LTX and LSXPutting LT1's, LS1's, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects, including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
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After not being able to touch the project since March, finally got one of the things I wasn't looking forward to "done" (I hope).
Since this started as an auto car, made sense to me to go with the pedals from the donor car - which I don't have, just asked for the pedals when the engine/trans/harness/PCM was sent. Being a cable-clutch-era car, it made for some "interesting" situations.
There was a plugged hole, which I assumed was used for the clutch cable, that was "close". Mounted the pedal assembly temporarily w/o the brake MC there (had to remove the top bracket bolted to the pedal bracket), provided a template for the MC mounting. Drilled those holes, then opened up the now unplugged hole. There was another plug under the one I removed, which got in the way of the MC flange, so I ground off a little of the flange (didn't remove any supporting material).
When mounted the MC rod was straight, but was about the width of the pin short. Don't recall exactly where I saw this, but welded 3 3/8" x NF24 nuts together, cut the rod & threaded the two halves, added a lock nut on each end, and mounted. Now had full travel.
Had to modify the existing steering column support to clear the clutch pedal where it pivots up top. There was no existing place to mount the bracket that was removed, will see if any problems develop without it. Had to cover the MC hole above the MC where the existing firewall hole was uncovered.
Still have to get the clutch & brake switches hooked up, not sure if the 4th gen brake switch feeds the PCM for anything, or if I can just use the original 3rd gen switch. I don't have any of the donor car interior harnessing, so I'll have to figure out the clutch switches.
I took the 3rd gen brake switch out and put it in my 4th gen pedal assembly, as for the clutch switch when the motor was in the 6 cyl car, I ran some wires from the neutral safety switch plug at the original shifter to the clutch switch, worked like a charm. When the motor went into the GTA I got lucky and there was both a neutral safety switch and the plug that would go into the clutch pedal.
Lookin good man. Did you make the master cylinder adjustable? Or just added length to it? At the point that you are at now, with cutting the master rod and threading it, you could have very easily made it adjustable in case you want to make future adjustments.
Good work! The pedal were my LEAST favorite part of both my builds. Actually the entire clutch hydraulic system is proving to be a major pain in my rear....
I made the rod adjustable. The three center nuts were welded together while on a tap. The extra length needed was about the width of one nut, I figured this way I could adjust it to the original length, or out into the outer nuts. The nut on each end is a lock nut.
The pedal now bottoms the MC, which surprised me a little. The pedal travel between the stops should equal the MC travel, but the MC seems to be the lesser. Since I used the pedal bracket as the locater, I'm not quite sure why this is occurring.
It sounds like you added length to the throw of your master which is causing too much travel. When you said this above
Quote:
When mounted the MC rod was straight, but was about the width of the pin short.
I was curious then as to what this meant? If I follow correctly your saying that the master is bottoming out before your pedal hits the stop/floor so to speak yes?
As mounted with the rod untouched, the pedal had to be depressed in order to get the rod on the pedal pin. The distance was about the width of the pin, or the width of one 3/8" nut, which translated to over an inch at the pedal pad. After lengthening the rod so that it would mount on the pin with both the pedal and MC fully back (released), depressing the clutch pedal fully bottoms the MC before the pedal reaches the bottom (clutch released) stop & switch. With the MC disconnected, the pedal reaches that stop built into the bracket before it hits the floor (may change after I get the carpet back where it belongs).
The pedal bracket and MC bracket seemed to mount up to the firewall without deformation, but I may have been fooling myself there.
I saw posts about removing the MC stop to get more travel, but if I understood that properly, it's a bit of a risky proposition.
As mounted with the rod untouched, the pedal had to be depressed in order to get the rod on the pedal pin. The distance was about the width of the pin, or the width of one 3/8" nut, which translated to over an inch at the pedal pad.
So where did this leave the pedal in terms of its static position? Meaning at standstill with the master connected and no depressing of pedal just where it sat? Was it below the brake pedals static position? Above? Same?
With the unmodified rod, the pedal had to be depressed an inch or two to connect the rod to the pin. It was well away from the switch at the back of the bracket. I didn't connect the brake pedal (booster/MC removed during this phase of the operation), so I don't know where it sat with respect to the brake pedal.
With the lengthened rod, the clutch pedal sits full up against the bracket stop, depressing the switch on the back (not sure of which switch does what). The brake pedal, when connected to the stock 3rd gen set-up, is lower than the clutch pedal (which doesn't bother me; haven't bled the brake system yet, but seems it would have sufficient travel).
If the clutch pedal switch by the firewall (depressed position) is the neutral safety switch, I may have an issue because it may not be closing with the pedal depressed - haven't put a multimeter on it yet to see.
Ahh I see. Sounds like your in okay shape then. The top switch is the clutch anticipate switch. Its not needed to run an d drive but without it it'll burp and fart a little through the exhaust. Actually that seems to be one of the issues with LS engines is a little mid shift spit'n and sputter'n. I still dont have my anticipate hooked up I just havent been bothered enough by it and I have zero time to do anything to the car this year
Okay, I remember hearing about that now. I wondered if it disengages the cruise as well (which I don't have).
Sounds like I chose the wrong route. I should go for full MC travel, full pedal travel to the NSS, and not worry as much about the full up pedal position.
Thats the first Ive heard of the clutch anticipate switch being needed... I thought that was mostly for disengaging the cruise control. Interesting...
I put a multimeter on the NSS, which by the way is the same for thirdgens and 4th gens. It doesnt take much to close the switch. Because Im not getting full depression of that switch either. Should be enough. If not, I plan to put something on the little tab on the pedal so that it hits that switch better. Its an option for you too Or bend the tab.
Im going to get my pedal position and pedal throw where I want them, then worry about hitting the switches last. Easier to deal with them than the hydraulics.
I'm starting to think bottoming the MC is worse than having the MC limit the return travel. Might shorten the rod to eliminate that, then adjust the anticipate switch to compensate. The NSS tab looked too substantial to easily bend, but I'll have to look at it again.
I found some info over at LS1tech about the anticipate switch. Apparently some guys use it for nitrous cut off and other gack. I dont have a tuning suite so it dont mean jack to me but maybe down the road I'll look into it further
I wasn't brave enough to disassemble the MC - the drill mod was all I worked up the nerve for. Not sure how the piston stops in the bottom of the bore, a little afraid of damaging it by using it for the pedal stop.
The piston stops at the bottom via a cone shaped metal stopper. Looks like a traffic cone sorta. I wouldnt want that to be the only thing stopping the pedal, especially if you are really banging down on that pedal.
Thats the stop.
If you havent seen this write up, it shows you the disassembly and the insides of the MC, as well as a write up for making it adjustable.
For what its worth. I had a RAM adjustable master. It was leaking, so I bought a stock one, and took it apart, and installed the RAM adjustable rod into it. I took note, when taking the RAM unit apart, that the stop was not cut or modified.... Just a tid bit of info. SO I didnt modify the stop in mine when I swapped the rod.
I agree I dont think I'd want to be bottoming out the master for two reasons. 1. the way I smash that pedal it would probably disintegrate in no time 2. I'd be worried about displacing too much fluid to the slave and damaging the slave and or the pressure plate from over extension. Try the marker trick and verify master cyl piston travel is an easy way to see if your moving the rod too much or not enough
No, I hadn't seen that write-up. Thanks. They used a coupling nut instead of my welded nuts, with just one end tightened for the lock feature - not sure I'd trust that. Another member used a lock nut. I don't think I like the nut all the way up by the eye end, either - too much possibility for interference.
I'll try the travel verification and adjust the stops as much as possible.
I just finished the under-dash wiring, including the NSS. It does engage with the pedal depressed.
I haven't done anything with the anticipate switch. It has 3 terminals on it, I haven't taken the time to digest what each is. I wouldn't mind using it for a rev limiter, if/when I obtain that capability.
