I guess I'll be joining in this madness, I just bought an LQ4. It's from an '01, with 135,000 miles on it. I'm not going to just install it, however. Expect to see pics of trying to make the truck oilpan work, even if it means some cutting and welding. Also expect to see a head swap for more compression, although not great-flowing heads just yet. I'm at high altitude, so milled LS1 heads will give me a full ratio of static compression. I am flip-flopping on cam choice, but I will be changing the cam. Most definitely something that can pull 6500 rpm, while being able to pass a tailpipe sniffer. And since the heads will be off, I'l have a chance to drill those oil drain holes into the plastic lifter guides. I assume the truck pan is too deep, but if it doesn't clear the crossmember, I'll be looking at the crossmember as subject to change. A tubular aftermarket one would be sweet, and may come eventually, but will not be part of the initial build. So I may notch, then reinforce the stock crossmember if necessary. Assuming the oil pan must come off, I'll be installing ARP rod bolts so I can turn it 6500 rpm instead of stopping at 6000. The engine is being shipped, it should be here by Friday night, so pics after then.

Boy, does this sound familiar. . .

You might want to consider changing out the pistons instead of fussing with the heads. 317's are identical to 243's except for chamber size. Perfect opportunity for the ARP rod bolts as well.

The truck pan hangs down too far. That's why you need to go to an f-body pan/pick-up.

What plans do you have for the accessories and intake?

I think I wasn't clear enough. I'm definitely going to cut and weld the pan if it does hang too low to suit me. If the front end of the sump is too far forward, that means I'll also alter the stock crossmember. I'm not looking to change the shape of the truck pan, only the depth if needed. I'll be documenting if the cutting and welding ends up being cheaper than spending hundreds for a new pan at the local dealership. As for accessories, I have '00 Z28 intake and exhaust manifolds I bought from a friend. The LS1 Camaro alternator bracket and brace and bolts can all be had new for right at $80. I suspect the truck alternator will fit that bracketry. A/C: NOT happening. Transmission: I'm hoping to adapt a TR3650 from an '03-'04 Mustang GT, using the hydraulic slave from an '05-'06 Mustang GT, which used a slightly different version of the TR3650.

BTW, the ports are identical, true, but the combustion chambers aren't just a different volume, they're a different design. Set up the 243s, the 317s and the 241s, and view them from 20 feet away, you will be able to tell the 243s, but you'll swear the other 2 are identical. I'd love to have forged pistons, but I already have a good used pair of 241 heads. I'd like to try to fit the truck intake under this hood:
http://www.americansportscar.com/images/s-290.jpg

Few things here to point out, not meanin to rain on your parade.

1. Truck pan welding idea, you might as well forget about. Save yourself alot of hassle and go to buy a F-body pan. Based on that fact that the car will be subjected to speed, with a shallow pan, you NEED baffling, which is not just randomly placed peices of metal. The baffling in a pan is quite sophisticated to prevent oil starvation. Trucks need not worry about baffling for 2 reasons. 1. trucks arent able to acellerate like a car and force oil to the back of the pan, and 2, truck pan is deep enough that unless you have next to no oil, even if it rocks to the back, it wont starve the pickup. The F-body pan is exactly the height of the stock crossmember and is baffled, so its definately a need. Beyond this, the trucks sump is short, the f-body sump is atleast 1.5" longer, so you will have 0 interference issues, but you will have oil capacity problems. Likely less then 4qts. To further this, welding a used oil pan is nearly impossible. Its cast aluminum which means it pourous, and oil will be hidden in teh poors, making welding of the pan nearly impossible unless its jet washed. This is the reason any companys that mod pans, will start with new pans. Used f-body pans cost $150-200. Much cheaper then replacing your bottom end when you starve it for oil.

2. Your alternator idea will not work. The truck alternator will physically bolt into the bracket, but its MUCH larger then the f-body one and hits the steering. Trust me, i tried this.

3. The truck intake needs a min 4" cowl to fit in, and your alternator wont fit under the hood if its in the stock truck position. You'd need a mega wide/tall cowl to fit alternator and truck intake.

4. DONT do the 1 rod bolt at a time way of doing the rod bolts. You stress the rod cap in the center and it no longer will seat 100% correctly, and if your lucky you will get a couple hundred miles since the rod bolts spin. Ive seen a coworker learn the hardway, by doing the 1 bolt method, and ruining a customers crank/rod. You need to pull the rod up, and check your clearances then do the correct torque procedure.

5. For 317 vs. 243. The combuston chambers arent entirely different design, the 243's are a D chamber, so they loose a bit of the circle to reduce volume, but the actual heart chamber is the same design and will burn identically.

6. Truck waterpump will not work, it aims the coolant outlet at the hood. You need a f-body forward pointing pump.

7. For a cam, look into the comp cams XR275HR-12. Its a 222/224 cam. I have one in my 97 trans am right now w/ a 6.0L. It makes over 410rwhp, with PRC LS6 heads/FAST intake/ full bolt ons and pass's ontario sniffer (Same as cali) with only magnaflow bullet cats and deleted EVAP, EGR, AIR

8. For your transmission, the mustang and f-body have different input splines IIRC, and they have adversely different bellhousings, not to mention a f-body clutch master is a pretty special shape.


Hope that sheds some light for you. Ive been down the exact road you are on now a couple years ago, and tried EVERYthing i could to make the truck stuff work. No dice, save your self the hassle and buy the correct LS1 spec parts.

I think your overthinking alot of this, and its going to lead to alot more money then just doing the tried and true methods. T56's will take a ton of power, and bolt right in. F-body accessories, bolt on and make it easy for hoses, and clearance. F-body intakes bolt on, no clearance issues etc etc etc.

Let me know if you got any questions, ive got pictures for my alternator/intake fitment problems, acc fitment problems etc if you want to see them

I appreciate you taking the time to share so much, and be so candid. I will take your word on the alternator. I think I can get one from an '03 4.3 that's small but will bolt to the LQ4 bracket, so it should bolt to the Camaro bracket. As for the combustion chambers, I have had all three heads I mentioned, on the same table at the same time, the 243 chamber is obviously best, and the 317 chamber is just an enlarged 241 chamber.
The waterpump: It's far enough below the hood for a tight-radius 90-degree elbow of some sort, so I'll play with this a bit. For the cam, how does it do in sixth gear, between 1000-1700 rpm? On the TR3650, I found one with just 3900 miles, for $500, with a 30 day warranty that starts the day of installation, not the day of purchase. I found a 1/8" steel adapter plate for $90, and I hope to use the Camaro master clutch cylinder with the Mustang slave. I expect some mix and match of Ford clutch disc and GM flywheel and pressure plate. I don't want the truck intake, except I'd feel stupid running that hood I love so much, but having no need for it to clear anything. The truck intake really doesn't belong in this build, but it's not that much worse than the '00 LS1 intake I have, and until I can afford the FAST 92mm, it makes the hood seem necessary to my friends who don't really know cars.
Again, I thank you for saving me a few hassles, and please report on how that cam does in sixth, between 1000-1700 rpm. TIA.

the truck alternator works on my car with fbody brackets. only problem with mine is i ordered the spohn kmember with the braces and the stud coming out of the back that goes to the starter is about 5mm away from the brace. my steering clears fine...

The truck alternator in my iroc-z hit the pitmal arm when wheels were locked all the way to the left. Also the terminal touched the k-member brace.

F-body alternator was like $115, so i decided id go with that since it was designed to fit, the right size pulley and it would save me hassle.

As for the waterpump, if you want to run a LS1 intake, you must run a LS1 waterpump, as the upward facing neck hits the intake. Your only other option is boring a hole into the boss on the front of the waterpump and pulling other neck to move it to forward facing spot and then welding up the top.

Do you remember if you were using a 105 or 145 amp truck alt?

Okay, I got the LQ4 last night, and looking at it, I think there is hope for using the truck water pump with the Camaro intake. I'll do a test fit sometime today, even though it's brutally cold outside. 18 degrees F. I'll post a pic of that.

Here's a teaser:

i believe that you can use the truck water pump but you have to cut the snout way down.

I got pics, I'll get them up. But for now, I give in on the oil pan, because I'd have to add kick-outs. On the water pump issue, I refuse to modify that until I try spacing the TB forward. It may take a 2" spacer, but I'll try it.

I suppose you could use the truck water pump with a passenger car intake/TB if you machined that front boss for the upper radiator hose outlet and pulled out and plugged the truck outlet. I have considered that for my LQ4/L92/L76 combo I've got planned for the '57.

^^ yep thats what i had mentioned earlier. It'd be a bit of work, and in the end you might as well grab a used f-body pump for $50.

As for your intake spacer, you do realize its not going to be a simple spacer. You need one flat surface to meet the intake, along with another machined groove for a 2nd gasket to seal the TB to the spacer. You also need to have a cavity for the idle flow hole, and have all of that fit in. Again, more trouble then its worth.

Would need to be a longer version of this:



That gasket there sits into a machined groove.

Combined with the fact that the tube is going to completely throw off the harmonic's of the intake and therefore limit the engine's original power band, and possibly reducing power.

The idea of a LSx swap in a thirdgen is to take advantage of all the benefits of a later motor and adapting it to an old chassis, but if you take away all these benefits because you dont want to invest money in your car basically makes the swap pointless.

The Design of these intakes is VERY complicated and is far more then just a cavity for air to get drawn from. The LS series motors use a tuned runner length that work with the frequency generated within the intake to make the air want to flow efficiently into the combustion chamber. By introducing a TB extension you may be altering the way the air resonates within the intake and throw off its balance and ability to make power.

Same with oil pans, the oil pans are far more then just a metal oil storage bin. They are very highly engineered with complicated baffling in them. A corvette batwing pan is more then just open wings in them, it is still completely baffled inside, so you fabricating your own batwing pan isnt going to benefit you.

Just run a f-body pan, and if you arent willing to change the pump, then convert to electronic throttle cause then the controller is on the opposite side and you wont have interference issues.

Sheldon

The "problem" is you can't just replace one accessory with these engines. If you change the water pump, you also have to change the damper and accessory brackets. Change the brackets and you have to change alt/PS pump, etc.

The advantage for me personally using the truck accessories is I'm only planning on running alternator and water pump. The truck alternator is up and out of the way of the steering and frame. Since I'm planning on running an L76 intake and cable throttle body, I need to get that upper radiator hose outlet out of the way. Modifying the truck water pump seems to fit the bill (assuming I can find a machine shop that will open up that boss to the proper press fit size).

The pumps are all the same casting. If you take a f-body pump, pull the pulley and press on a truck one, your back to a pump with a forward facing outlet, and a truck pulley.

Personally think thats easier then pulling & welding the casting then drilling and pressing the inlet back

Good to have other options to consider.

The LQ4 pump shaft has threads for the engine-driven fan. Is the pulley mounting still the same as LS1's with electric radiator fans?

I've never pulled LSx water pump pulleys, so I don't have a clue (still haven't made a real attempt at removing the LQ4 fan, for that matter).

to be honest, i forgot about the threads. Ive got 2 pumps from a 2005+ motor so they dont have the threads for a fan.

The pulleys are pressed on (Ive seen them come off before, and trust me it aint pretty - Came off on a procharged vette i built, literately spun off cause of belt tension)

I know forsure the truck pumps and teh f-body pumps that ive got are identical except for pulley and outlet location. I dont see why you couldnt transfer the pulley

Oilpan: I found an aftermarket pan baffle, for the fourth-gen LS1 oil pan, the baffle is based on the stock '05 'vette LS2, and gives similar oil control. Yhis baffle is $178. So I think I'd be better off just spending $251 for a new pan for an '05 LS2 'vette.

TB: My LQ4 came with the DBW TB, and the bulk of it is on the passenger side. I've found a half dozen companies offering TB spacers of about 1/2"-3/4" thickness, advertising gains in midrange torque. I'm thinking the increase in effective plenum volume can't be a bad thing. After all, plenum volume is supposed to be a given percentage of engine displacement. I have an extra 19 cubic inches over what this plenum was intended for, so the spacer mar be a great thing. I'm going to pursue this a little farther.

Water pump. I've never before heard of getting one for $50, or even $150. New they're close to $600. And since I can't find a good deal, there are others having trouble, too. This is another reason to pursue the thick TB spacer.

Accessories: Kwik Performance offers bracketry, for $287, to mount the alternator and p/s pump on the truck engine, but positioned right for installs like this. Add another $44 for the pump, from Rock Auto, and $27 for the belt. Get a new p/s reservoir from GM, $38, and a new p/s pulley for $19. I have tensioners and idler pulleys left over from previous stuff, and also an alternator. The Kwik mounting doesn't look GM, but it's not ugly.

Where are you guys looking for parts? I paid $300+ship for a waterpump, alternator, PS pump, brackets, crank pulley, hardware, tensioner and belt. Just watched LS1tech classified and scooped it up asap.

LS2 pan is going to be a longer sump the f-body pan and will require notching K.

I sell brand new waterpumps for $280CAD, Reman ones for $180CAD+core. (We own a retail automotive performance shop)

As for the TB spacer, the guys who offer the spaces that spiral air in, their claims are absolute BS, and are a utmost total waste of money.

First, the spaces are almost always offered for trucks, which are a long tube runny style, where the intake stream flows down a center tube, then up around the top of it where the runners draw the air. Its entirely different the the car style, and is not a tuned intake.

That same intake is offered on 4.8L, 5.3L and 6.0L motors, so obviously the displacement doesnt really make a difference for the intake. And if it did make a significant difference, companies would offer a different intake for every displacement configuration.

You can space the TB forward if you really want to, but i can tell you forsure your hurting the performance of the motor. You will loose hp and tq.

I can tell you forsure, Fluid Dynamics is no simple thing to understand. Its SO much more then just make the volume bigger and it can injest more air. Not that simple. Its extremely complicated, and involves understanding the frequency of the air entering the intake, in order to have the engine draw in as much air as possible.

One perfect example, is the 3 pedestals down the center of a LS1 intake. They are in there because at the perfect air frequency, the bottom floor of the intake would resonate.

Im not trying to tell you, you dont know what your talkin about, but it took me a while personally to look at an engine as more then more air in, more power. Im in school for Automotive Engine/Driveline design, im real passionate about this stuff.

Sheldon, I'm glad someone is getting all the lucky breaks in life, because it sure isn't me. You just set me a challenge I can't refuse: back-to-back testing my thick spacer versus no spacer, on a chassis dyno. But that's a ways off.

Im eager to see this!! If i had enough space to fit a spacer in on my t/a id throw one in and get my car on the chassis dyno here at school.

If i can figure something out to do some testing, ill be sure to let you know!

I was going to say the air flow dynamics are overwhelmingly controlled by the tube to each port. Putting something behind the TB is a waste of money (unless it has ports marked "Fuel" and "N2O" ).

It's all about pulse resonance. By the time the pulse hits the open plenum from each tube, it's all over. The plenum is about feeding each tube.

Ever seen "velocity stacks"? Hilborn fuel injection?

I realize we're far from carbuterion, but spacers there help the air to make the 90-degree turn into the ports, so it could be a spacer might help the air get into the frontmost ports. The testing could be simple, if only the wires to the MAFS are long enough. On the chassis dyno, baseline without the filter, then add 3 of those nitrous spacers and re-test. After all, the filter is the problem with fitting any spacer. AFAIK, there's a short rubber duct between the TB and the MAFS, and another between the mAFS and the stock filter setup. Undo that, clamp it onto one end of a length of PVC, maybe put a K&N cone on the other end.

Oilpan: I won't have to notch the K, because using the TR3650 from the '03 Mustang GT, and mounting the engine an inch farther back.

Speaking of an inch back, It might create issues with the exhaust, but I'll need a custom driveshaft anyway. I nearly bought the Hawks mounts, but that costs $252. I found another option, possible because of the TR3560, and in turn permitting the '05 LS2 'vette oilpan. Hooker mount adapter brackets are 1/4 inch mild steel, and move the engine back an inch. I already have Moroso solid mounts for traditional SBC into third-gen, which works with the Hooker brackets and my stock third-gen chassis. The Moroso mounts are part numbers 62510 and 62610.

Holy whole bunch of posts lol.

Yes, the spacers work on carb's, but a carbed intake is 10234349058349058% different the a LSx intake. Firstly the front ports have 0 issue getting air. Its the #7 cyl (furthest from the tb) is the one that has the issue, and whenever theirs a leaning out issue, its the #7 that dies first. Tis the reason i run my wideband on the passenger side cause i know the 7th cyl will be my leanest cylinder.

So running with your idea of making the front ports air scavenging ability better, you'd be making it even harder for the 7th port to get air, and make it leaner?

As for moving the engine back. You do realize that if your moving the motor back an inch your going to have the heads touching the firewall, you wont have room to fit in your sensors at the back, your coil packs will hit heater box for sure etc. Not to mention your going to have the cooling system fit differently, and as you mentioned exhaust will be a problem. Especially if you run LT's, your going to have your collectors hitting hte subframes.

Theres a group of us who were amongst the first to try alot of this, and you better believe these guys wanted to make things easier where we could, but its either not cost effective, or so much more work then tis worth to re invent the wheel.

I think its good that your trying to find a different way to do alot of this, but i think your going to be fedup in the long run with things not working together.

Okay, this helps me know what to expect, I do thank you. Heads touching firewall: BFH. Coil packs not clearing heater box: Relocate an inch forward. Sensors: BFH. Cooling system: Gotta be custom anyway to try the truck water pump, so cut-'n'-splice hoses are expected. Speedway offers a bunch of stuff to help with this. LTs: Surely there's some way to find that inch, whether by cutting it out of the primaries just before the collector, or by notching and boxing the subframe. Actually, I already expected the BFH parts and the coil relocation part. To the air distribution issue, I'll let the theory go, and stick to try-and-see. I'd heard that cylinder 7 runs hot, and running lean explains it, so that's where the extra bung (for the wideband at the chassis dyno shop) will go. But lack of air doesn't explain running lean, it would be running rich. And rich is safe, so I'll proceed with my build as fast as money and weather permit, tuning is last anyway.

No progress here. Temps are stuck below the mid teens, and there's too much snow for moving it into my fully enclosed garage. I don't have access to a bulldozer. So I'll be getting back to this in the springtime, with occasional bumps until then.

I made a little progress, the temps climbed into the low 40s for a couple of days. I got the #317 heads off. I snugged a pair of #241 heads on to seal up the cylinders until I can get back to this. So now it looks like it did last month, but couldn't be fired up, with no rocker arms or pushrods in there. I have them, I just left them out.

so what did u end up for with accesories? are u going ps or manual steering? the wp u have now would not be a problem if u were running a vic jr.
u can still use the truck damper with car wp. just need to pull the the pulley itself around 3/8 of an inch. ive done many times. the pulleys are originally pressed on to the pumps. its not difficult.
also u dont have to use the fbody accesories. with the setup u got now, its possible to run a alt that plugs into your existing wiring.

You're getting way ahead of me. Also, these heads will have to come back off come spring, at least for new head gaskets and new head bolts. More likely, also to be milled 0.030", ported, and fitted with better springs and new valve seals.

I'm back online, but no progress due to snow.

Winter is over, I'm getting to work on the car.

Pistons! Sealed Power H1129CT +.75mm, $30 each, hypereutectic flat top (turn an LQ4 into an LQ9) 4.030", 1.325" compression height, with pins offset by 0.030" for reduced "slap"
Even more necessary since I want to run a decent cam and I live at high elevation. And only half the price of forged pistons. I PM'ed Atilla, he says I can run mild boost ( "up to 12 psi absolute max., with intercooling and meth injection, on premuim gas with octane booster, and a proper tune. Polish the tops of the pistons, to keep the extra heat out of them." ) with these if I have the bores honed an extra thousandth, no more, and he will be sending me another PM about rings and gaps.
I don't see running boost at first, but considering how long these engines last, and how horsepower is an addiction for which you eventually need more, then eventually need even more, plus considering the thin air up here, it seems wise to have it honed accordingly. It shouldn't cost any extra. It's just a matter of finding a shop that agrees with Atilla and will do the extra thou.