History / RestorationGot a question about Third Gen (1982-1992) Camaro or Firebird history? Where can I find these original parts? What is this option or RPO code? Those questions, answers, and more!
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I am so happy to have discovered this board. My 17-year-old son purchased an '86 Firebird SE from a family friend, at which time, I began cruising the 'net for any resources that I could find. Imagine my surprise at finding this board dedicated to Third Gens!
We had originally planned to do a paint job and make some interior repairs to this well-maintained, 220,000 mile V6... but my son was enjoying his new-found freedom so much, that we procrastinated. Besides, he is very active in ROTC at school and works full-time in the summer. Since he intends to go to West Point (crossing fingers) after graduation, I figured I'd just do a total restoration while he's at school, with the hope of having it all done by the time he gets his commission.
This all changed abruptly when he broke a sway bar link going around a curve, lost control, and took his car straight up and over an embankment. Poor "Nellie", as her previous owner had named her, took quite a beating. After two weekends using a slide hammer, a come-along, and various other implements of destruction, we managed to get Nellie roadworthy again.
Since we now felt compelled to get her fixed up, (she runs like a dream and the oil has never been dirty) we started looking up parts. Everything from the nose forward except the hood was pretty badly damaged, although I may be able to save the fenders if I spend enough time on them. From the doors back she's fine.
So, we began searching, and found a parts car nearby, advertised as a T-Top '87 'Bird, with a cracked engine block. The owner claimed the body was straight, and it was either going to the crusher or he'd take $200 for it. We bought the car, which turned out to be so clean (except for a couple of minor dents in the fenders) that we seriously began to think about repairing it rather than scavenging.
We now have decisions to make: They are both 2.8 FI V-6's, and after having removed the engine and T-5 from the '87 (Nellie is an automatic), we see no visible evidence of a cracked block. Alex would like to keep driving Nellie, so we have firmly decided to fix the '87, and then dear old Dad will make a total project out of Nellie.
We plan to tear down the '87's engine and evaluate it... Alex has no desire for a V-8, and I don't think the T-5 would bear up well behind it. However, if the T-5 is scrap, and we run into parts scarcity problems, we might think about a V-8. One problem is that Alex is not willing to dump huge sums of money into the car unless he is forced to.
Any pointers/tips from y'all would be most appreciated. I have done many resto's and countless engine and trans rebuilds, but it's been years, and I am not intimately familiar with Third Gen's. Sadly, as I am 51 years old, my time was put in on First Gen's, and this is all making me choke up for having sold my '69 Camaro... I was delighted to find and read the thread by Kurt and Derek Boehringer, and most impressed with what they did, and all without a garage... more details as they develop... please post with advice on 2.8 V6's if you have anything to offer.
Tim Ernandes
Moneta, VA
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Last edited by ternandes; 02-09-2009 at 10:58 AM.
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Just a comment on a T-5 and a V-8. It should hold up well for daily driving, my dad drove my 84 TA as a daily driver for 4 years 100 miles a day. Good luck with that build. We tried to restore the 84 (it blew the motor in '02) for cheap and so far nothing has gone to plan as far as getting the engine and etc put together but I think I am still only 500-600 dollars into the project. Got it cranking but won't start.....go figure. I'd offer advice on the 2.8 as my brother's car has one but it is a Fiero so its got a different setup due to the mid engine layout.
I know that the T-5 was installed behind many V8's. My concern is that since it was the lightweight version, (NWC), we would be pushing it too hard with the V8. Plus we are hoping that the existing engine can be rebuilt at a relatively low cost. Again, this could be a moot point if the T5 is wrecked.
The guy we bought the car from said he was going to do a V8 swap, then changed his mind. He had tried to pull the engine and trans as a unit, with the counterweight still on the trans, and the engine pipe still attached. He left it sitting crooked atop the engine mounts, and we had a bear of a time getting everything disconnected and the engine and trans out. Since we never heard it run, we have no idea what we have until after we do a teardown.
One thing that concerns me is that it appears that he blew his slip yoke to bits, and the drive shaft actually beat a groove in the tranny tunnel, which I will have to patch weld. This gives me some apprehension about what I will find inside that tranny.
Looking at it from a non-sentimental stand point, I would simply inspect and compare each car and choose the body that was in the best condition. You dont seem to be afraid of doing the engine swaps, so thats good. Third gens are not too complicated once you get down to it.
I understand your son's desire to keep "Nellie" on the road, but you will have to decide what you want to do. It may be more work to fix the 86, but it has more sentimental value, versus less work for the 87. Either way it would be a good way for you two to bond, and that could make the 87 just as important to your son. Also, you may want to consider the fact that the 86 S/E is a fairly uncommon version of the Firebird and will always be a bit more rare than the base model birds. According to this site it looks like there were 2,259 S/E's built in 86 (out of about 110,000 total Firebirds built that year).
Also, the hood is unique to the 85/86 S/E as are the badges, decals, and rear taillight center section.
That's interesting... I had wondered about the value of an '86 SE.
My son only really wants to keep Nellie on the road because it is his independence. We live a long ways from everything out in the country, and he has become accustomed to being able to go to ROTC functions, and work without having to beg a ride from his Mom.
Nellie's former owner, a good friend of the family, had babied this car, and hates the thought of it being scrapped. As it happens, so do I. The '87 is a much better body, with 175K miles on it, and the 5-speed appeals to Alex a lot, although I'll have to teach him how to drive it. Both cars have T-Tops, but supposedly the 87 does not leak, while Nellie is a leaker.
We have decided to restore the '87 without scrounging Nellie for parts, and let him continue to drive Nellie while the work is being done. After the '87 is driving every day, I have decided to tear down the '86 and give her the love she deserves. I am toying with the idea of swapping her over to a v8 and a stick shift, but not sure if that is wise. Even at 220K, she runs like new. I'll probably not touch anything on the motor or trans until it's called for. In the meantime, the body work will keep me busy enough.
I dont think S/E's will ever bring a large "value" compared to the T/A's, GTA's, IROC-Z's etc. As far as your car, with its mileage I wouldnt value it above any other birds with similar mileage. The S/E package does not seem to be particularly valuable to the general public. They are more of an under appreciated oddity than anything.
Oh, and dont be fooled... T-tops will always find a way to leak j/k
Oh, and dont be fooled... T-tops will always find a way to leak j/k[/quote]
I know T-Tops are an issue. We have come a long way to solving Nellie's T-Top problems, but we are not done. I read another thread on this board that details the things that we suspect need to be done.
Apparently, a lot of people replace the seal, when the leaks often occur between the seal and the body. This was my experience on my '76 Vette, which I sealed once and for all once I figured that out.
I would definitely recommend pulling the tranny out because it makes the installation much easier. Anyway, another thing to keep an eye on if you switch to a V-8 with the T-5 is the flywheel. I ran into all kinds of issues with finding the right clutch and flywheel combination for my car because I was putting in an 87 LG4 with the L69 pieces and hooking it up to an 84 T-5. I eventually figured out the problem and got it in. (was a parts problem) Due to the frankenstien nature of my motor I would say you might not have that problem. I would agree with those here on choosing the better body but if you guys are willing to do the work then do them both I say. My car was a father son project til Dad passed unexpectedly in October. Since then I've decided to keep the car and finish it. People have told me that that is the only thing that I can do. My goal is to get it to the Hershey Fall Meet in October, enter it in the orignal class. Maybe if the car feels solid then I will try for the TA Nationals. Depends on work as that is not a day trip for me.
What seal are you talking about on the T-tops? You mean the weatherstripping?
Yes, the t-top weatherstripping seems to baffle a lot of people. When I examined my Vette, and later my son's car, in both cases it was clear to me that the leak was between the seal and the sheetmetal.
We took the trans out before pulling the engine. Made the job a lot easier. Found the pilot bushing was totally wiped. I am almost afraid to look inside that gearbox, but the folks at Hanson's told me it might still be OK
Yes, the t-top weatherstripping seems to baffle a lot of people. When I examined my Vette, and later my son's car, in both cases it was clear to me that the leak was between the seal and the sheetmetal.
So you are saying that if I re-strip it with a ton of sealant or use sealant along the stripping I have on there now it should stop leaking? Mine I think leaks when it is pouring down rain but I am not certain as it hasn't been out on the road in almost 7 years.
Secondly, if the pilot bushing is wiped then it could be a input shaft problem or an alignment problem in the clutch. If the gearbox spins smoothly when you turn the shafts then it might just be a problem on the shafts. If there is grinding or you can't turn the shaft then there is an internal problem. I looked at rebuilding my T-5 until I figured "If it ain't broke don't fix it" I believe a rebuild kit doing it yourself would only run about 150 bucks. As for the slip yoke you might end up needing to replace that.
I'd have to look it up, but there is a great thread on this board that goes into detail on how to cure the leaky t-tops, but, yes, if you carefully seal along the weatherstripping, you should be able to cure the leaks. The reason why it takes so long to show up is because the water gradually seeps in between the seal and the sheetmetal.
Since this car has 175,000 miles on it, and in view of the evidence, I think a trans rebuild is unquestionably called-for. The slip yoke will definitely have to be replaced, as it is missing from the car, and my assessment of the damage tells me it shattered or broke away at high speed.
wow, your son better be glad he has a dad willing to help, i lost my dad at 18 and would give the world to have him around.....im sure if he was around now (almost 8 years later) my camaro would be mint right now
anyway to keep it low buck you need to go to some junk yards, people who sell 3rd gen parts know how hard they are to find and the prices sometime reflect that, 1 part could cover the $200 for the other car you got, its just a matter of time and man power to strip the cars
i feel its good to restore a V6 / non top of the line bird/maro as most people put a V8 in or clone it to a trans am/ z28
since your son need to be foreced to spend $$$$ on the car (when i was his age i had to forced not to spend $$$$ on my cars) maybe try some motivation, like car shows or some pics of the nice ones on here..... i guess and its all up to you, you can help all you want, but that would depend on your situation, and if you know your son would respect it as if he put his $$$$ and time in it
If I remember, arent the bellhousings different on a v-6 and a v-8 transmission. A v-6 trans wont bolt up to a v-8 or unless you change the bellhousing on a manual trans(dont have that option on an auto trans)and what about the strength of it. Might be better to get a v-8 manual trans if your going to do a v-8 swap.
Yes, the bell housings are different on this V6 than a V8. If it was a 4.3, they'd be the same... we will probably not do the V8 swap, as I believe we would end up spending a lot more in the long run... but I'll never say "never".
89RS_82Z, this is a dream come true for me. I have been tinkering with cars ever since I was 16 years old. I worked my way through college doing engine rebuilds and body work, and have always been interested in tools and all sorts of work... in fact, my wife claims that I have at least one of every tool ever made (not nearly true)... my friends used to call me "Tim the Tool Man".
I have only the one son (two beautiful daughters). When he was little, he was fascinated by my tools and always followed me around. There are still probably some tools laying in the lawn at our old house that I never found. He used to pick them up and wander about the yard with them. In fact, I never did find the key to my lawn tractor... but that's another story.
After he got older, I was planning to buy him his own set of tools, that he could take with him, but he showed absolutely no interest. However, he works very hard in school, has a 2nd degree black belt, and he's a really good kid. So in spite of my disappointment, I just counted my blessings.
Then along came Nellie... my son suddenly attached great value to having his own transportation... and it didn't hurt that she was so 'sexy'. All his friends drooled over his car, nevermind that her paint was chalky and peeling in spots.
I had bought him a starter set of tools for Christmas, but without a lot of hope that he'd ever use them. After two weekends together, he said to me, "Dad, I think this is kinda cool. I'm really starting to enjoy spending all this time with you, and I'm learning at the same time". Karma. (Carma?)
OH... there is one thing that could be a HUGE help to us. 89RS_82Z mentioned junkyards. When we lived in NY, there were junkyards everywhere, and I cruised them a lot in my younger days. We now live in SW VA, and I don't have the first clue about what might be nearby. Anyone in the area know of good yards in the Roanoke/Lynchburg area that might have some 3rd Gens?
yea thats cool that he may be starting to get interested in it, kinda hard for me to say, at 17 my dad was sick alot, but he was my best friend and one of all my friends friend, but we never got a chance to tinker, his whole thing is BAH i got the money to pay someone to do, but i did get left a bunch of tool (and trust me i gained a whole new respect on knowing were my tool were).....i think IF you can afford it that he may get into it more if you get some cool "toys" for the car....but like i said thats up to you and how you want to handle that
as for the junk yards, E-bay is the next best thing to a junk yard, also the parts wanted and parts for sale on this site is pretty nice, not as cheap a j/y's but better than new parts (if you can even find them)
I'll tell you, I was beginning to wonder who I'd leave all of my tools to... now I think he is gaining a new appreciation.
He's a practical kid, but he DOES get off on the prospect of having the 5-speed, and we are going to swap the fancy wheels off Nellie, which he just put new tires on. I'll have to scrounge myself a set of nice wheels after Nellie is restored.
As for me helping, I am at the worst point possible -- I am trying to run 2 struggling small businesses, one that pays me NOTHING and the other I occasionally get a check from... and my wife recently lost her job, which was making the difference. Now I have all I can do to keep paying the bills, so this one is going to have to be all on the kid. Believe me, if I had it, I'd give him a hand. In fact, when he first got the car, things were better, and I bought him a repair manual and some parts that he needed.
I have been practically living on ebay and in the classifieds here, doing research on what's available and what it will cost. When I read Kurt Boehringer's thread, I was impressed by the number of available donor cars he found at various yards, and also by the "U-Pull" yards where you can take all you can carry for 29.95 -- I'd kill for that opportunity here. I was told about one local yard that supposedly has a lot of older cars. I will be checking it out soon.
It's good that you have a Son who's becoming interested in cars and restoration - one can never have enough skills, you just never know what you're going to have to be able to do as you go along . . . The thing I like about these third-gen cars is that there are still a lot of them around, both for parts, or to fix up and drive, and it can be done on a budget - and these cars are not terribly complex to work on, unlike certain German makes I've owned in the past. Good luck with the cars, and with your Son's West Point aspirations.
im in 120% LOVE with the u-pull-its they are great, you can get part off other cars/truck and modify them to go one something else (i do that with my "burn out van" (in VbGarage) all the time, i got a good freind that goes with me and we wonder through all sections......FYI check out spair tires for the correct grey tire valve caps that our cars should have they can bring in some good $$$ on ebay or here sometimes and you can sometimes find 10 of them in one trip to the u-pull-it
wish times were better for ya, they are not easy on any of us, i had my own company for years and had to quit a year ago i know how that goes
Thanks for the encouragement, Mark, and 89RS... things are not as bad as they could be, so I focus on the positive.
When we pulled the engine, I used a 3-ton chain hoist that I have had since I was Alex's age. Unfortunately, I have not used it in many, many years, and it was very rusty. We had a hard time getting it to 'latch' as we hoisted the motor, but we got it to work.
I don't like 'cherry pickers' because they make it difficult to get under the car if you have to, and also they can be difficult to control. I have always preferred to hoist the motor from a scaffold (we braced the garage ceiling), and rolling the car out from under it. This is what we did, and after we got the car out of the way, we reversed the hoist, and the damn thing let go. Fortunately, my son, (nickname: Moose) who was keeping tension on the chain that fed the hoist, was able to keep it from hitting the concrete.
We put the engine on a stand, and made a quick trip to Harbor Freight. We bought an electric hoist (1300 lb capacity) that was on sale for $130. I'd have hated to put all this time and money into the car only to drop the new engine on the windshield. During the drive to Roanoke, my son was chattering away about the project (he never talks) and other things. Life is good.
The T5 that they used behind the V6 is not rated for the same amount of Torque as the T5 they used behind the V8. I think that the V6 engine was rated for 225 ft-lb or somewhere around there, and the world Class T5 was rated at 300 ft-lb or maybe just over. Main point is don't use the V6 tranny behind a V8 and expect it to live for long, especially if you beat on it.
The V6s in those cars are really reliable and good runners for what they are. There is a V6 section on this board with a lot of really knowledgeable people on there. One of the most popular upgrades for a 3rd gen 2.8 or 3.1 V6 is a 3.4 liter V6 out of the 1993-95 camaro and firebird. There is a whole lot of information on how to do the swap, and still use your stock accessories, belts, manifolds, exhaust, sensors, computer, etc... and it will all work correctly and look just like stock... Only with about 20 more HP and 30 more ft-lbs of torque than a 2.8 liter.
You can probably buy a whole 3.4 liter engine for a few hundred bucks in a junkyard... Why not do a little upgrade while you are at it? I plan on upgrading to a 3.4 liter in my 1992 firebird eventually.
__________________ F-bodies I own:
1992 Firebird 3.1 V6 (Used to have 75 HP nitrous shot)
1984 15th anniversary Trans Am (2 cars, future project to take both cars and make one good one)
1969 Firebird 400 4 speed. Actually has a 455 in it. Almost done with the complete restoration.
Pontiacguy: I am aware of the shortcomings of the V6 T5. That's why I am factoring the condition of the trans into our decision. We don't want to spend money unnecessarily, but if it is going to be spent, we want to get the most bang for the buck.
I have been doing a lot of research on the 3.4 liter swap, because that intrigues me. It would be a cheap way to upgrade to a little more HP without having to do modifications. Again, part of our decision will depend on the condition of the present engine and trans. If the engine block is no good, or needs major machine work, I'd definitely opt for the 3.4 before I'd go nuts looking for a 2.8 block. I think it would be an excellent compromise.
My wife had a Venture van until recently with a 3.4, and it had a lot of power for a V6, so I am sure that it would be a good way to go.
We plan to tear down the engine and trans this weekend... we'll know more after we have evaluated what we have.
Reading about your project sounds a lot like the father-son project I'm doing with my son. We also have a 'parts car' and can't decide which body or drive train to use. Post some pics of your progress. Looking forward to the updates. Our project can be viewed from the link in my signature.
When I was under the '87 removing the trans and engine, I noted that the underbody of this car was as clean as a whistle. I chalk it up to most likely a combination of being garage-kept and our mild southern winters.
We have ultimately decided to restore BOTH cars, although the '87 is the focus, since it will become his daily driver. We have taken some pics, but I don't know what Alex has done with the camera card. As soon as I get it, I'll post a few 'before' pics. This weekend, we'll find out what kind of shape the engine and trans are in, and then we'll start making some decisions.
The interiors of both of our cars are in pretty sad shape, but we are hoping to do some of our own repairs to door panels, etc. and maybe retrofitting with Gen4 seats. Your Camaro's interior doesn't look half bad in the photos.
I feel your pain! We picked up an 85 IROC for a parts vehicle, but the body is in great shape compared to the 86. The 85 is a hardtop with a 305TPI auto. The 86 has T-Tops and a 5-speed which my son wants. So do we cut the roof off the 86 and put it on the 85, or cut up the 85 and use the floors/quarters on the 86? I'm of course looking for the easiest alternative. Whatever happens I'm planning to keep the leftover car for myself.
OK, we tore down the engine today. The guy we bought it from told us that it had a cracked block. We are down to the bare block, and there are no visible cracks. He did also tell us that he had blown a freeze plug, and we have confirmed that there is a bad one that is rusted through.
Cylinder walls have very little wear, but until my parts washer gets here, we won't be able to clean and degrease everything, and I won't be taking measurements until our parts are clean.
The top end was very gunky, but the bottom end is surprisingly smooth and tight. Oil pickup screen is clean, and bearings show very little wear.
I'm going to try and post some pix. The first is of "Nellie", as we were pulling her back into shape... the second and third are of the '87. She doesn't look like much, but trust me, she's a diamond in the rough.
The valve covers and topside of the heads were loaded with gunk...
The cylinders showed surprisingly little wear. There is a visible discoloration at the top, but the actual ridge is not discernible unless you give it the 'fingernail' check.
The oil pan was a lot less sludged than I expected...
OK one more set of pix and then I have to go help my Dad with a computer issue, and finish writing an article for a local magazine. Alex has a book report, and his g/f is coming over, and we are all going out later for Valentine's Day...
The previous owner had hacked this engine pipe just short of the cat... the companion piece is still bolted to the cat... it is quite solid, and I am seriously considering welding it all back together after pricing a new one.
Crank and bearings all look great... we may not have to do any machine work here (fingers crossed). I could not get the crank timing gear off... before I stick it in the press I will read the repair manual just in case...
Evidence of a blown head gasket, which may explain the incorrect "cracked block" diagnosis.
Look closely, guys... the pilot bushing is still there... but totally wiped.
First, we have a car that blew the head gasket three times in 140,000 miles. The last time it blew up it should have been scrapped but the guys thought it was only the second time the car did it so it was redone anyway they said oil was getting into the antifreeze but they didn't know how. My guess is the block might have a hairline crack and it opens up letting oil out slowly over long drives. Eventually causing a blown head gasket. So make sure the block is not cracked.
As for the pilot bushing.....WOW I've never seen a bushing that bad. Are the tranny mounts broken or anything, motor mounts, otherwise there might be some problems internally with the tranny that could require a rebuild.
Well, as I said earlier, we plan to carefully clean and inspect. The block will probably be sent out for a chemical bath, at which time we can have it inspected more thoroughly.
Tranny mounts and engine mount are OK. This is a mystery as far as I am concerned. Of course, I have not opened up the tranny (I am waiting for a parts washer to arrive, and I have run out of bench space). Our plan is to rebuild the transmission, unless it is too far gone. Then we will probably buy another used one and rebuild it.
Something has been bothering me all morning. When I took the heads off, one came off surprisingly easily, which led me to suspect a blown head gasket. Absent any visible cracks in the block, this led me to assume that the block was not cracked.
What was bothering me was that as nearly as I could recall, the 'easy' head was on the opposite side of the rusty stain on the side of the block. So, I decided to go out into the garage and examine that spot, since I saw no other problems anywhere else.
I wear progressive bifocals, so unfortunately, anything judged with the use of my eyesight is always subject to verification. A careful close inspection revealed a hairline crack, about 1/4" down from the head mating surface, running sideways, right above and neatly explaining the huge rust stain on the side of the block. My bad. Of course, we would have spotted this during cleaning and measuring, but it still bothers me that I didn't see this sooner.
If you zoom on the pic (see previous post), you can see the crack right at the top of the dark rusty area.
Of course, this now opens a can of worms. It will be necessary to inspect the trans before we make a decision regarding a replacement block/engine. If this trans is a basket case, I might reconsider the whole V8 thing. Or not.
I sent the picture of the pilot bushing to my drivetrain professor out here on campus to get his opinion on it. Hes seen and done work on a lot of cars so he might have an answer. I am glad you found that crack because otherwise it would have been a waste of time. I might be right about a cracked block on the car with the head gasket issue.....great. Now I am going to have to convince mom somehow to junk that car.....anyways as far as engine goes, do what you want to do within your budget of course. V6 would be nice because so many conversions have been done already, on the other hand theres no arguing the power of a V8. Whatever you do I am sure it will be fun working together on it.
Truth be told, I think we will most likely stick with the V6. However, that is because of the associated expenses with converting to a V8. If the tranny is wiped, it makes things like that a bit less painful.
I personally believe that we might actually have an easier time trying to set the car up with a TPI 305. A lot of people seem to want to go up to a 350, and a lot of them also shy away from TPI, which I rather like.
I once had an S-10 Blazer with carb and no computer. When the engine blew, I replaced it with pretty much the same engine that is in my son's car -- a 2.8 V6 with MPFI. I had to scrounge for parts, like a wiring harness, which I eventually made by splicing together 2 or 3 separate harnesses to get what I needed. I got it working, and a lot better than the carbed engine ever ran. Bottom line, I have no fear of electronics.
But, this is all premature. If the trans is OK, we'll probably explore the idea of the 3.4 swap, although they seem to be relatively rare as well, and I don't see parts kits readily available either.
As for your mom's car, I wonder if the shop ever checked the heads for warpage? If they are aluminum, that happens a lot.
I heard back from my professor and this is what he had to say.
"Most likely just unlucky - I've seen more than a few that looked pretty similar. I bet the clutch was chattering a LOT. Not sure about the slip yoke - most likely cause is abuse (dumping the clutch, etc.)"
Tell you the truth the explanation makes sense. LOL.
As for the car with the head gasket issues (we have four drivers) it does have aluminum heads with an Iron block. A cracked block could easily be missed especially if the cooling jackets are cracked internally. I know that is automatic failure just a matter of time. If it blows again then we will get rid of it. My mom's counter is its a running car and we don't have the money to get another one. So we will limit it to local driving until it blows again. Hopefully 80K miles like the previous ones.
If you are getting 80K miles out of the car before the head gasket blows, I doubt you have a cracked block. I would think that it would fail a lot sooner than that.
You probably have either a design issue, or you may need to change mechanics... but again, 80K is a long time for a 'bad' engine to run.
If you are getting 80K miles out of the car before the head gasket blows, I doubt you have a cracked block. I would think that it would fail a lot sooner than that.
You probably have either a design issue, or you may need to change mechanics... but again, 80K is a long time for a 'bad' engine to run.
Oh I don't think we need to change mechanics. LOL Dad did the engine one time and he knew what he was doing after all he rebuilt his 77 Firebird three times after a few serious wrecks including hitting a deer at 80 mph. I finished putting the timing belt on that time and it started on the first try. Got the timing right the second try (went a notch too far). Anyway I don't know what the hell is wrong with it. We are so far off topic right now anyway so we should quit going back and forth on a engine out of a Mercury Tracer Wagon.
Hey neighbor! I know all about living far from everything in these parts. I just moved to Moneta 6 months ago, and boy its a drive to get to civilization haha! You've mentioned doing a v6-v8 swap. I may be able to help. I did this swap on my first project car about 10 years ago during my senior year in HS. I might be able to help you figure out what little things you might now know.
As far as junkyards, I have the solution! My good buddy not only has like 6 3rdgen parts cars, he knows where all the 3rdgens are in the junkyards!! I can get you in touch with him if you'd like.
You know where Fisher Auto parts is? I live in the vacant looking tan building next to it. Upstairs is vacant, I live/work in the basement
builders/investors built it for an office for their modular home business. Modular business tanked, so they had a frame of a building they didn't want to finish. I approached them for a 5 year lease downstairs, and they agreed and built it to suit my needs.....thinking about buying the whole building in a year or two
Small world, man. I just talked to Desiree at Devo's Grill. Apparently, y'all are friends. I get breakfast from her every morning. She says you're a great guy. I have to go all over the world wide web to find help just down the street. Funny.
The easiest 'cheap' upgrade would be to go with a 3.4 liter engine. You need the block, heads, oil pan, basically get the whole engine, and you will have everything. They are not too hard to find... They were the base engine in 1993-1995 Camaros and Firebirds, which means that there are thousands of them out there. You want to get the heads too, because they are better than the 3.1 liter heads. There is a whole post about exactly how to do this, and it is very straightforward.
Because of balancing... be sure to use the flywheel from either a 3.1 or a 3.4 liter. Those little engines have surprising torque for their size (200 ft-lbs).
If you decide on doing the whole V8 swap, the best thing would be to find a wrecked donor car and get everything out of it: trans, engine, front springs, accessories, radiator, wiring harness, ecm, mounts, sway bars, etc...
Mild or wild... be safe and have fun!
__________________ F-bodies I own:
1992 Firebird 3.1 V6 (Used to have 75 HP nitrous shot)
1984 15th anniversary Trans Am (2 cars, future project to take both cars and make one good one)
1969 Firebird 400 4 speed. Actually has a 455 in it. Almost done with the complete restoration.
We are seriously considering it... the problem we are having is that so far, I have not been able to locate a yard that has a 3.4 in any condition, except for a few that they want insane money for ($1500). I am being told that even 1995 is too old. Of course, we have only begun our search.
My thinking as regards the V8 was mostly about easy and cheap availability of parts. My son would be happy with the V6 no questions asked.
Hey, dumb question -- my son's 86 has the electric pull-down motor. I am guessing from what I read that they don't all have it. The reason I ask is because the 87 came without a battery, and also without a hatch key.
I can drill out the lock if I have to, but I was wondering if the electric hatch release is also optional. Naturally, if they all have an electric release, I could apply power and pop it open without drilling.
After finding the cracked block, work has virtually stopped. I am unable to locate a replacement block for the 2.8, and have been advised against doing so by everyone with an opinion. 3.1s and 3.4s seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth around here.
Today I finally decided to start tearing down the transmission. I am waiting on a parts washer, but I figured I'd at least get started in case the tranny was also a basket case.
I removed the tail housing and cover, and was quite surprised to see nothing out of order. The trans shifts easily into all gears, and there is no abnormal wear on the teeth. So far, so good -- but of course, I won't know for sure until I get the mainshaft apart, and I'll only do that if we are going to stick with the V6. This transmission would not be usable behind a V8, which is what everyone I talk to is recommending.
The input shaft doesn't match any of the V8 clutch discs that I have been able to find. Also, the trans itself is rated at just under the max torque of the 305 TPI motor, which is what we'd like to use if we go to a V8. My son is only interested in driveability, not performance. I might try to sneak by with this transmission if I could find a suitable clutch setup.
Until we settle on a new block/engine, we are stuck for the moment. I don't want to put any time or money into the trans unless I know that we will be using it.
Well, the search is over, and the decision has been made. After exploring numerous opportunities, we have found an engine locally that is an exact replacement for the original.
Thanks to "1234bird" and JustinFormy89, I found a local yard who had a replacement engine. In fact, they had three, and they sold me the best one of the lot, complete with radiator and associated hardware (ours is missing) for $200.
In keeping with the 'low-buck' theme, and the fact that my son has no great desire to burn rubber, we have settled on this as the best solution. No 3.1s or 3.4s were available, unless we wanted to travel a long way and spend more than a reasonable amount of money. The main thing is that Alex is happy, since his present car has the 2.8, and he is pleased both with its performance and the gas mileage. Plus, there are rebuild kits available, and they are quite affordable.
Thanks to everyone at TGO who offered suggestions, advice, and assistance!
We will be ordering a trans kit from Hanlon Motorsports, and now we are working on the car's interior while we wait for the engine to be pulled out of the junkyard car. Still no parts washer -- Harbor Freight is one of my fave sources for tools, but so far they have not come through on this one.
Yesterday, I went to a Tractor Supply that I found near the junkyard. They have a washer for $20 more, but it's on the shelf. If Harbor Freight does not come through this week, I'll bite for the extra 20 at TSC.
j/k 
anyway they said oil was getting into the antifreeze but they didn't know how. My guess is the block might have a hairline crack and it opens up letting oil out slowly over long drives. Eventually causing a blown head gasket. So make sure the block is not cracked. 
