ok so lately ever since i told my friends im saving up for a 3rd gen camaro, they have been saying that all of them are red neck cars. and also i see a lot of jokes on the internet relating them to "red neck cars" too. do any of you know why people think that? i mean they arent red neckish in any way i think. they are American Muscle and good cars. i dont see how theyre red neck in any way.

It has a lot to do with the people who own them... These are affordable performance cars, so they attract young people, and people with little money. Most can't leave well enough alone, and they don't take the time, spend the money, or have the capability, to do a modification right. So you end up with a legion of hacked up crap-wagons with aftermarket hoods, spoilers, and a 2" crush bent dual exhaust that drags over speed bumps.

Yep, that just about sums it up. But the other side is that these cars were the coolest thing out in the mid to late eighties and were what every teenager wanted. Now those teenagers are around 40 and have the desire and extra money to relive their high school years in one of these cars. That said, I really do believe that these cars are as cheap as they will ever be right now. When this economy comes back, I think these cars will start to creep up in value and not look back.

Jason

You ask why the stigma? Go to the Appearance board on this forum and you will still see it happening. Not only the 30-40 year old crowd is looking at buying these cars. There are 15 and 16 year olds looking at buying them for a first car, with no money to repair the car. A 20+ year old car will need repairs and if people with no money buy them, they get hacked together. It's amazing the number of posts on this forum regarding the Maaco paint jobs or backyard paintjobs with a rattle can of Rustoleum. I have even seen weatherstripping replaced with the strip weatherstripping you buy at Ace hardware or Home Depot.

You will not get that stigma if you restore the car or do a resto mod in the correct fashion. Use quality parts and quality paint, replace things that need it instead of just disabling it, etc.

When I tell people I have an '89 Camaro, they usually say . . . "Uhhhhhhh" and "Why?".
When the same people see my '89 Camaro, they always say . . . "Wow!!!" and "I had no idea they could look like that!".
Most of the haters turn into wanters.

Assignment . . . Next time anyone criticizes your ride, ask them what they drive?
More often than not it's a real piece of crap or gutless or an econobox, etc, etc.
Quite often those who think they know about cars, don't actually walk the walk. Or is that drive the drive.

Hey thanks guys for the good answers... And also my friend is gettin a vw golf gti and praises that car and once said that it clould easily beat a iroc with a 350 in a quarter mile drag lol.. (that wont happen)

Thirdgen.org used to be free of the stigma, but now it's crawling with idiots.

People have been saying these cars have hit rock bottom since the late 90's. There's always the rumor that things are turning around, but it hasn't happened yet and realistically it might not happen at all.

As long as they keep their value over a Honda! HA!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure that making the assumption that 3rd gens will go up in value one day like every other American performance car has in the past makes me an idiot though....

Sorry I was working with two different ideas and should have spaced them as seperate paragraphs.

I've said the same thing many times, it's not an idiotic statement. But it's not a sure thing either. These cars should have bottomed out a few years ago, and should already be bouncing back. But that trend hasn't been seen... yet.

I agree, it has been slow, but I have friends that have white collar jobs asking me to help them find an IROC or Trans Am like they had in high school. When I tell them you can find a NICE car for under $7K they cant believe it.

Nope. Ive raced a Golf GTI in the quarter mile and my IROC won buy a few car lengths--it really wasnt that close (its called V8 torque and a 5.7 has gobs of it down low) and I backed off at the end. Ive also raced a $40k 2008 Lexus IS250 AWD that a buddy of mine thought would smoke my IROC. Nope! My friend raced me 3 times that night because he just couldnt believe the outcome.
Your friend is just like alot of people who think anything "new" can beat an older Camaro...Its just not the case.

I so agree with this post. There are alot of teenagers who buy a $1k camaro and then cant afford a new paint job, or new carpet or a new dash so they come up with something cheap and most of the time it just doesnt work (makes for good reading though!!). Eventually we will get to the point that these cars have appreciated to the point that teenagers cant afford them and then all you will see on the road are restored 3rd gens. Most likely the camaro's and mustangs of the 90's and 2000's will be the new cheapo car and desired by the teenagers.

I think a well taken care of 3rd gen will have more value 10 years from now than it does now. These are not ford tempos, they have americana appeal, and detroit muscle. THe one thing holding them back is the fact that for 11 years they all looked more or less the same, so to the public they were as common as oxygen.
Now, I only see a couple a week out on the road, and only one a month that I actually am impressed with

Its just the age of the owners and age of the cars. I have a 74 Camaro and that valua went up alot since I bought it back in 96. Look how the LS1's came down in price and how cheap the LT1's are now. They will go up in time.

This may not help you any, but I am a ******* and I love 3rd gen camaros, but at least im not a wigger, prep, etc...

wow it wont let me type "*******" (red neck). thats just crazy.

I'm not saying it's top notch, but I will say that with macco and the other cheap paint shops you get what you pay for, if you buy the better paint job from them, you'll get a better outcome. I've seen some cars come out of there looking nice, but they paid for the nicer paint job.

as far as the Rustoleum paint job goes, look at FYRCHKN's car, it looks nice, not saying everyone would get his results(he put time and effort into it) but again, you get what you pay for/ work for.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/bo...paint-job.html (The ULTIMATE budget paint job (pic heavy))

again, I'm not saying everyone should go to macco, or get a can of rustoleum, but that you get what you pay for, or work for.

Im going to have to agree that these cars are currently the "budget" sports cars. That being said, there is a trend in the automotive world, after a car has been out for 5 years, the price drops to a fairly cheap price, at about 10 years old it becomes cheap, at 15 it hits rock bottom, and at 25-30 years old, the price climbs. And it doesnt stop. Now there are many criticisms on people with no money to fix the cars, but in the defense of some of us who arent lucky enough to have won the lottery(yet), i dont have much money, im restoriing my 87 on a military paycheck, which contrary to popluar demand is very little. But before i do any repairs, or upgrades, i save the money. One of the reasons my 383 project is months from completion, and why my 87 is currently waiting on a weatherstripping kit and a tranny. But you dont see me out there with duck tape trying to fix the leaks, or under the car trying to make a new exhaust system out of a stove pipe. Money isnt everything in these cars, i see plenty of people buy good quality parts, only to put minimal effort into prep work and installation. I'd rather see something that looks like it took time and effort and was thought out than i would see an expensive part poorly installed. I guess the real question is how much does the car mean to you, if its just a cheap "fast car" than you probably arent going to put the time and effort into it. If its the car of your dreams, youre going to do it right, regardless of the cost.

... I got a second job so that i could speed up my project. Im going to have to second the statement that 20+ year old cars require maintance.... like weatherstripping

When looking at the value of old cars versus today's values, it just won't work out the same as it did with the Muscle car era cars. Let me explain. With inflation, salaries have gone up and the general costs of everything have gone up. Look at that $4000 1969 Camaro Z28 in 1969. By the time it was 20, it coud be bought for more than the original $4k pricetag in great condition, but at what percentage more. By 1999, that same car was about $20k-$22k. That's a 5x increase over original pricing for the Z28.

Now look at the 3rd gen. I think the IROC-Z would most resemble the effects of the 69Z. Lets say the average cost of an IROC-Z from 87-90 (350 based models) would be about $18k. Can you find a clean IROC-Z, now about 20+ years old, for about the same as sticker? Not nearly as many as you would have of the 69 model in 1989. What do you think the chances of buying a 1988 IROC-Z in 2018 for $90k are? That would be restored, resto modded or original. I don't see it happeing. Now at 40 years of age, the 69 is about 10x it's original cost. Any chance of seeing an IROC-Z for $180k?

Don't forget supply vs demand. The late 60's cars came about when the baby boomers were coming of age. You've got 80 million kids, in a time when cars were glorified and important. Then you've got a production run of about 5 years where the Muscle Car reigned, followed by an oil crisis, and the dark ages of smog equipment. You'll never get all of those factors lined up like that again. There's a ton of built in nostalgia.

On the flip side, look at our thirdgens. Just look at some of the old commercials on youtube. I don't think anyone really looks at the culture and trends of the 80's and thinks it was cool. You've got 10 years of production, followed by another 10 years of production of what is essentially the same evolving car. Considering the current state of the economy, and trends toward more efficient vehicles, gov't sponsored programs, global warming, tree huggers, etc, what are the chances there will be enough self indulgant pricks with disposable income to sit around and bid on 1987 Iroc-Zs at Barret-Jackson in 2027? And even then, how many of those people are going to be interested in spending the big bucks? Will an Iroc-Z be the Hemi Cuda convertible of the future? Will a 89 TTA? I just don't see it happening the same way. Even if it did, enough people have perfectly preserved these cars, there are going to be far more of them around.

I would much rather be labelled someone with a "R3dnecks" car. Then be some Torreto wannabe listening to boom boom beats while cruising around in some import pile of wood.

I have met several so called "R3dnecks" in my life. They all work hard and put in a days labour that some of my fellow "city" punks couldn't muster in a lifetime. If they prefer a Camaro or Firebird that's fine by me. The fact that the idea of living in a ghetto like Detroit and acting Gangsta all day long as a better choice of lifestyle is just plain hilarious.

I believe once the majority of the clunker 3rd gen come off the road the public will begin to take 3rd gens in a more serious manner. I live in LA and i see the ghetto camaro with the 20-22" rims in an rs 305 tbi format people trying to pass off as a performance car. I also see the bucket cars barely running and sadly these cars are just too abundent. I've even converted my gf to be a third gen lover. and she no longer sees my 91 rs as rust bucket but she now notices the subtle details and upgrades i've made, the body lines, the slickness things are no longer available with newer cars

That's pretty much it. For every beautiful, sexy, fast, and well cared for third generation car, there are probably 100 rusted out ******* **** boxes.

Yeah sometimes censorship just gets way out of hand. I understand the filtering of certain words but *******, *****, etc. should be left for all to see.

Get the car you've always wanted. Fix it up nice and you friends will suddenly have a different attitude. For me thridgens are one of the best looking body styles. Even better when you have some performance to back it up.

Hey guys thanks for all the replies... They certainly gave me a better understanding. Thanks!

Agreed. They are one of the few good looking cars from the otherwise mundane and uninspired period of automotive history. Their design looks as good today as it did back then. (At least in my opinion.)

I hope you can also see that the condescending attitude you were asking about is also present in our own ranks.

Just because someone doesn't have $5000 to drop on a paint job, they are somehow dragging down the whole community.

ya man thats true

Unfortunately that's true. Still it's understandable. If you see a third generation car coming down the road and it looks like it's mint on the outside, people say, "what a nice car." If they see another third gen with $10,000 worth of performance mods in it and a primer gray, or original paint job that's in bad shape, they say "look at that ******* piece of crap." Non-car people don't give a crap what it sounds like or what is under the hood. They just look at the cars appearance and judge it based on that.

ya thats a good way to put it

I understand what you are saying. I will never be in that 'camp' of people.

If a person has a budget and has to cut some corners and paint their car with rattle cans, I can respect that. Especially if they went to the trouble to do a good job. At least they didn't say "Well, I don't have $5k for a paint job... might as well scrap it."

I wasn't referring to the people trying to do a good job. I have seen people on the Body forum talk about painting their car with a paint roller. The Maaco paint I'm referring to is the $129 paint job that paints over the door handles and window trim. I look at these the same way I look at the stick on accessories that you find at Pep Boys. They look cheap because they are cheap. Buying a double-sided-tape stick on hood scoop versus buying a real cowl hood falls into the same category. They are not quality jobs, but just a cheap attempt at making the car look better. It doesn't work and that's where the image comes from.

I'm a firm believer of "do it right the first time". If you can't financially do it right, then wait until you can. Do waht you can afford to do correctly, and save for the bigger items. Not all of these cars have the image that you speak of, but unfortunately, it is the first thought that comes to mind in many people.

It's not really like that. There's a difference between not being able to afford a $5000 paint job, and slapping on 8 "APC" decals, a chrome elephant hood ornament, a chrome antenna, fake fender vents, 13" gold wire wheels, some Ractive seat covers, flame floor mats, a barbed wire license plate frame, etc on what was a really clean 91 Z28. That kind of garbage is just pure stupidity in action. It's defacing a good looking car and making the rest of us look bad by association. Obviously this is an extreme (but absolutely realistic) example, but you see it on this forum to a lesser degree with aftermarket fiberglass hoods, stupid modifications performed solely to be different, etc.

You'll get no disagreement from me on that count. However, I look at it like it's their car and they can do whatever they like. It has no effect on me or my car. No one is going to look at your car (or scottmoyer's) and think the 'R' word.

I guess what I'm really trying to say to the OP is, people are always going to try to maintain a certain level of superiority whether it's your car or what football team you root for. In the end you're buying and maintaining the car for yourself, not your friends. Buy what you want.

But the reason for the statements made was in direct response to the OP's question of why do 3rd gens carry this stigma. What Drew and I stated are the reasons. I can appreciate the cars that get a lot of sweat and bruises while building them. I can respect a car that was built up from nothing to a beautiful car, but I can't respect a car that has side pipes with the rear jacked up, interior trashed and fake side vents on it with 4 mismatched tires.

Couldn't have said it any better!

I'm not disputing that. You and others in this thread have given good examples of where the stigma comes from. I can also add with some confidence that other makes and model cars and trucks have suffered at the hands of 'hacks' but the label, unfortunately, has stuck to our cars.

Nothing in the OP's post(s) indicated that he would change his mind about buying a third gen based on other's perception. I only offered a parallel point of view that a person shouldn't base his or her buying of a vehicle or their choice of modifications on the prejudiced or narrow-minded opinions of others. Maybe I shouldn't have because it didn't directly answer his question.

(P.S. I'm not calling you or anyone else in this thread 'prejudiced' or 'narrow-minded' just to be clear.)

I'll shut up now.

Don't shut up, these kinds of threads belong here, and it's a fun discussion. There's no right or wrong answer, we're just sharing opinions. When all the opinions are exactly the same, things get extremely boring.

You're right, people will always act like their junk is the best out there. Whether they're chest beating in the face of common sense, or just blinded by loyalty and pride in their own choice doesn't matter, but it almost always works out that way.

ya this is a pretty interesting topic... and your right .....

The silver lining to the red neck stigma cloud is that when you do see a fine and unmolested 3rd gen, it stands out as even more impressive!
Diamonds in the rough.

Even some 1st gens arn't immune to the stigma, sadley I'm old enough to remeber those days . This one is a few miles from where I grew up!

Even if Camaros have some bad reputation, it wouldn't change my opinion. I like them, so I bought one. I keep it nice and don't skimp on repairs, because that's the way that I want it. By the way, if you think the hacking done to Camaros is bad, you should see the sins done to Corvettes. If I ever find the previous owner of my 76 Stingray who took care of "maintaining" it, I'm going to introduce his 'nads to the toe of my boot.

Birdhouses or not, I'd drive the wheels off that 69... Hell, the paint is in better shape then most my recent beaters.

in the early & mid 1980's a red neck car could be classified as a 1st gen, I remember them well, rusted out, big loud un muffled engine, Big back tires, and painted flat black... Then a few years later the 2nd gens were piling up in peoples back yard, rats were making nests in carburetors, and chewing holes in upholstery.

Its just our turn, actually the trend is working its way to the 4th gen as I type this. It will not be long and a 4th gen will be considered back yard trash, I already see it locally. Third gens, as they become more rare will fall out of the memory of being hillbilly trash, and regarded as a collector car. It is all a cycle, I have written small articles about it, and it is just our turn... not for much longer tho, I notice even magazines are paying more attention to third gens, even a surprise visit to a car show gets their attention...

Like Scott said, as long as you keep it looking nice, make modifications in taste, people will not view you that way. Make sure you do not have a mu11et and that will help too.

BTW, why the heck is "Red neck" (as one word) and Mu11et filtered? see: *******, ******, we might as well filter Hillbilly

John

Agreed. I see a lot of trashed 93-97 cars, and the 98-up cars fell victim to tasteless appearance mods too... All the stick on add-on's, vinyl flames, and Torque Thrust II's, will be considered crap into the future.

^ I agree. Even to the point that it has moved on to the LT1 cars already. They look like crap daily, but I haven't seen a 3rd gen in weeks, and it was a very clean Formula.

Drew, stock nazi I take it? TT2s and fiberglass hoods are distasteful? TT2s look great on every gen of f-body. Ford has basically made their own version stock on the current Mustang. And a lot of 'glass hoods improve where the factory left off, due to cheapness or crappy '80s design. Why not have a better looking & lighter hood? Granted, a RA2 looks terrible on any car, even 4th gens, but the tastefully done Japanese carbon fiber Camaro of legend would win shows here & now, and 20 years from now.

agreed. and lol ya i dunno why those words arent allowed.. but oh well

Nazi is a little harsh, I'm not exactly committing genocide by saying trendy appearance mods look stupid now and will look stupid in the future. It's my opinion, and it's no less valid then your opinion that it looks good.

It's been said that "Stock never goes out of style", and it's true. Even when trends change, it's still representative of the time period and will have a following with those that appreciate the original styling. Modification trends comes and go and leave generations scratching their heads wondering why the hell anyone ever thought it looked good. Take the van craze of the 70's, or the pro-stock look, or the easter egg paint jobs of the 80's, as examples. Everybody thought 15" Cragar's would be timeless too.

Yes, nazi is harsh, but the generally accepted slang term IMO. I don't think "raped" is the best word to use for beating someone in a video game either. heh....

Car Craft makes fun of the van craze all the time, then goes on to gush about pro touring. *shrug*
I still think pro stock looks good (if it has the goods to back it up), and 15" Cragars do look good on 1st gen Camaros that originally came with 14"s.
As for keeping stock, I think most of us are trying to knock off the bits of factory cheese. "wondering why people thought it looked good" applies to GM designers too. I think the bowling ball wheel covers, 4" fender gap and red interiors (all factory items) help the red neck stigma as well.

Yea, I don't understand either. I think political correctess has taken its toll on society and really it is doing nothing but making people "softies". I think when people get their feelings hurt, THEY can allow it to do one of two different things to them. Either make them feel self pity or make them a stronger person. Just my , I am just a R3dneck from Kentucky lol.