Drew

iTrader: (58)

Hey I'm not saying that complaining to our public representitives would really help... I'm just saying that it couldn't hurt. So many people sit back and let things slide instead of standing up for what is right. It's sickening, but it's not just the government that takes advantage it's 90% of the general population. No one is held responsible for anything anymore. The answer isn't to just simply ignore it, and hope it gets better.

C4C is a load of crap, but the government is "buying" these cars for more then most people could sell them to someone who would want them. Complaining about the program after the fact isn't going to help anything. If everyone is really upset about this maybe they should put the negative energy into a positive effort.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

A 1986 1LE doesn't exist... the 1LE package wasn't available until 1988.

86WS6

iTrader: (1)

What we need is a rebate to get people to turn in poor quality imports. Trade your import for an American Made vehicle, and get a nice government sponsored credit. It will do a couple of positive things, one is get the US companies going again, and two get all of the ugly imports off our our roads. Having to look at those things is nauseating. The Prius looks like an overgrown rat without a tail.

Someone trading a Prius for a 2010 Z-28, and watching the Chevy dealer crush the Prius would be a show that I would pay to watch.

The cash for clunkers program should require that the car be salvaged, and the parts are resold. The Toyota dealers should not be allowed to crush them just for show. It's a complete waste of good parts, and Anti-Green on Toyota's part.

That's what we need to do, is campain against Toyota for not recycling.
Do it in honor of the poor lost IROC.

Schwinny

Ive never heard a truer statement.

Guest

Been that way a long time.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...54-post31.html

Those bills refer to the earliest versions of the permanent vehicle scrappage program. After more searching and release of bill text, it was based on the "new" EPA ratings. They simply copied the fine print for this 'temporary' program. And as far as I know, the combined rating has been that way over a year since they 'revised' the fuel mileage numbers. I looked over a year ago thats what it said, and when I searched this in Feb thats what it said. I dont think they revised a thing, I think you must have been listening to someone else and they lied to you.

This is absolutely win win win win for the government. Sales taxes, plates, insurance, and best of all... new car sales for at least two of the manufacturers they own PLUS keeping people at work so they can collect those income taxes! Sorry for diverging into that but there is no downside to those who we need to convince otherwise.... and ABSOLUTELY, COMPLAIN! This is supposed to end in November, there is no difficulty involved in them extending this indefinitely.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Here's how I bought my last IROC:



It's an 86 IROC that ran good, had no ground FX, Smelled like death inside ( from the mice ) and was 6 different colors. Just about anyone that owns a car like this WOULD trade it in if they were getting a $4500 credit for it; leading to one less IROC on the road.

I rebuild these cars - and only these cars - and resell them when the restoration is complete to other gear heads. The Cash for Clunker programs are another way the gear-head way of life is under attack. ( Maybe not it's intended purpose, but a very obvious side effect. ) How many good thirdGen restoration cadidates are going to be left at the end of this program ? Not many guys will re-build a V6 car; & I know PLENTY of guys that re-build cars ! I've heard that the motor is to be run till seized and that the VIN gets entered into a data base so the car can never be registered again. Great for V6 guys that need spare parts - but that IROC ( or GTA, or what-ever ) is dead forever and can never be reborn ( restored ) by some gear-head and his kid that find it in the back of some boneyard on a Saturday afternoon. Cash for Clunkers is killing more cars than even the $280 a ton price that 'Light Iron' scrap metal was fetching during the Spring of 08. ( I can't even count you how many 'solid' ThirdGens I saw getting flatened and stacked on the trucks for scrap last season ! )

If I didn't buy my 86 IROC when I did, I would not have been able to bring it back from the brink because it would have been traded in and treated as a "Clunker" without a doubt !!! I don't know about you folks - but I'd ratehr throw a couple G's into restoring a car that has a computer that can be diagnosed with a paper clip rather than Spend thousands and thousands on a New car that is packed full of "Dealer Only" replacements parts and a computer that will shut the whole dam car down if the thermostat doesn't open in "the recomeneded amount of time" ! Sure; Crushing similar cars will give a slight bump to the value of my "good" ThirdGens ( on paper ),.... But it comes at the expense of killing my way of life.




I've said it before; We are the last of a dying breed guys - Live it up while you can !

Aussie Muscle

'Green' is the new bling. in the fifties to show you were well off you bought a huge car with lots of chrome. these days it's a prius. same smug, different color.

C.M.Jones

you all have good points, and I agree with most of you. ESPECIALLY seeing a prius getting crushed!!!! but something I don't get about this program is the car you trade in has to pass emissions???? WTF? (am I aloud to say WTF?) if it passed emissions its not a clunker!!!

there is obviously an ulterier motive here. if the US wanted "clunkers" out of the pictures give all of us new V8s (V6s for you wierdos, lol). problem solved.

there are so may plot holes in the system, like why NOT older vehcles? just about 25 years ago was about the time they started capping the cars for MPGs and emissions

Fords88Bird

All my cars are paid for, my newest is the 88 Bird oldest is a 65 Benz, so why the he ll would I get myself in debt with an extra payment of $300.-$400. a month. Stimulating the economy is one thing but we'll see how many of those will be turned back to the dealers in a year cause they're over their heads. Later.

Azrael91966669

the government changed the fuel rateing on all older cars to allow them to traded in

so yes cars that shouldnt have been accepted are now allowed

all cars must have the engines ruined before being scraped

almost all the scrap yards dont like the program as the engines are the most valuble component to them

arrowcamaro

iTrader: (2)

Lest get a few facts out there.

The Govt gave everyone a tool (C4C) to get out of and old car and into something newer, with better gas mileage, runs cleaner out the tailpipe, and is more reliable. The people that own the "clunkers" are responsible for crushing their car as its their decision and their car do what ever they please. The Govt has yet to go to someone's house and tow anyone's car to the crusher. The owners of the "clunkers" are making the decision to crush the car, not the Govt.

This program is about boosting the economy and cleaning the air. Comparing a monthly cost of ownership between a thirdgen and a new car is silly. Thats great that the 3rd gen is cheaper monthly to own then a new car, really, but it has no bearing whatsoever on anything to do with C4C.

The C4C program is not geared toward buying an import. Its geared toward buying a more efficient vehicle. If the people that take part in the program buy an import, thats their choice. All of the domestic automakers have efficient vehicles to sell just like the imports. Its the peoples choice.

Lets not blame the Govt. Lets not blame the dealerships. Blame the people taking part in the program. Nobody had a gun to their head, and they make a conscious decision.

One last thing: Dont mistake mileage for emissions. As the years have gone on the emissions standards have become more stringent. A new car may get the same mileage that your thirdgen gets. That new car while getting the same mileage as yours, puts out far less polution then our old 3rd gens.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I really doubt this c4c is gonna change much. Most of the 3gn owners wouldn't trade in there's for a "brand new" smart car or something. I know my camaros will be worth more in a few years than the new bs the auto manufactures are coming out with...

ls six

Lots of whining in this thread, not so much political activity

arrowcamaro

iTrader: (2)

Thats the thing, people arent limited to a "smart car" or something like it. Go look up a new cobalt SS. It clicks off 14.1's in the 1/4, handles every bit as good as an IROC, and is affordable. The program is not limited to economy cars.

Azrael91966669

the camaro now QUALIFYS as they have LOWERED the fuel rateings on some older cars

it says my 91 Rs has 18 combined

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

WORRY NOT - the feds have not actually paid out any money - the dealers are standing there waiting - BUT HERE IS THE RUB

THE PROGRAM IS ALREADY OUT OF MONEY AND DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH TO PAY FOR THE VEHICLES ALREADY IN THE PIPELINE!

program now bankrupt and dealers all over US are not using it until they see the money in the pipeline.

okfoz

I should point out that the C4C program is intended to work like this.
1) You trade in your car and get either 4500 or 3500 for a new more efficient car
2) The Dealership also apparently reimburses the owner the scrap metal amount.
3) They disable the engine by seizing up the cylinders and removing the oil.
4) they separate the Transmission from drive-shaft (both which may be sold)
5) The car goes to a scrap yard apparently for ONLY 6 months for parts and then it is to be crushed.
6) The now cubed scrap iron goes to Pueblo Colorado where it is packaged up and sent to China.

Some things to note:
1) I doubt you can recover a car from a salvage yard as it would have a "Scrap" title. Once it gets one of those it can no longer be legally driven on the road.
2) I do not think the dealership can sell any parts off of the car, I suspect it has to go to to a salvage yard for that.
3) I do not think there is anything in the Law that states that parts cannot be given away. I would see if I could snag the TPI setup personally...

John

L695speed

I've got one too, but it needs to be registered and insured for a year prior to trading it in, so its going to the scrap yard for a measly 500 dollar max value. Also I agree with what others have said that its cheaper to keep older cars running, cleaner too, than to buy a new one. The fact that it has to pass emissions is absurd. I'm keeping mine, and eventually it will be back in show room condition. I've got Historic plates on it...take that C4C, its 25, and gets 18 too bad I think when done I could get more for it, also its just too much fun to drive I don't think a smart car will do what this thing does.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

They might handle nice, run quickly etc, but they don't have the style a nicely kept, or restored iroc has. Even the new 5th gens don't have the look imho..

sccavette

I have been looking into this program to buy a new car. I have changed job location and now have a hour drive to and from work and looking for a new reliable fuel friendly car to make the daily drive.

I have been looking at getting a Cobalt SS, Subi WRX and a couple others. My 91 Trans Am qualifies for the money witch is more than the car is worth on private market and a lot more than I have in it (paid 1K, 1200 in paint and fixing it up) $2200. I also will remove the lace wheels and the ram air hood replacing them with junk ones if I decide to do the trade and sell them seperate. I have been watching the market on 3rd gens and right now I would be lucky to be able to get over 3K for the car in a private sale.

I was going to sell the TA after I bought a new car because I will not need it as a driver anymore and have too many vehicles to keep in. DO I sell it for 3K or use this program and get another 1500 out of it?

sccavette

This comment is not 100% correct. Most of the foreign owned cars that are based in the US are made with more american made parts than the a majority of the GM car line. The best fuel mileage car GM offers is not american at all, it is made in Korea. Most of the foreign car companies (toyota truck in San Antonio for example) have a campus where the plant is and a large majority of the parts supplied for the vehicle are built on the campus sequenced and delivered to the plant. You would be suprised at how little foreign parts actually go into a foreign car built in the US.

Import cars have not created a "large part of this companies problems". If it were not for the foreign cars we would not see the quality of cars coming from the big 3 that we do today. The foreign car market has forced the big 3 to produce better quality cars.

okfoz

Here is an argument to your Foreign car argument. Fine GM, Ford and Chrysler make cars that use parts from Foreign countries. In some cases Japanese cars may even have more parts made in the US than a similar counterpart "US" Model.

Here is the REAL problem, when you purchase a car in the end the money you spent goes to those who made it, For example, The fact that GM, Ford and Chrysler have their HQ in Detroit, means that the majority of money goes to the UNITED STATES. When you purchase a Toyota, Honda etc, the majority of the money goes to JAPAN, When you purchase a BMW, VW, etc the money goes to Germany.

Granted you pay for those people that made the parts or assembled the car, wherever it was made, but the truth is much of money goes back to its native land, and is spent on CEO's Advertising, Power consumption, Taxes etc...

It sounds all noble that we can purchase a Toyota and say it was technically made here in the US. The problem is our GNP does not change due to it. So in effect you hurt our economy more than if you would have bought a US Mfg'd car.

John

80schild

iTrader: (5)

As long as you remember that you, me, and everybody else that pays taxes is paying for this. Everytime someone gets $4500 for a "clunker" it comes out of all of our pockets. Frankly I don't see why my tax dollars should partially pay for someone elses new car.

campin1983

iTrader: (4)

I always hate to see the foreign vs domestic argument come up when it comes to buying a car. Yes, the GDP is affected best when we buy American. On the other hand, we are likely paying the wages of more Americans if we buy a Tundra over an Aveo.

What I hate about this argument, is that it entirely ignores common sense. I am not going to buy a car, simply because it was made in a certain place. Especially if I'm spending $20,000 or more, I am not going to have blind loyalty to any company. I'm going to buy the best car for me, regardless of whose label is on it.

I'm neither a blind supporter of American cars or Japanese cars, and the decisions I've made for me and my family have gone both ways. It is on the American automakers to supply us with cars that are worth buying. Unfortunately in recent history, that hasn't always been their focus.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

You won't get ANY money from C4C for a WRX . They have to get a ETA rated 22 mpg or more. The WRX gets 21. You could get 3500 for the Colbalt because it gets between 4 and 10 mpg better then the Trans Am.

Would you really rather see your Trans Am junked for maybe 500 bucks? A 91 Trans Am, imho, is worth more then 3500 bucks on the retail market with new paint on it.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

i have written this before. THERE IS NO MONEY!
they gave a billion dollar budget for this. that means about 225,000 cars. most of the dealers got 20-30 people the first day.
so far the feds have not given one penny to the dealers but the dealers sold the car for the discounted price.
that means no money is left and any dealer that gives that 4500 now stands a chance of taking a 4500 hit - they cant get the money back from the buyer, the gov will not give them money and the cars have been destroyed.

it has been all over the news today - dealers are saying no because there is no money yet and they are making an interest free loan to the givernment.

and the epa people keep changing the mileage for each car - which means the dealers are taking another hit because the old rates gave them more money and the new rates give them less money.

this program is dead if the feds dont fund it again.

CharcoalBird

iTrader: (4)

I had a big reply typed up and then the power went out. Neighbor is having a tree cut down and they killed the power. I love how neighbors never give you a warning before doing something like that. Going to have to talk about that.
Anyway, sccavette, you took the words right out of my mouth. It does help having foreign here because they build and use american made parts, but in the end, the big chunk of profit goes back to the companies origin.
Also, you can't make things better by not doing anything at all. It will take some spending to try and get things going. The gov. is just throwing the money out, rather than spending wisely and thinking things through.

sccavette

I agree the WRX does not qualify for the rebate, These were the cars that I was looking at buying and some do qualiy that I have looked into and some do not. I am not 100% only going to trade ONLY IF I can get the clunker money it is just one path to go. You are also correct that the SS (turbo) version does not qualift for the full $4500 however $3500 plus the $200 scrap price for the car Plus $200 for selling the hood and maybe another $200 for the lace wheels with tires ($4100 total). This is about $1100 more than the car is really worth. I would be getting rid of the car eiher way if I buy a new one, why would I not take the best deal?

JamesLLeary

There needs to be a big time boost in wages first!

sccavette

This program is no beter than the GOV just handing over billions to the car companies and them still filing BR or the 8K home buyers credit. These money spending programs will make little if any impact on the large problem.

okfoz

Of the 300,000,000 people in the US, about half of them actually pay taxes, Therefore 150,000,000 are paying for this. Because some of those pay more and others less the average contribution of those 150 Mil people is approximately $6.67 per tax payer. It does not sound too bad... In comparison we have Trillions of dollars of debt and your share is $36,000 ish for every man woman and child.

My point is more or less we are so far in debt as a country that an extra $6.67 per taxpayer does not seem to be that big of a deal. Unfortunately our Big-Overinflated-Bloated bill-passing government lawmakers keep heaping more and more on that debt because they do not see it as a big deal any more. A Billion here, a billion there, We spend hundreds of millions on Native wild horses that could have been spent on someone that really needs it. Instead of trying to save some money they do everything to spend on useless programs that ultimately only cost us more money. Still $6.67 is not that big of a deal... But wait maybe it is...

If we speak up, and talk to our Congressperson in person when they come home and do "Town hall meetings" for their August break, tell them that you are dissatisfied with their actions. Tell them that you are against such things as this wasteful C4C deal. Tell them that you will not continue to support and elect them if they continue this waste. If you as a citizen of the USA choose not to do this then nothing will ever change. The fact that we can write our congressperson and they actually never read our letters, we can make a call and only get an aid or some other underpaid person that has no control, ( I wonder if they actually tell their congressmen about the calls. ) It is obvious that they do not care about us or the people that actually elect them because they do not have time. I would be willing to bet that hardly any of our congressmen/women actually read the bill for C4C, let alone the huge 1000+ page bills that are coming down the pike. Stand up in non-violent force...

What we are becoming is something that no one wants. The C4C program appears to be an attempt to boost our economy. But let us honestly step back and look at it for what it is.

1) The US lawmakers have decided that giving money to people that own "clunkers" for a more efficient vehicle seems like a good idea.
2) The TRUTH is about half of the people in the US actually pay taxes, I covered that before.
3) A large part of the people that drive cars that are in this "clunker" category are probably in that half of people that do not pay income taxes.

So more or less we are taking money from people that pay taxes and more or less giving it to those who do not pay taxes, it is almost, I say Almost, an entitlement program. Karl Marx used as a slogan "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" Which more or less is take from those who do and give to those who have a need.

Unfortunately what they are going to hurt are those people that decided to buy a new car when they could not afford it in the first place. Most people do not realize that it is so much more less expensive to keep an old car going than to buy a new one, almost no matter what condition it is in. If you take ANY third gen, and invest $400 a month into it, what kind of car would you have at the end. at the end of one year, you could have a new paint job $4800, or at the end of a year you could re do your interior $1200, buy a crate engine $2400, and rebuild your transmission $1200. So more or less within two years of car payments you could completely redo your car and make it like new!!! Most people do not do this because they say it is expensive... or is it really? You should have lower Insurance premiums on a third gen as you do not need full coverage on them. However you have to have FULL COVERAGE on a new car that you are taking out a loan on. You May save some money on Gas, but in reality the difference is not that significant, maybe $500 or in an extreme case $1000 a year. You do not have to pay interest to a bank with your current ride, And technically you do not own the New car until it is paid off anyway. I will be interested to see how many people default on their new car payment and have the car repossessed ultimately they will HAVE NO CAR.

If everyone did this program in the US and turned in their clunker, there would no longer be inexpensive cars for those people that cannot afford a more expensive car. Forcing them to possibly take public transportation More or less they are inflating the price of old cars, artificially, but ultimately it will come to pass.

Ultimately I look at this as a Socialistic program. That is why I am against it. I believe in Free Enterprise, and the capitalistic Republic government our constitution and FORE FATHERS gave us...

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

You gave example of what cars you where looking at, so that is all I had to go on. Since you gave examples of cars that don't qualify I would guess you didn't look at all into the program before you posted that message. Yes, some may, some may not qualify. If you are getting anything sporty you aren't getting the full 4500, just 3500. Honestly I don't know about Thirdgen prices in your area, but fresh paint on a 91 Trans Am in descent condition would fetch 4k in my area, imho. If it just money to you, scrap the car. For me it isn't worth a few hundred bucks to see my car scrapped, never to be driven again. I'd rather sell it to someone who will at least enjoy the car. However, that is just me and I am passionate about Thirdgen, obviously not everyone shares that opinion.

Chris Etemadi

That is sad. This program is likely to fail. Fraud artists will have a hay-day with this stuff. I work at a GM dealership where we have gotten 5 cars in so far.
The instructions are to drain the oil and fill it with 1 gallon of Silicon Silicate (liquid glass), and run the engine until failure. We have done this to 3 so far. A late 90's 5.9l Durango with less than 75k miles (what a waste), a beater chevy lumina and a 4 cyl. Wrangler. Its fun se watch them pop however, its sad to think that we are paying money for these cars so the metal can be recycled and sold to China for pennies on the dollar.

kkingsrulee

Listen, as Americans (I'm speaking from a factual standpoint) we have to pay taxes, that's all there is to it. But we have little control over what we spend these tax dollars on. That is why we elect our legislators to do the spending of our tax dollars, and it is their responsibility to carry out the needs and desires of their own respective constituents. But it takes A LOT to get noticed by your congressman or senator. There is not much that one person can do, it takes many many people to write to their legislator in order for he or she to try to do anything about it. And lets say they do get the message from their constituents through, what then? Congratulations you've convinced one congressman from your district in your state. Who's saying the other constituents in the other districts of your state have a problem with the legislation that you do? It would be a never-ending battle.

The point I'm trying to make here is that we have to pay taxes, regardless, if we legally make enough to pay either income taxes or have our wages taxed, we must pay. But we have little to no power over where our money is spent, and hell, I don't care, I trust them with my money, they're far more qualified than any of us at doing their job. We've done in 343 years what other countries have taken centuries to build and organize.

krisb410

iTrader: (9)

Why would you just give up $1500 dollars????

sccavette

Like I said these were cars that I have been looking at buying along with others. I will buy the car that I like (want) first and the clunker program will be a second factor along with what rebates are offered on different models but not the total reason I buy the car I buy. I have looked into the program very close as far as seeing what the scrap price for the car is (you get this on top of the program money) so I know the exact numbers will be getting if I do decide to trade it in. I have also talked to the 2 dealers that I buy from and both of them are willing to do a deal if I buy a vehicle from them. Don't get me wrong I really do like the TA and it is decent transportation for what I have in it and is a very sporty good looking car however it all comes down to money. The same goes for the Corvettes, if the would offer 10K trade in for one of my older vettes towards a new C6 I would be all over it and atleast 1 would be GONE with a new one in its place.

Yes I would rather see it go to a good home and if somebody wanted it bad enough to pay me what they are going to give me for it then I would do that first however I do not see that happening.

sccavette

That is the point I was rying to make. Some were all up in arms a why people are trading in some 3rd gens for his program and this IS the reason why, the car is worth more in this program than it is on the private market.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

fear not chris and kkings - the program is now dead.
from the ap - http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

its all gone and over now.

we are safe.

EROC88

our whole idiot government is retarded! the whole world has gone insane over green and i am furious to hear they are smashing ANY of these cars! i'm going to make sure i pump as much "harmful emissions" out of my car as possible to make up for this injustice.

Ok, the language is out of line and I already warned against it. I edited this post for language. Thanks for reading my earlier post!!!

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Not trying to be rude by answering with a one liner, but I totally agree!

sccavette

OHHHH suspended does not indicate it is gone for ever. I am sure our great leader will be on TV in a week after he prints some more cash to extend the program since it was so popular.

Looks like I waited too long to trade cars!

HarmonyCamaro

im glad i bought a 83...

scottmoyer

People are getting too heated about this and not obeying the site rules. Also, Cash 4 Clunkers is done, now so is this thread!

okfoz

No one said anything about not paying taxes. I have no problem paying my fair share. I hate the fact that our government has brought us to the brink of bankruptcy, I hate the fact that my Children and my Children's Children will have to pay this all back. I just want some responsibility, and not foolish spending on C4C deals that are more of a problem than they are worth... From what I can tell the C4C deal has failed BECAUSE it is a Government plan, the Government cannot do anything as efficiently as the private sector. No matter how hard they try to convince us, government bureaucracy will get in the way.