Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

That is a real stupid statement. Do you have any idea what cars are capable these days. My car runs 10's on 89 octane and I have made it a point to drive it daily for a bit just for the heck of it. I will be adding a 250 shot to it this season hopefully and it will go 9's and require a full 10 point cage. Guess what, I will still be driving it regulary.






I just spoke with S+W about the rear bars going into the lower well. The cage I bought has the same style bars which are there "pro street" bar option. I asked them about the shock towers being a better mounting point and they agreed that it is. However, some people want the bars over the rear seat and to the back for people in the back seat. I might modify the Pro street bars to land in the shock tower area. Not sure yet.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

Fast 383 your car rocks.. love the way it sits!
huuumm..shock towers being a better mounting point and they agreed that it is...

GO FIGG..

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

so arctic, do your bars go through the floor onto your sfc's? if so, last i checked, that wasn't NHRA acceptable...

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

SFC's welded to body pan last.and part of the 6"x6" 1/8th steel plates under the car out side.. rollbar welded to body pan with plates on the inside. floor is all one piece. plates make it like a sandwich.. would not want to Cut holes in my car like that..
and the rules dont call for the 3rd gen to be like that anyway.

when i install the sidebars.they will fit the door handels and my legs.(shaped) they to will be on plates inside.
and plates outside under the car.(sandwich) and part of that plate will be welded to the SFC under the car. has the SFC i use are now part of the rocker panle.
when done this way it has More...structural rigidity...LOL

after all. one day. it just may be a Race Car. when its Fast.


LET US REFRESH:(ROLLBAR & ROLLCAGE) not the same.
The differences between a rollbar and a rollcage are the number of connections or points between the structure and the vehicle and the ability of the bar or 'cage to protect you from additional crash angles. Generally, the 'cage will have 8 to 10 or more points and the bar can have as few as 5. The 'cage will usually have a forward hoop that runs from the main hoop to two forward down bars. 'Cages might also have sill bars and dash bars and will need to be SFI certified and stickered every three years. For most classes, if your car runs faster than 9.99, you will need a 'cage. This NHRA illustration represents a typical rollbar designed for a car that has a stock firewall and floor and runs between 10.00 and 10.99.
remember: plates under the car also!
(how many have..LOL) they can be bolted in..and welded.as well.
and you can take a 6 point roll bar.. and turn it into a 8 point cage.. by installing the main hoop supports.(must have back bar see A below). if you car runs into the 9's add tubes if you must


and remember boys and girls.. if it's a rollbar car runs no lower the 10.0 then your side bar can swing out.. how Kewl is that!
below is a photo from this mag called "Car Craft"..
it shows a roll bar with swing out in there race car with a 5 point.and they say NHRA is ok with that...(2009)

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

You're darn right that can happen, that is why I think people should leave the rear crumple zone in these cars alone and not put bars there.

You get mad at me for making an assumption about your car and you start making assumptions about mine, Hello Pot, my name is Kettle.

Is this supposed to be a slam? You haven't seen my finished install yet, nor have you seen the cage yet, so you again are making accusations without even seeing the finished product. People like you are why I don't frequent this site as often as I used to. Your attitude sucks and your method of insulting people doesnt help anyone. You might think you are the car master, but I assure that very few of the rest of us do. I simply pointed out that putting bars in the back of the car is a bad idea, S&W racecars agree with me, as does anyone else that builds a cage for these cars and has common sense. Look at any of the third or fourth gens built for SCCA road racing and they don't have bars in the rear like that and that actually need a cage as opposed to most drag cars. I've also not heard from the other owner I quoted as well. I'm guessing he doesnt have any reason for putting the bars back there. A cage should tie in all of the places where the suspension can act on the chassis. That is spring and shock mounts, not the rear frame rails behind the axle. You can think what you want about how strong your chassis is, but I still disagree with you.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

1MeanZ
if.. it was a slam..i would PM you with it.. ill just say..

HOWS IT FEEL!! ...
stings. dont it!

son.. you need to grow up!
no matter how you try to slice it. your the one. with the words SILLY.
in your post.. silly is not a good thing..if you cant take it. dont try to dish it out!


YOU are the first one to sling poopoo.. REMEMBER THAT.

for you to BE Upset...is ...well SILLY.....

MotorMouth

I have to agree with 1MeanZ about the bars going all the way to the rear of the car. If your car is rearended that halo bar will knock you in the back of the head. I have never seen any race car ever built with the bars going all the way back to the bumper. If anyone is in your car and you get rearended and that bar harms them YOU will pay them too.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

YOU MADE no assumption.. you made a statment.. (SILLY)
they are not the same.. Just so you know.

even your reply shows how you need to look back in your Vet parts post.
and see how many Guys Give you crap. like you posting..
i never made any accusations... you did with ..silly
you sir, are the Pot and the Kettle

Just want to Bring that to Light..

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

articwhiteZ, I can't make heads or tails of your post. It obviously speaks volumes about you. 'nuff said...

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

IT'S OK that you can't make heads or tails of my post.
I UNDERSTAND. YOU have no clue
that you just called every thing alot of Guys are doing to there cars SILLY.

for you to BE Upset...is ...well SILLY...Grow Up..
i think i made it clear..

'nuff said

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i'm not really sure it's all too clear to me...the only thing that i've noticed in this last posting session between you two is that 1meanZ has posted logical statements that has roots based in physics, and arcticwhiteZ has done nothing but rant on about his awesome 120lbs of extra bracing. you can add 1,000,000lbs of bracing, but if it's in the wrong location, it'll be less effective than 1lb of bracing in the right location.

arctic, you need to grow up, and stop talking to people like they're children read, BOLD TYPING

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

S+W sell these bars as "Pro Street" bars. They are bent with the intentions of mounting in the lower rear trunk comartment to the frame rails. After they specified that to me they agreed it's not as valuable as mounting them over the shock towers. But the fact is they do make them that way so it's not crazy to have them mounted there. If I wasn't into researching things I do to my car I would have just had them put in there without a seconed thought. But I may try to have the Chassis shop re mount and cut them.

Point is you two are arguing about nothing. Your both right.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

Just so you know..i never have Knocked His car.. or his.. installing a IRS..
just flat ticks me off when guys do that.
and when they dont know what there talking about to start with..
thats even more of a pisser..must be Just Me..

so ill start off with
do not go and Get all bent out of shape.. ill just point this out to you..

and you guys. who Knock other guys cars.
(if you dont see Your doing it) im Feel sorry for you..you need to chill.
this site is open to all...and i dont like internet bullys who down play others guys cars even if they are to stupid to know there doing it.. talking to people like they're children is the only way to get them to understand is what it looks like. but then..who knows.

it's like this
did you mother ever tell you, if you dont have anything nice to say
Dont say anything. and if you do..
try to know what your talking about
you would look better .

expl:..awesome extra bracing, <<your words..Not mine.
SFC. are in the right place!
cross member that is welded to rocker panle is in the right place!
lift bars from rearend to cross member are in the right place!
roll bar is in the right place!
plates that hold roll bar to floor is in the right place.
plates under car are in the right place.
120 lbs ALL in the right place.
SIDE BARS NOT IN YET:
and when they are in. they will be in the right place..

for you to chime in and not know what your talking about..
well thats just..SILLY <<HIS word... now dont get all Huffy
if you did not know your bashing guys cars.. then Im sorry..
but all my bars up to this point are in the right place..thank you.

now pleas dont take it the wrong way.. if we all work to get along.
we could make it a better place. to get info..
it was just His mistake. to post. Silly.. after he got beat up on in His Post about installing His IRS.. My hats was off to Him and still is...
SOME of you guys just need to think a bit more before you Post..

we all have one thing we like the Camaro.. some times. we see things we would not do.. and some times we see things we like..
But to say things.. like. silly.. or. your car has a full 9.99 cage. but only runs 13's hahaha.. thats just not cool.. Think About it..

we try to help out others by giving info..
Just think about how your going to Give it..

MotorMouth

The problem I see many people doing is adding stuff like this that is meant for a car that has it's own lane, only goes straight and never has to worry about a car behind them. It's like the parking lot racers that think the stiffest shocks and sway bars mean the car will handle curves faster. A street car is an entirely different animal. I could care less what someone does to their car. I do care about giving false or dangerous information to someone that needs correct information.

That bar that is behind the seat and over your head is meant to stop the roof from crushing you incase of a rollover. It's not meant to protect the back of your car. If you do have a car hit you hard from behind it will most likely bend where you have the side bars, move forward and if your lucky give you a headache. On the other hand if your not lucky and the crash is hard enough it could take your head off.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

it would have to be a hard hit..the car would be a total loss im sure.
they are set up to protect you from additional crash angles. and that one will Leav a Mark..ouch!!

almosy all the bars i have seen in the last 30 years always left just about 4 feet from the back give or take and inch or 2.. with the 3rd gens you have alot of bady pan. to work with. i dont see a prob with installing the back bars above the gas tank onto rear deck if you wanted to.. that still leavs alot of crush room.. more then enof. going past the wheel wells might be pushing it.. but it would be a easy fix if they wanted to..
(wanted to) not have to. thats up to them..

i have never used the back seat it's never had anyone sit in it, ever..
so i dont need it.. will i take it out..no i like the way it looks. flat.. it easy to Vac off the Dust.. and you dont see the floor.. my seats are all the way back...i know ill be faster then it was.. and i would not pass tech
at a NHRA track that pushess the rules. 100%. ya make 2 or 3 low 10 sec runs and your done.. but the track in Spokane is a good old boy ran track.. every weekend it was. you need to add this Move that.but you still got to Race.
now with the new track. I have to upgrade. to pass tech.. move NOS fuel cell. add blow down tubes. and side bars.. always the same 3 things.

but they still let me run..8 years maby 100 passes.
it's more of a street car..and the track was running street racing.
keeps the guys/kids from racing on the street.. you would see alot of test and tune passes on cars without all there bars in them.. sorta in the works cars.. it's hard to get 2 cars with the back bars in the same place.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

Roll bars are nice an all, but I believe the thread title clearly stated roll cages.

Orangepeeler

iTrader: (2)

OK, I read most of this post. What you have to realize is that "crumple zones" and "roll cages" are designed for two entirely different puposes. I had my roll bar installed by a chassis builder who has won a "Best Engineered" award from the IHRA. He also sits on the SFI board for the NHRA. He definately knows about safety and structural integrity.
My rear bars are attached at the rear well and that is where he placed them. The argument for the rear impact protection is moot on roll cage installation. That is not it's designed purpose. It is not there to keep you safe in a rearend collision. It does not fall under crumple zone placement. It's just not a concern.
As far as the structural integrity issue. He did say that IF I were to want to put ALOT of power to the ground I would want to add an "X" from the main hoop to the shock towers. That would keep the rear of the chassis from flexing.
The problem with this whole thread is, from a "safety standpoint", there is nothing worse than putting people in the backseat surrounded by a metal rollcage! If you are rearended the impact of a head against a rollcage is more than likely going to cause a fatality.
Please understand that I am not trying to tell anyone how to build their car. I am only taking issue with the arguments within this thread.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

I would argue that he doesnt know much about safety and here is why. I am not confusing crumple zones and roll cages, the fact that you think that reveals to me that you don't understand fully what is going on here. What people are confusing is street use and track only use. If the car is a drag car only, put the tubes wherever you want. If it will be street driven at all, there is a risk of you getting into an accident and THAT IS THE PROBLEM. The rear of the car is designed to crumple up and absorb impact, just like the front is. When you put bars going all the way back to the rear frame rails, you've interrupted the crumple zone. So if you get hit in the rear and the car crumples as it is designed to, those bars will either bend or push the main hoop forward assuming the welds are good. I'm making a big deal of this because it is a safety issue. The last thing I want is someone getting on here and listening to your chassis expert, then getting injured because they drove the car on the street and were involved in an accident.

By the way orangepeeler, if your chassis expert said putting an X from the main hoop to the shock mounts was strongest, then why didn't he do it that way from the start?

I think people need to stop defending the method of back stays to the rear frame rails just because thats what they already have. (I see the only ones defending this method are the ones that have their roll bar that way) Everyone needs to take a fresh look at this and let some common sense prevail here. Its dangerous in a street car, period.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

x2.

I think the thing here is. "CAGE" n "BAR"

If the rear bars all the way back with just a "BAR" you have a greater risk of the main hoop buckeling over. if its a complete cage I think its gonna be a little better and resist the folding over.

Either way Its just asinine to even want to put somebody in the back seat with either cage or bar. ok so you get rear ended on the street. Their face eats the bar and shatters a few bones, knocks out a few teeth, etc.... I sure as hell wouldn't want to take that chance.

Orangepeeler

iTrader: (2)

I originally left the rear seat in the car making it impossible to install the "X" at the time. You continue to make reference to bars being installed in the "crumple" zone. What I was attmpting to say was, the cage and the "crumple" zone have two entirely different design intentions.
As was said before, build it how you like. Just know that if someone is going to ride in the backseat of a vehicle with a roll cage installed it could very well be their last ride.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

Murffys law..
Anything that can go wrong..Will go wrong.

then came the 6000lb suv doing 60mph

no Car is going to be safe..no matter with or with out Bars.

hes going to stop ..about the same place has your dash is now..
and thats going to leav a Mark!

look at some of the nascar crashes.. T bones and rear end Hits.
driver Box is A OK..some times a bit faster then 60mph to.

but thats a diff car altogether

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

yeah, that's definitely apples to oranges, a NASCAR style cage is completely different than a drag racing style bar or cage. even a 25.3 certed cage doesn't offer the side impact integrity that a NASCAR cage would.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

just saw this post the bar is OVER my head not against it so if i ever did get rearend the bar would go OVER my head IF the guy hit me at 50 and i DON'T drive this all the time so i'm not worried about how the bar is welded i built my car the way i wanted i didn't want to rip the rear seats out and weld to the shock area and those rear barsaren't to the back of the car they fold down to the sides of the well NOT in it and they are on the rear rails

CamKid1992

did you do this cage yourself? this is exactly what im looking for. if its not a custom fab where did you get it? if you did it want to make a trip to st. louis lol

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i built it using a competition engineering kit. i had to buy extra "over the seat" bars. i'm sure there are a bazillion guys in your area that can help you with your bar/cage. unfortunately with school really gearing up, i'm cutting back on all my sidework to nothing. i've turned 3 roll bar jobs down in the last 6 weeks...

sniperperforman

Ok I just wanted to try and see if i could help. i know im new on here, but i'v built alot of cages. I'm not trying to step on anyones toe's. All the kits from S&W,Comp Engineering ect. pretty much come with universall back bar's. you can trim to the fittment you want. yall are right and wrong. there no perfect way to do this, it all in the eye's of the owner. how ever the crush zone in the rear dose make a differance on the track. I had my 92 Z set up that way. I was at milan dragway and blew a ball joit half track. i spun bacward and slammed into the wall with my rear end. It did move the cage about 5 inches. But guys this is only preferance. to install one by the so called books would be to install them above the spring pockets, with a x brace. although there are alot of guys doing both. It dosen't matter. it adds weight and stiffins up the car alittle, but the weight to affectivness in my eyes, it just not worth the weightIv hand built alot of cage's/roll-bars/Tube chassis cars. mw66nova your is alot like mine but i bult mine to sfi 25.5 spec. the Comp engineering kit is a nice kit and can be made to fit well. nice job.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

So I have been contemplating a 4 to 6 point for a while now. The bit that concerns me is welding the down bars to the main hoop. Are you guy doing that with the cage in place? If so how? Those bars are tight. So everyon here is concerned about NHRA legalities and all that which is good but at the end of the day I just want a real solid structure to bilt my 5 point harness to so I can nail myself into my seat better when I am auto crossing and doing road course track days.

articwhiteZ

iTrader: (56)

getting side bars. to fit with the factry armrest. still in place. is sort of a trick.
lets see the side bars with arm rest shots...lol

sniperperforman

well the best way to do it all is to leave the rear hatch open, to fit your welding wirers through and vent smoke. put your interiour panels in place, be sure to protect them when weld a joint next or close to a panel. i use a peice of sheet metal about 2'X2'. dry fit your down pipe. when you have it where you want it mark the floor or spot on both ends. then weld you 6"X6" plate to the body over you mark. replace your down tube and tac-weld it. you whole cage should be tac-welded together for fittment reasons befor you to any final welding. i hope this helps. please pardon me im new to forums.

aqualordx93

where do you guys get your cages from? what website?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

summit, jegs, spohn, hawksthirdgenparts, lots of sources for these kits.

sniperperforman, thank you very much for the kind words. that's only the third rollbar i've built. it'll likely get cut out and replaced with a 10pt cage in the next season or so. i really need a bigger welder. i put that in with a 110 mig, and after reading some stuff about 110 migs producing cold welds and stuff, i'm pretty sure i need to redo with a bigger welder. i also think when i do my 10pt, i'm going to go with mild steel again. the weight difference is ~80-100pounds from what i've gathered, but i think the cost will outweigh the benefits.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

So how do you weld between the headliner and the top of the roll hoop. I consider myself handy with the steel, but that looks like and accident waiting to happen.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Are your rear bars "mounted" to the rear interior panels???

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

take the headliner, as well as the rest of the interior out, then there's more room up there than you think there is. mine are welded all the way around, and were welded that way with a mig torch

david068513

iTrader: (2)

Removable rear bar isn't legal on a track

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Thank you! this is what I wanted to know. I kinda figured but it looks like a trick to get the head liner in and out.

sniperperforman

Well If your using a mig welder then i would do like mw66nova said remove the head liner. If your tig welding then you have to use a hole saw about the same size as the tubing and cut a hole in the floor right under the tube, make your welds then raise the cage slip your 6"X6" plate between the floor and the tube. weld your plate then weld the tube to your plate. I hope this helps

sniperperforman

well i start use nothing more than a lincoln weld pack 155. works great it 220v and burns right in. For a street/strip car mild steel or DOM is just fine. I only use chrome molly on tube chasis's. or car's that the owner just wants to gain speed in every way possible. Just figure out haw fast your wanting to go and if your budget will handle it then. aim and shoot in that direaction. i just put a 14 mild steel in a 92 f-body and added some extra support and a front and mid plate support. i think the kit was a comp engineering kit and i added almost $50. in tubeing to make it stiffer.

DAVECS1

iTrader: (2)

Thanks, that is another awesome idea. I had not thought of that.

sniperperforman

I use both S&W's kits and comp engineering kits, If i use a kit and don't build from scratch. here's some links these are 10 points. Now my preferance is S&W. they activly race and desighn alot of suff.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-3226-K/
http://competitionengineering.com
http://www.swracecars.com/Files/pdf/CATpg18.pdf
http://www.swracecars.com

sniperperforman

Im glad i could help. And i wanted to so thanks for allowing me on here. i just got injured and have been out of the shop for about 1 week. i was going stir crazy this helps out alot.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

got any pics of your 25.5 cage?

sniperperforman

DAVECSI here's some pics to put it alittle more into prospective. are you planning on running at the track

sniperperforman

not right off hand im sure i could find them though. its been awhile. but i will find them for you

sniperperforman

this is a comp engineering kit. rear down bars over spring pockets. but you have to cut them down. they will go all the way to the rear to.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

^^haha, i'm not the only one to strap the main hoop to bring it in some.

what all is involved in the 25.5 certed cage?

sniperperforman

sniperperforman

well you have to run the x bars at the door. the frame can be modified, but not much. you have to have a dash bar. and if i remember seats have to be tie'd into the cage both rear and bottom seat brakets. i will have to double check that part.

sniperperforman

sniperperforman

mw66nova i found some one on here that had some pics you may be intersted in this is a 25.5 spec car. the only thing i see wrong with it is hes using tubing for gussets that get heavy really quick. i use plate gussets. i think the topic was 25.5 cert or something to the matter

http://www.kwikkarauto.com/Services/index.html