LTX and LSXPutting LT1's, LS1's, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects, including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
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I suppose I should have started this sometime in January. Oh well. Never too late right?
The project:
1987 Pontiac Trans Am GTA
5.7 TPI engine w/700r4
Original goal:
Fix the parking brake...
In the summer of 2007, I decided that I wanted to drive my GTA again (after a year hiatus). I stripped the inside of the car and did a full second skin installation (sound deadening) and replaced all of the weatherstripping. The car was ready to drive again! This necessitated an inspection....and the parking brake failed. No problem right? We tried it all, and I eventually resorted to taking it into a shop. No dice. I ended up with a parking brake that barely worked - and then the car failed emissions when they said they felt sorry for me and the parking brake. So - it began.
I order a conversion kit from Ed Miller (ebMiller on the boards) to convert the iron rear brakes of the car to the 89+ PBR style (with some nice fat rotors!).
Here's the wonderful old setup. I would later find out that the rear calipers were shot. Oh well - new brakes will be better than fixed irons anyway.
Removing the rear like this got me to thinking...we're awfully close to that gas tank. Wouldn't it be nice if we could put a nice 4th gen plastic tank in there?
Sure it would!
At this point, I was beginning to wonder how a new gas tank was going to solve my emissions issues. I didn't really want to spend alot on the L98...it had 168,xxx miles - a rebuild is in the $1300 range. No thanks.
A local member came to the rescue in sourcing what I'd always wanted in the car - a low mileage 2001 LS1 from a Camaro:
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Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 08-09-2008 at 12:09 AM.
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LS1 swaps in thirdgens are getting common - so there's alot of reading out there to help you find part numbers, step by step instructions, and even price lists. Several of the things I've decided to try with this car have been asked about before and not recommended. I may eventually come to those conclusions as well, but this car is a fun project for my father and I - so making mistakes in judgment in the name of learning is perfectly OK.
With that said - here's something I've seen only mentioned by one member here:
Original 4th gen fuel pump + Universal 0-90 ohm fuel sender from Summit = working fuel tank level. Keep in mind this hasn't been tested, but it should work. We had to shave all the extra plastic off that side of the fuel tank bucket and all the extra plastic we could off of the fuel sender - and even clearance the fuel pump opening on the tank with a file... but she's installed in the car and should work dandy! Your mileage may vary - but I couldn't see mucking with modifying a GM sender when this route was available.
Please excuse the fuzzy pictures. My cellphone was the only camera available for a while.
Next on the list... 700r4 with your LS1. Not recommended, but doable.
I did alot of reading prior to deciding on this. My 700r4 was rebuilt less than 10k miles ago - so why not try?
From my reading, I found that I would need:
* A TV cable setup
* A flywheel/flex plate to mount the trans to the engine
* A non-electronic torque converter lockup mechanism
A little more reading yielded
* Bowtie Overdrives makes a TV cable setup to fit the LS1 intake (*** it only works with 98-99 style throttle body throttle cams - round not oval)
* Several options here. I ended up using the TCI flexplate #399753 that has the dual bolt pattern. You'll also need the crank spacer and extended bolts from GM (12563532 and 12553332 respectively).
* TCI makes these as well - completely vacuum operated. In retrospect, I'm not sure if I really needed this as I'm not 100% certain how the TPI engine controlled lockup, but oh well.
While talking to the guy I bought my LS1 from, he recommended I get a Constant Pressure Valve Body for my 700r4 so that I wouldn't burn it up. This perplexed me, but some reading on the subject basically goes that improper TV cable adjustment will burn your transmission up due to not enough line pressure being used when switching gears. Made sense, so I got a new valve body.
Last thing to think about when using a 700r4 with the LS1 is your dipstick tube. The bolt hole that is used to hold it in place happens to be the one that isn't used when bolting the trans up to the LS1. We came up with a solution to that - but most go with a universal dipstick.
On to the pics:
I won't show the in progress pics, as I didn't take any. I was a bit preoccupied with putting this thing back together and not losing anything. C clips are the devil.
After getting everything buttoned up, I really wanted to test fit the engine to the transmission. Everything I read only said that the TCI flywheel/flexplate was "all that you needed" when doing this kind of thing. I had prior ordered the crank spacer and bolts thinking I'd modify a 5.3 flywheel and never could find one. I ended up with a combination.
The TCI flexplate comes with a built-in spacer for use with the LS1 style transmissions (4L60e being one). It comes off and gives room to use the GM crank spacer, as shown here.
After putting the spacer in place, the flexplate can be mounted with the extended bolts. Here you can see the TCI spacer that we removed to use the GM crank spacer. I'm going to keep this just in case the 700r4 goes south and a 4L60e takes its place one day.
We had to use an aftermarket throttle body with interchangable throttle cams so that we had the round shape of the 98-99 cam in order to use the Bowtie Overdrives TV cable setup. Even then a grinder had to clearance some of the Bowtie Overdrives setup as the cam sat too close to the water pump - I'll take some pics next time I'm at the car.
Lastly, we think we've avoided having to get an aftermarket dipstick tube setup. We tapped and threaded the unused bolt hole and are going to secure the dipstick with a short bolt.
Time will tell how well this setup works. But I have high hopes.
Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 08-09-2008 at 12:06 AM.
Reason: spelling
I read about the FBody Motorsports version and didn't want to go that route. Notching my K-Member seemed doable but I had just had the entire A/C system redone and had an AC Delco compressor put on. Alot of searching the internet led me to the CovetteForum. A guy there made his own conversion plate setup and it includes a tensioner. He had a friend of his use the setup on a 3rdgen car and it worked for him - so I bought a set. He has great pictures on that link if you're curious of the quality. I'll include some pictures to show how it sits in my car right now (engine is in for test fitting all the coolant/fuel/power steering lines and electrical). Overall - the quality is top notch. I do believe that I'm going to have to have custom A/C lines made though. I'll update whenever that occurs (which will most likely be after the engine is running). Yet another option!
And lastly... just how the car sits now:
Currently waiting on:
* Speartech Harness
* Random exhaust & fuel line parts
* Another free weekend with my dad
I didn't realize, a 700R4 would fully bolt up to a LS1. My freshly rebuilt tranny is the main reason I've strayed away from a LS1 swap. Didn't wanna give up my fresh tranny.
Thanks for the props guys. As far as I know, the 98-02 v6 sensor will not work. Feel free to dig up a thread that says otherwise though.
Does anybody know where to get some new motor mount bolts (the long ones - one each side)? I bought a set at the local auto parts store and they're too short. I have Hawks mounts if that makes a difference.
Went back and read that thread cam- good find on the 0-80 ohm setup from that year cars. Time will tell if the 0-90 is what works in this car (didn't ohm the stock setup - maybe I will next time I'm down). That is definitely another option!
Been working little bits on the car. Engine and transmission are both in as of a month ago. They were put in as one unit - from the top . Is it a pain? yep. Is it possible? Absolutely. There were only two of us... We've started to mount the external vss and hook the driveshaft back up. Spent most of today hunting odd little parts - who knew ground straps were a "uh what's that?" at local parts stores nowdays...
Another oddity with my swap - we'll be using the original cruise control. Got the original cable hooked up today. Neato.
If you guys want any pictures of anything specific - chime in. We'll be working on it again Friday with good light. Otherwise I'll just take some random ones. Happy Thanksgiving!
Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 11-26-2008 at 07:25 PM.
Spent most of today hunting odd little parts - who knew ground straps were a "uh what's that?" at local parts stores nowdays...
Well, you ARE in Houston... (Sorry man {and no offense!!}, but I lived down there for a little while...)
Gotta say though, if someone behind the counter said that to me, I'd probably stand there with my jaw dropped for at least 10 seconds - and then talk to the manager...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.1EyeCandy
Happy Thanksgiving!
And a Happy Thanksgiving to you, & everyone here...
LS1 swaps in thirdgens are getting common - so there's alot of reading out there to help you find part numbers, step by step instructions, and even price lists. Several of the things I've decided to try with this car have been asked about before and not recommended. I may eventually come to those conclusions as well, but this car is a fun project for my father and I - so making mistakes in judgment in the name of learning is perfectly OK.
With that said - here's something I've seen only mentioned by one member here:
Original 4th gen fuel pump + Universal 0-90 ohm fuel sender from Summit = working fuel tank level. Keep in mind this hasn't been tested, but it should work. We had to shave all the extra plastic off that side of the fuel tank bucket and all the extra plastic we could off of the fuel sender - and even clearance the fuel pump opening on the tank with a file... but she's installed in the car and should work dandy! Your mileage may vary - but I couldn't see mucking with modifying a GM sender when this route was available.
Please excuse the fuzzy pictures. My cellphone was the only camera available for a while.
Next on the list... 700r4 with your LS1. Not recommended, but doable.
I did alot of reading prior to deciding on this. My 700r4 was rebuilt less than 10k miles ago - so why not try?
From my reading, I found that I would need:
* A TV cable setup
* A flywheel/flex plate to mount the trans to the engine
* A non-electronic torque converter lockup mechanism
A little more reading yielded
* Bowtie Overdrives makes a TV cable setup to fit the LS1 intake (*** it only works with 98-99 style throttle body throttle cams - round not oval)
* Several options here. I ended up using the TCI flexplate #399753 that has the dual bolt pattern. You'll also need the crank spacer and extended bolts from GM (12563532 and 12553332 respectively).
* TCI makes these as well - completely vacuum operated. In retrospect, I'm not sure if I really needed this as I'm not 100% certain how the TPI engine controlled lockup, but oh well.
While talking to the guy I bought my LS1 from, he recommended I get a Constant Pressure Valve Body for my 700r4 so that I wouldn't burn it up. This perplexed me, but some reading on the subject basically goes that improper TV cable adjustment will burn your transmission up due to not enough line pressure being used when switching gears. Made sense, so I got a new valve body.
Last thing to think about when using a 700r4 with the LS1 is your dipstick tube. The bolt hole that is used to hold it in place happens to be the one that isn't used when bolting the trans up to the LS1. We came up with a solution to that - but most go with a universal dipstick.
On to the pics:
I won't show the in progress pics, as I didn't take any. I was a bit preoccupied with putting this thing back together and not losing anything. C clips are the devil.
After getting everything buttoned up, I really wanted to test fit the engine to the transmission. Everything I read only said that the TCI flywheel/flexplate was "all that you needed" when doing this kind of thing. I had prior ordered the crank spacer and bolts thinking I'd modify a 5.3 flywheel and never could find one. I ended up with a combination.
The TCI flexplate comes with a built-in spacer for use with the LS1 style transmissions (4L60e being one). It comes off and gives room to use the GM crank spacer, as shown here.
After putting the spacer in place, the flexplate can be mounted with the extended bolts. Here you can see the TCI spacer that we removed to use the GM crank spacer. I'm going to keep this just in case the 700r4 goes south and a 4L60e takes its place one day.
We had to use an aftermarket throttle body with interchangable throttle cams so that we had the round shape of the 98-99 cam in order to use the Bowtie Overdrives TV cable setup. Even then a grinder had to clearance some of the Bowtie Overdrives setup as the cam sat too close to the water pump - I'll take some pics next time I'm at the car.
Lastly, we think we've avoided having to get an aftermarket dipstick tube setup. We tapped and threaded the unused bolt hole and are going to secure the dipstick with a short bolt.
Time will tell how well this setup works. But I have high hopes.
I have a fully built 700R4 in my father in laws 84 LS1 swap camaro (check my post for pics) and it's been going strog for the past two years+, i also used a B29H/S High stall converter for it as well, only about a 2-300 RPM jump from the regular B29's, and bowtie overdrives kick down setup works great too.
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by SheldonZ28
Any updates on this?
functioning properly?
Another thing you can do which is what i did was get a sending unit for I think a 96-97 Grand Prix fuel tank and use that it's pretty close. Do some research on here about it. I'm sure you'll find it.
Last edited by Diabloformula; 12-21-2008 at 09:46 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Not alot to update (yet). We've got all accessories attached to the engine, engine + transmission in the car, all underbody work done. I'm still debating where to get my ignition power from as it basically needs a 40A source under the dash...and the extra locations on the factory fuse block are only rated up to 35A...
Well...I remembered I had some more pictures of the last time I worked on the car. These show some interesting bits.
Part of the fun of using the 700r4 is figuring out how to get an accurate speedometer reading. I went with the differential-mounted external VSS from Jags that Run. Unfortunately, the bracket they send is not meant to work with the 9 bolt Borg Warner rear common in these GTAs...so we took a grinder to it:
We eventually had to grind a bit more off...and drill another hole. It was pretty nerve racking drilling a hole in the differential for this to fit the way I wanted. But it turned out fine:
We ran all of the pertinent cables to the throttle body (still need to secure the throttle cable at the firewall though...the washer I put on was a bit too big to keep it snug). Here you can see the BowTie Overdrives piece, the aftermarket throttle body, and what we did to maintain the usage of the FACTORY third gen cruise ..
Lastly, here's how we left her. In this photo you can see alot...custom AC bracket from Josh Powers, throttle setup, aftermarket power steering pump, and belt routing. Also shown is a glimpse of what we're doing with the steam line:
All of these photos are hosted on a Picasa Web Album - so feel free to click one and find some other pics I've never included here. Gotta love Google.
Last edited by 3.1EyeCandy; 12-27-2008 at 09:54 AM.
Not alot to update (yet). We've got all accessories attached to the engine, engine + transmission in the car, all underbody work done. I'm still debating where to get my ignition power from as it basically needs a 40A source under the dash...and the extra locations on the factory fuse block are only rated up to 35A...
I assumed that by showing pictures of an engine yet to be run - it would make sense that I hadn't tested the fuel level sender yet...
I'm using the external VSS so that the ecm has an accurate signal. The ecm then outputs to the speedometer. Alternatively, you can run the external setup for the ecm and also run the 700r4 original VSS for the speedo. Should work out dandy and I'll have one less wire running from the tranny.
I think you can program or have the LS1 ECM programmed to accept a VSS signal from a standard 700R4 VSS. The LS1 PCM usually expects a 40 pulse per revolution VSS signal, while the 700R4 would output a 4000 pulse per mile signal...
At any rate, I have not heard of anyone who has actually done this... I asked a mail order programmer via e-mail and they said it was doable. I would welcome any confirmation or refutation though...
-1989 Camaro with a 305 TPI, soon to be 6.0L LSx. -1985 Camaro with a 350 TPI, probably gonna stay that way. At least until I'm done with the other one...
Yep - ls1 ecm expects 40 pulse per driveshaft revolution, while the 700r4 outputs 4000 pulse per mile. From everything I've read on the subject, it's doable via HPTuners - but not recommended. If your tuner shop uses EFILive, the variable doesn't go that low. If you choose not to use a vss at all in your setup, you'll have issues with stalling at low speeds.
To me - the extra resolution provided by the original style vss over the 700r4 one (if it actually is possible - haven't found anybody that's done it and bragged about it) is worth it. Do the numbers...it's a huge change. Having an original style vss was a small price to pay for not having any potential for stalling...or dragging it in to get tuned and finding out they couldn't use my vss signal.
Oh, yeah, I totally agree. The 40ppr setup is definitely the better choice. I just kinda wanted to sneak that in there, to get some other opinions on it. I am considering doing the 700R4 VSS for my swap, just for cost cutting reasons. If I can't get my hands on a 4L60E for under $350 by the time I'm ready to drop in the motor, I'll just go with the 700R4 and it's VSS. The first phase of my swap is just to get it driving for as cheap as possible, then when I'm ready to do some performance mods I'll make some revisions...
On another subject, are you using the stock transmission crossmember?
Sure am. Looks like it was meant to be there. I had to do some creative cutting on the dust shield though... Looks great from the bottom but I really had to open it up around the starter (and my TCI flexplate).
We'll have to see how well it works...haven't mocked it up yet. We modified the coil pack bracket to allow the last pack to swivel and sit up higher. I believe another member has done this...
I'll get pics here in a week when I work on the car again.
Big thing is, remember that the LS1 PCM has to have a signal coming from the tranny VSS to detect that it's even in the transmission or you'll probably end up with a SES light for the VSS.
I don't understand what you're saying Klortho. The VSS (now matter where it's located) outputs a certain pulse per mile signal for the ECM. As long as I am supplying the appropriate pulse per mile...what difference does it make where it is coming from? The signal doesn't carry any marker denoting that it is coming from inside the transmission...
Please explain. This method has worked for a couple guys on ls1tech, and it's made sense thus far.
I don't know if the LS1 PCM will pick up the VSS that you're using as a piece for a 4L60E transmission and throw the SES as not being there, unless the one you're using is a GM unit that just goes into a bracket.
I don't know if the LS1 PCM will pick up the VSS that you're using as a piece for a 4L60E transmission and throw the SES as not being there, unless the one you're using is a GM unit that just goes into a bracket.
As far as I know, the VSS just outputs a simple A/C sine wave (don't quote me on the A/C part, I'm not positive about that part). There is no encoding or embedded signal to identify it as a "GM VSS." As long as his VSS emits the proper voltage sine wave there should be no problems.
Here you can see the clearance between the coil pack and the AC box. We took a grinder to the AC box to give us as much room as we could...and I'm using truck spark plug wires to get the extra length needed to reach up to the coil in it's new position.
It's really hard to see, but I've got about 1cm clearance here - which should be enough.
If you're looking to duplicate, here's the AC box after we hacked it up. That transmission dipstick is the original 700r4 tube. Tight fit - but it works fine.
Here's a shot of the passenger side using the truck wires:
Made some progress this weekend. I'm thinking after next weekend it will be ready for a trip to ARD to get the exhaust built and a tune...and a startup! Most of my pictures turned out blurry - but we mainly worked on finishing some electrical connections, hooking up the transmission oil cooler lines (we made our own since I lost the factory ones...anybody have a set of originals they want to get rid of? They'd probably fit better...), and planning where to route the heater core diverter valve. Also finished up the throttle body coolant bypass.
We worked for a few hours this last weekend, but I took some pictures of current state and thought to post. We started by trying the stock 2001 upper and lower radiator hoses on my combo (ls1 + 3rd gen radiator)....this doesn't fit. Others have apparently managed to massage the lower hose on, but I couldn't see spending that much time and frustration - there had to be a better way. The upper (stock 2001 w/out the power steering cooler) wasn't long enough.
So, thirdgen to the rescue. These are the numbers you need:
Upper: Gates #20893 (Early 4th gen Camaro w/v6)
Lower: Gates #21505 (83-90 Ford F-250 and F-350)
The upper fit fine, but looked a little more factory after trimming an inch off the radiator side. The lower...looked twice the size as the 2001 camaro unit and I honestly thought I'd paid good money for a part I was going to throw away. Never the less I trimmed it where I thought it might help. This was all that I trimmed...
And boy does it fit great!
I figured out my vacuum routing and should plum that together in a few weeks. Fans are wired up as well. We had to make a new battery cable - as the six foot stocker wasn't quite long enough to reach the driver's side battery tray. I was a bit disappointed that more wasn't completed, but progress is progress.
Thanks for looking guys. This has been a fun project and I couldn't have done it without all the help I've received here! Let's hope for some startup video in a month or so
So - I ordered a newer wiper motor off ebay, got the pigtails from Hawks, and will be picking up a new pump motor sometime in the not-so-distant future. Here's the wiring differences:
So...this is the easiest wiring out of the whole swap so far I put this in electronics as well, but the ls1 swap crowd will probably use it the most.
Finished what little was left before the trip to have her tuned and started. I started out Easter weekend by changing the oil to synthetic and filling up the coolant...only to have my Dad tell me a few minutes later that I had a coolant leak under the car. Initial panic had me questioning this whole swap...but we found out it was only leaking from the water pump. A trip to NAPA and a day later, she's got a new water pump!
For informational purposes - the thermostat and housing come as one unit.
My prior plans included keeping the thirdgen cruise control - and I'd still like to. I had thought that I could use the buffer box to take the computer speedometer output and split it up into a 4000 and a 2000 ppm signal (one for the speedo and one for the cruise). What I didn't take into account was that the buffer box has both the yellow and purple wires from the original vss...and I'm not sure if only hooking up 1 wire from the computer would be safe/beneficial/functional. So - out came the cruise. I hear there's a setup from trucks that will work, time to search.
I'll let the pictures of how she sits now do the talking. I've got a full UMI suspension, Eibach pro-kit, and Bilstein HDs ready for her once she's running. Gotta get rid of that wheel gap!
Does anybody have any information about how they mounted their ecm under the dash?
Well - she's in the capable hands of Advanced Racing Dynamics (ARD) now. Washed the car, removing 2 years of dust, and loaded it on the trailer. We ran into 2 minor hiccups so far: my parking brake light is stuck on, and the fuel level sender doesn't seem to be working (showing 100% full on the gauge). Here are some pics:
Clean again!
Loaded up:
Unloaded at ARD:
I've requested that they take pictures as they make progress, so hopefully I'll have something to update with in the coming days. This is exciting stuff
How are you controlling lockup since the LS1 PCM doesnt
I am using a TCI 700r4 lockup controller kit. I got it from Summit (http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku). Along with this, I am using the factory provided normally open 12v power that closes when you press the brake - so all should be good (or at least as close as it can be)
. Is it a pain? yep. Is it possible? Absolutely. There were only two of us... We've started to mount the external vss and hook the driveshaft back up. Spent most of today hunting odd little parts - who knew ground straps were a "uh what's that?" at local parts stores nowdays...
(Sorry man {and no offense!!}, but I lived down there for a little while...) 
