO3 Formula, though it makes me mad it has no Formula decals like mine because nobody bothered to put them back on.

I don't think changing the spoiler/decklid/hatch or wheels takes much more time then replacing the hood.

The question was, "why would anyone clone an LO3 Formula?" Because he can. Actually, a base model with an LO3 is the only one you could use for a clone, without changing the engine.

Since the LO3 was the only engine available to both, the base model and the Formula, there'd be no way to tell by the VIN if it's really a Formula. So the RPO codes would be needed for verification.

But if the SPID label isn't available either, then an uneducated, potential buyer probably wouldn't know any other way to confirm it, other than by a visual inspection of the optional parts... if he even knew what those parts were supposed to be. He probably wouldn't know he could still get the RPOs for a '92 from his local GM dealer.

And when there's someone there who 'seems' to know more than you, and he's telling you something like, "in 1992, the TA hood was optional on the Formula," like the guy near the end of that linked message board thread, the potential buyer might be likely to believe it.

So most-likely, a seller could get away with passing-off a base bird with an LO3 as a Formula.

But enough of that, lol. Whatever the car is that's in question here, it's a very nice car. If it's really a clone, then a lot of money was spent on it to make it so, so that selling price wouldn't be unreasonable. And if it's really a Formula, then it's still a nice one, and that selling price wouldn't be unreasonable.

Just my

Actually there is probably a better chance that it is a Formula than a Firebird without the ground effects. I have seen a lot of Formuals (all which were NA wit hthe GFX) but only two or three Firebirds without the GFX which was a Very popular option.

Personally I would not invest in a car like that again unless it was for parts and I could get it cheap.

John

the best way to tell is the RPOs, like previously mentioned. the RPO for what GM called the "formula merchandising package" is W66. also, the WS6 option was standard on the formula and is also identifiable by the 32mm front sway bar, a dark blueish set of polyurethane bushings (if they're the stockers), "performace suspension" badge below the dash mounted map pocket, wrap around spoiler, power steering cooler (which is pretty much a tube extending the return line under the radiator), the 16x8 "turbo cast" wheels, the Z-rated tire placard (door sticker), and obviously the door/bumper cover badging. hope tihs helps.

Since that hood did not come on a Formula, I would check under the front end, look at the bumper brackets, etc... see if any damage or body work has been done... which is usually a good reason to replace a hood.

Otherwise, it does look nice... Almost like my 91 before I started moding it...

Raf

Actually the Front Sway bars were 36mm not 32mm. And the Power Steering cooler was not a standard thing on ALL formuals, my 87 does not have it to my knowledge.

John

just the 90-92 formulas had the p/s cooler

Actually, the base engine was also the L03/TBI for certain year Trans Am's (At least 88). That's what my 88 originally had.

You are correct, 88 and 89 the LO3 was available in the Trans Am, though we'd like to forget about that

Actually from 1982 - 1987 the Base Engine in the TA was the LG4, the LO3 replaced the LG4 in 1988 as the base engine, although it was an improvement it was not a huge improvement. I do know that the LO3 also got the more restrictive Heads, I wonder how the LO3 would perform with the 87 LG4 or 87-92 LB9 heads. The easiest way to remember what year they changed to the TA having the LB9 and the IROC and later Z28 having the Base engine being the LB9 is 1990, which is also the same year that they wnet to Speed density (MAP).

John

??? My 91 base Firebird has the p/s cooler. My buddy's 89 GTA had one too.

I'd bet it's a real Formula that someone swapped a T/A hood onto. Most 91-92 Firebirds had the GFX package. It was packaged in the W68 RPO which is some kind of appearance package; (I'd have to dig out my window sticker to get the actual name of the package).

My formula has the LO3.

The easiest way to tell, is check the dash board, right below the map pouch. There should be a "Performance Suspension" logo for the WS6, which is the only thing special about a formula.




Also, turn the wheels all the way to the left, and look to see if it has the huge swaybar.

You're right. I meant to say TPI was the base engine for all GTA's, and 90-92 Trans Ams, but TBI was the base engine for 88-89 Trans Ams.

What do you mean "Is the only thing special about a formula." In reality the Formula was available with two other engines than the Firebird, The formula also got 16" Wheels, which was NA on the base, and the Formula got the Offset Buldge hood and the Aero Spoiler... No offence but I really think you missed the bucket on that one. Add to that a quick ratio steering box, and it turned out the Formual was the fastest of all the Firebirds when equally equipped to the Trans Am and the GTA...

John

I was waiting for someone to jump on that one, John. I almost posted something last night, but I thought it would be fun to wait and see what others posted, lol.

I don't think he meant that in the context that it came across. My guess is that he meant "in base trim," meaning comparing a base Firebird to a base Formula.

Performance-wise, the Formula's standard LO3 and gage package were optionable on a base Firebird. Limited-slip and 4-wheel discs were also optional on a base bird(like on a Formula). So the only standard Formula performance item not available to a base Firebird was the WS6 suspension(which included the wheels and tires and steering you mentioned). All the other standard Formula items that made the car different from a base Firebird were cosmetic.

So in that sense, he was correct.

Actually, I don't think 4-wheel disc were available on the base models, only on the Formys Trans am and was standard on the GTA.

Sorry to offend you guys. I guess I was thinking in terms of my car too much. All my car is, is a base firebird, with fancy wheels and big swaybars. It doesent have anything that would make a performance package cool, like a fast motor, posi-trac, or GFX which I really hate the lack of.

I guess I kinda got taken on the deal when I bought the car. I saw the formula stickers on the side, and the WS6 on the centercaps, and thought it was a firebird version of the IROC-Z. Then, the guy poped the hood to show me the motor, I saw the round aircleaner, he said it was a 4bbl 305. He even told me how if you pump the gas 3 times, it starts up cold faster. I never bothered to take off the air cleaner there.

Also, I took it for granted that something as cool as a "formula" would have posi, and would also have no speed governor. Took it on the highway first day it was registered, and hit fuel cut at 120. I was so pissed I could kill someone. I paid $4,500 for a POS.

$4500 ro a 57K Car, I think you got a reasonable deal. THe car looks nice.

ONe thing about the LO3, you can really improve upon it, get yourself a nice 96-98 Vortec Block & Heads, Intake, and then plop your TBI on it... I would bet it would really wake it up. Of course you might need to do some tuning....

John

The car had 47,100 when I bought it. Not its over 57,000. I drive alot.

How muck does a vortec motor go for? I had always planned to do the vortec heads, GMPP TBI intake, and LT1 cam. That way, I could preserve the mint bottom end. But now that I think of it, a whole vortec 5.7 would probably be had cheap enough to cover most of the cost of the above. I would just have to settle for "higher" milage than the odo shows. But its basically the same thing I guess, I read that the L31 even uses the production LT1 cam!

The other reason I was kinda heated about the deal, was when I got home, I found out that both previous owners had only put gas in it, and changed the oil. Origional air filter, fuel filter, brakes, AC Spark Plugs, packard wires, AC cap and rotor.

Since then, I have been stuck replacing stuff as it goes, because it was never though about bu them.

I'd guess that most 47,000 cars still have nearly all of those original parts(except for the air filter, which could've been an AC replacement). But for its age in years, it couldn't have hurt for someone to have changed something somewhere along the way, though it's not unreasonable that they didn't.

But many people sell their cars when it's time to start spending money on them, and now is that time for your car. At least it was, otherwise, well-maintained, and you got a good-running, good-looking car. So I wouldn't say you got "stuck."

I'd say you were lucky to have found such a car, and the car was lucky that you're the one who found it. Otherwise, it could've gotten to the point where someone might've gotten "stuck."

I'm going by my "Car Order Worksheet" for 1987, but I suppose that could've changed in later years.

On the worksheet, the "block," where you'd put the checkmark to order an option, is blank, meaning you can "check" it and order it. Otherwise, where options weren't available, that "block" had an N/A in it.

Most of those things really may not have needed to be changed, except the air filter. All of the other things were within the limits.. I would love to get a set of OE wires for my 89 Vert... Heck they usually say 50K or more before you have to change your fuel filter the first time. The Wires, cap & Rotor can be good up to 50K, any more they say 100K before your first tuneup...

John

ok just to make sure , my car " 88 lo3" has the performance supension badge on it , , the studs for the wrap around wing " previous owner said some kids stole the wing " the sway bar looks pretty beefy , front disc brakes but rear drum brakes " wouldnt a ws6 have all around disc brakes?" so do i have a ws6 or no

Maybe. If it is a Trans Am to could or could no have WS6. Rear disk brakes mean nothing in 88 was far as WS6.

Agreed. My 1988 Trans Am has WS6 with rear drum brakes. The SPID sticker supports it's correct so it doesn't get much more affirmative than that.

yes it is a T/A it used to have the decals " now its all primered up " it has the performance suspension badge on it and it used to have a wrap around style wing

Both the Performance Suspension badge and wrap around wing are standard on a 88 TA.

And to go one step further, since Birdstheword909 was asking if he has WS6 or not, the Performance Suspension badge does not mean WS6 as that badge came on Trans AMs that didn't have WS6 as well.

so , how can you tell from ws6 or no ws6 , whats a dead give away ?

WS6 RPO on the SPID sheet

36mm front sway bar would be a good indication.

1) If it was a GTA or Formula
2) As mentioned the 36mm sway bar.
3) The quick steering ratio box... hard to tell without a comparison.
4) 16" Wheels IF...
a) 1985 - 1987, 16" wheels were WS6 only IIRC)
b) 1988 - 1991 16" Wheels with "WS6" Center caps. Keep in mind that in 1992 for some reason several Trans Am's got the WS6 center caps even when used on non-WS6 Cars.

John

yes it has the 16 inch wheels , the sway bar looks pretty beefy . and the sticker inside the cener console is gone

Measure the front sway bar. If you can eye the difference between a 34 and a 36 I'd be very impressed.

ha , i wish !.. but anywho , i wll measure the sway bar , just one quick question , does anyone know what exactly the ws6 package included , IIRC stiffer supension no ?

IIRC THe IROC until later had 34mm sway bars, fluid filled shocks and struts, (which made it ride harder than the WS6 Gas filled), and the "Wonder Bar" Performance wise is about the same, just harder hitting, not as enjoyable of a ride.

John