Just completed reading the article on the GTA Source Page about the origins of the GTA. The article discusses the prototype GTA as being created from a new 1985 Trans AM, as an upper class model to the Firebird line. According to the aritcle the bosses at Pontiac had made all of the final approvals to produce the GTA during the 85 model year, but goverment Gas Guzzler regulations and corporate buracracy delayed the introduction of the new model until the 1987 model year. My car is a late production 1986 Trans AM WS6. It is equiped with the 305 TPI engine, and has the 9 bolt diff with 3:27 gears. The car is fully loaded, and even came with the PW7 wheel option. People confuse the car with a GTA a lot, although to me it clearly looks like a Trans AM. The car even has some parts consistant with the 1987 model year, such as the fan belt arrangement. The engine is a 1986 version of the 305. Since the GTA was planned during 1985, and my car shares some hardware with the GTA, is it reasonable to conclude that the car was a transistion car to the GTA? I am not trying to convince myself that the car is rare or collectable, as there were thousands of units built with similar equipment. John, as always, I am very interested in your thoughts about this? If I am FOS, just say so... Thanks,Charles

Just a small correction. It was never planned for an 85 introduction--the idea was concieved in 85 and theres no way you can implement a new sub model with in a model year.

It never says 86 was a target date either.

As for you fan belt arrangement--thats not unique or special to anything. GTA related. 82-87 were all the same, I'd bet.

88 they went serpentine (one belt--switched alt location ect)

You have a nicely loaded 86 Trans Am--and with those wheels some people not too familar with GTAs confuse it with one.

I would agree to some extent.

Since the prototype had std seats, but the GTA wound up with the new lear sieglers, I would say the closest transition car to the GTA would be a black monochrome 86 T/A with the Recaro seats and PW7.

I wonder how much weight was saved by dropping the Hi-Techs Turbo rims.

Strange the Formula was not cut in on the PW7 action till later.

Were the PW7 rims even available in '86? I thought the first year for them was '87. I have never seen an '86 with those rims on it, only the snowflake 16" rims.

Yes, 86 was the debut year for that rim.

The article does not imply that 1986 was the target date, but explains why 1987 was, by explaining the process for implementing a new model. The article does talk about Pontiac losing market share to the Mustang GT, and the Z-28, and thier desire to create a high-end Fbody to compete with the high end cars of those brands.

Some of my family worked for GM in product development back in the old days, and one family member still does. According to them, a new model can take several years to develop. New models start of as a concept, then a non working model. The next step is that they are prototyped, studied, tested, refined, approved, and sometime later produced. The end result may or may not resemble the concept.

My take on this is that since Pontiac had the goal of marketing a high end F-body, in 1985, but was not ready to produce the GTA until 1987, some of the late 1986's started showing up with some various high-end options that would later be standard fare on the GTA. The GTA was not a totally new model, but an evolution of an existing one. The GTA prototype was a modified 1985 Trans AM.


As for the belt arrangment, I did not claim that my car has a specific GTA style belt arrangement. There is no such thing. According to NAPA parts manuals there were some slight changes in the belt arrangements between the 1986 fbody, and the 1987 fbody. The belts called for by the book for 1986 do not fit my car. The belts called for 1987 do fit. All that means is that there were minor changes that were designed for 87, but began before the completion of the 86 model run, which is a common practice in mass production cars. The parts books could also be wrong.

Charles

I recently was looking at the salesman binder for this era. They wanted to have 4 main price points, the base line Firebird for younger buyers, the mid level Formula for the single guy with performance and price in mind, the Trans Am to the guy who has started making some money and wanted a fast car, and the GTA geared at the married professional wanting no corners cut. They even point out to the person ordering cars for the lot to avoid optioning cars in a certain price point in such a way that it interferes with the next price point up. Examples given were V8 engines or T tops on base line cars. So it appears that they wanted to maintain a certain price point to define the lines. However, anyone could custom order just about anything they wanted, but most cars were ordered by the dealership under the set guidelines and sold off the lot.

The history of my 86 is well known and documented. The car was ordered by Harry's Pontiac in Asheville NC, specifically for the wife of the owner. That explains why the car was ordered with so many options. She drove the car as a demonstrator until late 1987. The 1986 TA was then replaced with a fully loaded 1988 Formula. The dealer's wife liked the cross laced wheels better then the Formy wheels, so they were swapped out. The first retail buyer of the car bought the car with the Formula wheels from Harry's Pontiac in 1987, and owned the car until after her death in 2003. I bought the car from her family in 2005. Her mechanic was sure the car had the Formula wheels when the car was purchased in 1987. Since the Formula wheels were not available until 1988, they could not have been ordered on a 1986 car. After I bought the car, I used the RPO code sheet to decode the entire car, and discovered that the car had been ordered with the PW7, cross laced wheel option. The original owner's family verified to me that the dealer told them they had swapped out the wheels, for the dealer's wife. I ordered the information packet from PHS, and the PW7 wheel option was listed for this car. I replaced the non correct Formula wheels with new old stock GM cross laced wheels, in an attempt to keep the car as historically accurate as possible. Unfortunately, the dimpled versions were not available.
Charles

If they are the same PW7 wheels that were on the '87 GTA, then they should be non-dimpled. The dimpled version came out on '88.

Forgive, me I am old, forgetful, and get things a** backwards sometimes. The car would have had the early non-dimpled wheels originally. The wheels that are on it now are the last version of the crossed lace wheel. They were the last of the new old stock that Classic Industries bought from GM, before they started making the reproduction wheels that are available now.

Charles

When my father bought his 86 ta in mid july of that year, they had to give him the gta rims and other parts because they were getting ready for the release of 87 and had no 86 parts. I'm assuming there's others like this besides my own.

People commonly called the PW7 rims, or PW7 Gold rims, as "GTA rims" but that's not quite correct. PW7 rims were made available to the Trans AM, with some years PW7 Gold rims also being available to the Trans AM. It's not uncommon to find a 1986+ Trans AM with PW7 rims and there was different colors depending on the year (White, Red, Charcoal, Black etc.)

In 1986, the Trans AM could be ordered with PW7 rims and Gold was one of those color options. When the GTA was introduced in 1987, those PW7 Gold rims were then restricted to the GTA only. However, the Trans AM could still be ordered with the PW7 rims, but Gold was no longer available to them. Then, in 1991, there was a slight change to this policy as some Trans AM combos could be ordered with PW7 Gold rims - once again.

It would make sense for Pontiac to be subtlety experimenting with certain things on 85 sale models that would be included on the 87 GTA.
You find out what works and what doesn't. Kind of like how 92 Birds used extra bonding agents to get rid of rattles. This would have obviously been included in 4th gens.
But to say that it matters? I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Actually my rims r the black pw7 rims. I wish that he had gotten the gold ones.

Charles, you make a good point. Many of the items that made up the eventual GTA option package were available earlier on the Trans Am in 1985 and 1986. The only items not offered earlier that come immediately to mind were the 5.7L engine and the AQ9 bucket seats.

The GTA had a pretty darn good platform to use as a springboard, IMO.

BTW, thanks for visiting The Source Page.

I have a nice set of gold ones sitting in boxes. Consider a trade? What condition are your black ones?

Thanks for the compliment and the information. The GTA source page is a real find. I found out some more information about my car since I made the original post. We attended the Fbodygathering in Atlanta in 2009 and again in 2010. The old TA took first place for stock 82-87 Firebird in 2009, and again in 2010. It also earned "Best Firebird" 2010 from Scott Settlemire of GM. Needless to say I was surprised and shocked! Because of those wins the car got quite a bit of attention. It really is nothing special, it is just a garage kept, two owner, all original pampered baby with 29K original miles.The additional information is that the car came from the factory with the Pontiac Performance Sound option, which apparently is very rare for 1986. There are a more cars built from 87 and up that have the option, but not many 86's. I would love to know just how many there acutally are. Ian Key, of Key's Audio told me that he was not aware that any 86's had this option, but there it is, with the option listed on the build sheet, window sticker and the code tag in the glove box. The system consists of a Delco AM/FM/Cassette with graphic equalizer, a separate amplifier, gain control and switch in the dash, and factory subwoofers in the sail panels.

The UQ7 sound system ran from 84-88 according to what I've read. I wouldn't say it was really all that rare for any of those years, but then I've had three 86 Firebirds and two of them had it. What I'd consider rare now is finding one that still works with all the original components. Backyard audiophiles always seem to have replaced this piece or that piece or hacked up the harness installing aftermarket components trying to upgrade or replace failed components.

As much as i do want the gold ones, i'll hold on to the original rims. My Rims are in almost new condition. But thank you for the offer. If you were to sell them how much would you charge?

My car is similar to yours. I have the performance sound, stock cassette deck(blaupunkt) everything is stock including speakers,original tires. got 12k miles on it. Garage kept and only 1 owner besides me,my father. But the rust underneath from the humidity in the garage is horrible.. Got any suggestions? I'm afraid my fuel line is gunna burst from the rust and ill catch on fire haha

Sorry, they are not for sale. That sounds illogical, but there is some screwed up logic in my reasoning.My car has the black ones, and the car is blue over silver, so the gold ones would be a little too many colors for that car. My original black PW7 wheels have some clear coat peeling, and it it was more costs effective to buy a new set of wheels for it then have those restored. The OEM's are going to be kept stored since they came on the car. Anything I remove from the car to replace is packed into a box and placed on a shelf. I originally purchased the gold ones thinking that I would repaint the centers black, then I realized that the coating is some sort of rubber, so painting them was not good option. My second plan was to send them to have them stripped and chrome plated to install on the car for shows. If I do that I can't show in the stock class any more.There are always modified cars that are more crisp then mine is, however there usually none in the stock class that are all original, WS6, TPI, highly optioned, T-top car, with only 29K miles on the clock so in the 100 point shows my car does very well. I don't go to 1000 point shows, because they would nail me on some minor issues. I would rather have a 98 point original car then a 100 point restored car, so my car proudly wears some minor wear and tear for its 25 years.I figure that if someone wants to trade for an equally nice set of black wheels, I will trade the gold ones. I would rather have the black ones in case I ever damage one of the set that I am running now. Admittedly that is not likely, as the car only gets driven between 200 and 500 miles each year.

It sounds like I had gotten some incorrect information.

Hi GreekItalianman,Your car sounds real nice. Sorry to hear of the rust issues. If your garage floor is sweating that much moisture, it sounds like the person who poured the garage floor may not have installed a moisture barrier in the floor when it was built. You might try sealing the floor with something like Thompson's water seal, then coating the floor with an epoxy coating. That may slow down the moisture evaporating from the floor. You might also section the garage into compartments, and install a dehumidifier in the sectioned space where you store the car to remove moisture from the air in the garage. As for the car, I have successfully slowed surface rust on the under side of vehicles by cleaning off the loose rust, coating the area with a rust inhibiting primer, then painting the surface with black rust inhibiting paint. As for areas where the rust is severe, replacement of the damaged part may be the only option. My car is stored inside of an enclosed climate controlled race car trailer. The trailer has an RV air-conditioner with heat strips. I keep the trailer at 80 F during the summer, and 50F during the winter. The underside looks like it did in 1986. The original owner kept the car in her climate controlled finished basement which had a collection of 8 classic cars stored alongside of the TA. The only time the car is exposed to humidity is when it is driven, and brief periods when it is in for repairs, or at shows. I have managed to keep my winter truck from rusting out by raising the vehicle up every season, removing all of the loose rust, pressure washing the bottom, coating it with a rust inhibiting primer and top coating with rust inhibiting paint. The truck is ten years old and so far is very solid. Since it is constantly exposed to road salt the truck will eventually rust out, however I am extending the life span as long as possible. Hopefully you can preserve your car. It sounds like a real treasure, 12K miles, one owner, nicely optioned. Rust is a hard one to fight, but it sounds like it is well worth fighting for in your case.

You should take the car to 1000 point shows and see that it's nothing more than a 100 point show x10! Those of us that know these cars and know what a true 1000 point show should be are disappointed in 1000 point judging. I don't believe any car that gets driven can be greater than 950 or even 900, but I have seen cars get scores of 998 that have 60k miles and are driven. They are very clean and detailed, but every stone chip, scratch, dirt or anything should be a deduction.

My high is a 996. If I judged it to true 1000 point standards, my car shouldn't get over 925-950 with the number of minor flaws that all add up! I think I will take an old judging sheet and rejudge my car and report the score later.

Yeah, what he said. Cool at the time, not so much so when it's non-operable. This audio system was the determining factor when I purchased my red GTA new.

There is a company we have found that can repair the original speakers; one of the members over on the GTASP forums found the information.

I just bought an 87 Formula with a working Subwoofer system, the rear speakers foam was completely shot, so I bought some 5" kickers and installed them... It actually sounds pretty good.

As for the 1986 cars, my friend ( I know 2nd hand info sux ) has owned his 86 T/A since new. He has the original dealer order stuff and it has written on it "GTA" Although his car is a Trans Am, it has the PE0 Wheels. His car is an early 1986, as his speedo actually does not have the KM/H on it, just MPH.

The PW7 Wheels were available in 1986 (first Year), they were w/o the dimples (obviously) and I want to think they were available in Gold and Charcoal. In 1987 The T/A could also be had with the PW7 Charcoal rims, but not the Gold rims (As Frankie and others noted), As the Gold wheels were reserved for the GTA only. In 1988 the TA could be bought with the PW7 Wheels which were available in Red, White, Silver, Charcoal, etc, it was not until 1991 with the advent of the Convertible, when the T/A was once again available with the Gold PW7 Rims.

As for the Wheels, here is what I found. From the Dealer Order Worksheet: "WS6 > Special Performance Package" - "Opt Trans Am only - Inc. P245 QDZ Tires and 4 Wheel Disc Brakes J65 Inc. Color Coordinated 16" Hi-Tech Turbo Wheels N96 Exc. W/LB9 Engine, w/AC. C60 w/Hatch Roof CC1 - Inc. Color Coordinated 16" Diamond Spoke Lightweight Aluminum Wheels PW7 w/LB9 Engine w/A.C. C60 w/Hatch Roof CC1."

So if you wanted a WS6 A.C/CC1 with WS6 you got the PW7 Wheels in 1986. However my friend does have the N96 Wheels on his AC/CC1/WS6 1986 Trans Am, so it had to have been a mid year change. Other interesting Factoids, the Stowage Cover (The plastic hinged cover) was NA on the WS6 cars, neither was the Cargo Security screen available with the LB9/CC1/C60 car in 1986 Again, probably a mid-year change.

I hope that helps...

John

Yeah,i completely understand your sentiments. I thought i would give it a shot though. I might do what you did and back all the original stuff away. You can see in this pic of how my rims and the car looks. I also have some minor wear and tear from 24yr of life(and idiot neighbors walking on the garage roof(Damaged both my front quarter panels from the roof falling on it) http://s851.photobucket.com/albums/a...t=DSC09160.jpg You gotta show me a pic of yours would love to see a mint car all stock.

So if you wanted a WS6 A.C/CC1 with WS6 you got the PW7 Wheels in 1986. However my friend does have the N96 Wheels on his AC/CC1/WS6 1986 Trans Am, so it had to have been a mid year change. Other interesting Factoids, the Stowage Cover (The plastic hinged cover) was NA on the WS6 cars, neither was the Cargo Security screen available with the LB9/CC1/C60 car in 1986 Again, probably a mid-year change.

I hope that helps...

John[/quote]

When my father ordered the car they said they wouldn't give him the security screen because of the weight limitations put on by the feds for safety feature reasons back in 86. Now pretty much there is no weight limitation(Suvs and huge trucks out there)

SUV's and Trucks are in a different Fuel economy rating...

Keep in mind that this was similar to 1987 as well... You could not get a GTA or Trans Am with a L98 (350) with the Subwoofer, T-tops, nor the rear shade for the same exact reason. However you could get a Formula 350 with the subwoofer and the Shade, but not T-tops with the 350. Even some of the LB9/A4 Firebirds cars had some limits in 1987... I forget what they were, but it was interesting, I think something like The formula could not be had with the LB9/A4/CC1 and J65 (4 wheel disc brakes) I would have to look it up. I honestly think that is also why The Firebird never got the BOSE system either, it added too much weight with the combination of other options it was not practical. Also why They did not offer a Firebird convertible until 1991. Weight, Weight Weight... it makes more sense than any other plausible explanation when you start looking at restrictions of options on the Firebirds, and how typically it came down to the weight of the car when you could not get some option.

That's really a shame though. My dad got the bose system instead of the shade. They shouldn't have limited it. They restricted so many options and in turn i believe that it disappointed many people,and now that there is practically no weight restrictions we can't find the oem parts to put in the cars we own. It's not like we're a large force either. It's very rare that you see a third gen on the street now-a-days. Our cars are greatly underrated. But, i've noticed a muscle car movement beginning to form. It's like ford,chevorlet,and dodge started this whole rebellion by remaking their all new 5th gens.

Of course there are cars that broke the rules (ie Canadian cars), such as this 1987 GTA with factory T-Tops, factory 350, factory UQ7 subwoofer and factory cargo screen that's on the SPID:
http://volsungsteelfab.com/GTA.html

One thing I never understood about the above car, which has been on the market for a while, is why it has a US digital cluster when the Canadian cars received the metric digital dash (as indicated by difference between oil pressure and temperature markings on the face plate).

Car is in good condition,and it has all the features. 10,000 is fairly cheap. The dodge dealer by me offered 12,000 for my 86 without even looking at it. I heard stories that people would order from Canadian factories while being US citizens and beat the weight limitations that the feds put on. Then bring the car back to US.I guess this is one theory.

I should note that this car was also on eBay and just sold (today) for 9K:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ponti...fCarsQ5fTrucks

Car is definately a bit unusual with the paddle mirrors and being virtually loaded; especially options that were generally not available when combined.

T-Tops and 350 TPI on a GTA?
Uhh, thats new.

The link with the SPID sheet was posted:
http://volsungsteelfab.com/GTA.html

The direct picture is here:
http://volsungsteelfab.com/images/DSCF2787.JPG

It does have Y84 (GTA), L98 (350) and CC1 (factory T-Tops) UQ7 (sub woofer option)

There are a few that are known to exist. It's because they are Canadian exports (Z49).

What I noticed (in my nit-picky way) The hood insulator appears to be for a Formula...

John

Here are some recent shots of "Amanda" the 86WS6. She has 29K actual miles, and is an original unrestored, unmodified, car in as delivered condition. These pictures were taken by a professional photographer <US129photo> on the Tail of the Dragon, US Highway 129 in eastern Tennessee on 11/13/2010. The car has had two owners. The original owner passed away in 2003. She was a friend and I was familier with the car and it's history from when she bought it brand new in 1986 from Harry's Pontiac in Asheville, NC. I purchased the car from her estate. I have all of the paperwork and reciepts for everthing that has ever been done to the car.

Yeah,i noticed that too. Hope it's not a "Frankenstein" car. That would bring the value way way down.

Had to double post this one. 86W6 beautiful car. In immaculate condition. Great work keeping her pristine. Also, amazing photography workmanship. Not a flaw in your paint job or any weird parts plastered on there.

Thanks for the compliments. Often when I try to describe the car to others who have not seen it, I get this (Yeah, Right!!!) response. As they say a picture is worth a 1000 words.

The photos actually make the paint look more flawless then it is. The car has been around for 25 years, and has been driven 29K miles, so it has a few chips and scratches. The blue part was redone many years ago, as the OEM clear coat turned yellow. The silver decals and the bird are exact reproductions, that I installed myself. The silver paint is the original paint. The car has been refered to as a a good 10 footer.

It is about as OEM as one can be and having still been driven some. There are a couple of small items that are not exact. The silver wheel caps are from a Formula. I have the OEM black ones, but like the looks of the silver caps better. It currently has a Wally-World battery, because I have not been able to locate the exact Delco for the car. The Gatorbacks are gone, because one on them rotted through and blew out the side wall. I have a remote 12 disc CD changer hidden in the rear storage box, feeding to the OEM Performance Sound system via one of those FM modulators. That was the only way I could think of to update our listening options without modifying the OEM stereo. The OEM PW7 wheels, which have the black centers also, have some issues with the clear coat, and the wheels that are on it now are new old stock from GM, not reproductions. The only difference between them and the original wheels are the dimples. The interior matches the exterior for being clean, OEM and intact.

You give me inspiration to eventually get my girl to original working condition. Rust is a major issue on my girl. Garage kept but the moisture got to her. Also, i was having a convo with my dad and he said when he first picked the car up, it had problems and it had to be sent to the pontiac factory(not dealer) to be diagnosed. They said it was because they accidentally put a gta ecm in the car which wasn't compatible with the 305. But,even so now it still has the same back fire it had when he first bought the car. I have a stage 2 chip ready to install, do you think it will screw up the ecm?

Maybe some of the others here will chime in about ECM's and chips. I have no clue. I do know that back in the 80's GM had some serious quality control issues, and bolted a lot of incorrect parts on these cars. I bought a new 83 WS7 in fall 82, and later it was recalled because the workers at the factory were installing radiators randomly. Mine had a V-6 radiator in it. It ran hot from day one. The dealer rigged a resistor into the temp sending circuit, making the temp guage read lower then the car was acutally running. The engine cooked at 3100 miles, and GM put a new one in the car under warrenty. They did not find the radiator issue, and the new engine also ran hot. While the second engine was being installed, I got a letter from Pontiac for the recall. When the car was back together, I signed the papers, and drove the car to another dealer and traded it that day. What a POS!

Later that year I bought another 83 New. I kept it for 20 years. It was a good car execpt that the factory dropped a flash light in the passenger side door while the car was being assembled. When the window was rolled down, it broke the flash light, and the battery acid rusted the bottom of the door out. Pontiac refused to replace the door. I paid to have the door replaced, and painted to match. So nothing surprises me about production cars from the 80's.

Good luck on your restoration.

Oh,ahaha. I had no idea GM, and pontiac were so disorganized. Thanks,I will do my best. Hopefully have my car in the condition yours is in. Would love to see more pics and perhaps if you're doing the Bandit run in 2011, see you there.(Yes, i know it's a long shot since thousand trans ams go there) Good luck with the preservation. Muscle cars are coming back baby.

86WS6,
that car is beautiful. I think i just drooled all over my keyboard.....

86ws6,

It appears you and I have pretty close twins Take your car, give it a hardtop and 15" Turbo wheels, and that's my car! Mine needs a paint job (guess your's was done a long time ago?) and an A/C compressor...otherwise, all I need to do is replace the steering wheel and its perfect.

I love the color combo...any more pics of the black wheels? I've been debating about replacing my 15s with either black or charcoal 16s. Any extra pics of that, and your hoodbird (mine doesn't have one, but I'm thinking of adding one when it gets repainted) would be appreciated!

BTW, mine's got only 2,000 miles on it Beautiful car you have there!

Thanks. She was a lucky find. My time is limited and abilities are not skilled enough to do a complete resto of basket case car. Finances won't allow the bottom-less pit costs of a perpetual project car. Through shear circumbstance I got a chance to own this car, and all it needs is routine maintenance to keep her in prime condition. That fits in with my life perfectly. I continualy wrestle with the prospect of the car possably getting damaged because I drive it some, about 400 miles a year. I have considered taking her off of the road, making her a permanent trailer queen. Keep her insured, but not licensed. I am also of the thought that these cars are made to drive and enjoy, not just to look at and admire. So, I only take her out on sunny warm days in light traffic, and hope for the best.

Hang in there. You will get like you want it.

I will try to get you some pics of the wheels.

The hood bird is a repoduction from <www.phoenixgraphix.com>