TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I'm an original owner taking the LS plunge. I'm medium mechanically minded, but fearless (dangerous combo). The LS2 takeout has 34k from salvage - harness, E40, pedal, & MAF. Car was a manual, I'm going auto w/AC. Purchased a TCM (T42), but need to convert harness from manual to auto. I need to figure this out before sending both harnesses out for a conversion - farm out the electrical!

Pulled the motor & trans, harness, exhaust, driveshaft, & torque arm. Decided to de-grease the engine bay (Purple Power & parts brush), then decided to aerosol paint the engine bay (nothing extravagant - some overspray) and did not remove everything. I can't go down every road on this project. but I'm happy with the quick result.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I would appreciate any helps, insight, suggestions as I move forward. Will notch & paint k-member, swap to f-body oil pan & dipstick next.
I'm working with Hawks Thirdgen on this swap as well. GTO LS2 is relatively new swap for them. Have their mounts, exhaust, fuel press reg & lines, AC lines and they're doing the harness conversion w/re-flash.
Any tips for the DBW?

Brian

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ula-vin-h.html

Most condensed step by step swap I know of on this forum

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ltx-swaps.html

Lots of reading material in there

Personal opinion, but Id use to a classic GEN III harness with the few minor sensor moves. Even if your crank is the 58x type (I doubt it) an adapter box makes it a non-issue. GEN III electronics are more common, info more readily available and lots more knowledgeable people around for troubleshooting. Plus they are actual PCMs and do not require separate modules for things like the trans. They're also compatible with DBC TBs which in my book is a plus

Another personal opinion, partly from experience. RUN from them and anything they tell you. I have dealt with their customer service and was burned pretty badly. Ive also seen several of their swaps first hand and am appalled by the lack of quality and how they just cram stuff anywhere it will fit. I can post pics if you'd like. Their flagship cars like the yellow maggy formula and "Storm trooper" cars are no exceptions

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Also, locate the large body connector that went near the booster. Its called the C100. Pull the fingers back and pop the light harness half off. That half isnt touched by the conversion plus its a massive chore to remove, especially still attached to the engine harness

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the links, Pocket - read through them (not every swap).
While mine is a Gen IV, it is a 24x. I appreciate your opinions, but I'll stick with the Gen IV, E40, T42, & DBW.
As for Hawks, so far so good. The mounts & cross-member, I can make work, the Stainless Works exhaust (2" headers) is pricey, but I think I'm ok - will check the collectors when they arrive. That's my extent of commitment, so far.
I'm aiming at a plug and play, scenario. I'm by no means well off! But I will gladly pay others for their labor & expertise - they need to make a profit, too. I realize that's not the general consensus on a DIY forum, but I don't want this to take over my time for a one swap project. Too much to learn - would rather enjoy it!
You mentioned the ratchet strap method on trans. Do you recommend just engine install first (will be dropping in), and then the trans after?
I'll PM you.

Thanks again,
Brian

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Depends how you plan to install the drivetrain

Most people attach the engine/trans together prior to sticking them in. I prefer to have them together and attached to the K-member installed from the bottom. Going in from the top also works but you have to be careful. The straps are useful when installing them separate because trans are usually very heavy

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

You may have already ordered the headers, but if you haven't then save money by getting the 1-3/4 inch primaries. 2 inch is way too big for a 6.0L. I've seen low 10 second cars with 1-3/4 inch.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here's the Gen IV and harness removed (the Westie thinks he owns everything). Sent both harnesses off with the E40 & TCM.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I've completed the k-member notch with 3/16" plate. The larger vertical plate I welded everywhere I could for strength. I positioned it right under the lip of the k-member. I also POR-15 and POR-15 chasis-black coated the k-member - a pic of the black shows no detail.
I've yet to see any pics of how much to trim on the evaporator box to clear the back coil - anyone have any suggestions as to how much to take off around the bolt?
This week I'll swap the oil pan, windage, & pick-up tube along with a new dipstick; swap out the rubber and put in prothane poly in the mounts, and do more reading & research. I guess the harness will take awhile, so I'm enjoying little slow time and my niece from Paris is visiting for the month.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

after it took us quite a bit of time to install my LSx/mn12 from the top, i really suggest you notch the K member for the oil pan, i know i really needed it and if you look around on here, no one has much clearance once installed, just like mine, only about a sheet of paper between k member and pan. it also will help with the installation. (if goin thru the top)

White'89

iTrader: (8)

I agree, good luck going through the top. I had to remove my motor after completion because of an oil leak and was hoping I could just unbolt everything and pull the motor out(leaving the trans in). Well it turns out I was wrong because the oil pan wouldn't clear the k-member. After that out came the trans then the motor, but I'm lucky enough to have a lift.

So notching the k-member would make going through the top that much easier.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

OK, I took your advice - some people actually do take advice!

I notched the k-member. Here's a couple pics. Just ground the welds, haven't re-painted, yet.
Should I wait for the harness before installing motor? I can wait, just wondering what is best.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

Most people attach all the plugs on the harness to the motor and then stick it in and connect the body plugs once the motor is in. I like to do it exactly the opposite but I've been told I do things the hard way.

robbe_iroc

Hi there. I did the same GTO swap into my Iroc. Bought a J1 harness from Speartech. Well worth the money. DBW, fuel pump relay gauges etc go from that J1 connection. I don´t how we would have manged without it.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Hi robbe_Iroc;
Do you have any pics of your mounting bracket for the DBW?

While everything is out of the tunnel, I decided to clean & re-paint. I thought I would just POR-15 rust and then POR-15 chasis black, but my father said that black will absorb heat, and I should re-paint with red. What do you guys think. I don't think it will look bad (it's underneath, anyway) with red in the tunnel and black on the floor pans. I will paint the underside with POR-15 over the winter. I'm just going to do the tunnel, now. Every time I say that I'm not going to do everything- I just can't leave it alone! I don't believe that black will absorb that much heat.

92Firebug

Sweet Build...I hope to do an LS2 in my 92 bird and go with a rebuilt automatic.

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

i built my harness while the engine was in the car, so i opted to put in the motor first so I could get all the lengths just right, but everyone does this part a little different.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I haven't figured out a custom bracket for the DBW pedal, yet. But here's a handy diagram out of Potak's Swap Manual.

Iroc'nthe87

iTrader: (5)

If you come up with something, you should make a clone

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Today I moved the hard line heater hose for better access to my weight jack bolt and elongated those bolt holes since I have access. Just in case you're curious: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...g-vetruck.html Also, trimmed the bolt from the evap box for better fit with the rear coil pack.
Trans arrived this week: 4L65E from a wrecked 06 GTO with 28k on it.
Hawks should have the harness finished early this coming week. Looks like I'll be busy by next weekend! Also ordered a BMR Trak Pak w/straight cross-member for better clearance.
Brian

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I received the headers, y-pipe, & re-programmed computers today. Should have the harness tomorrow.
I put the headlight harness back in (I had taken it out before Pocket warned me not to). What a pain!
I deleted the throttle cable today. I used some fender washers and rubber washers to seal up the hole. It worked pretty well. Here are some pics.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I received the harness and rest of exhaust today. Barely had time to open it up, check it out, and try out a few things before end of business day. Talked with Bruce, and he answered a few questions. Still confused and want to make weekend progress - so I'll ask the board for wiring help.
Bruce said that I need a 3 pin coolant temp sending unit. The connector on the harness is 3 pin, and my unit is 2. He said '98 Z28 will work. Went to local Autozone, and all they could pull up is the 2 pin that I have - exact same.
Also, the wire will not reach the temp sending unit, even if I get one to adapt to the harness (I thought the harness would adapt). Above, the injector connection---alternator connection---knock sensor stretch the loom tight. The fit is terrible. I think the connector is for the oil press sending unit at back of block - a long way away. Here are pics of tight loom - look where loom comes across valve cover and down (not good with headers), the connector, and the oil press sending unit that looks like a perfect match

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

The wire that will not reach is the shorter one hanging in the bigger pic.

Also, the wire hanging lower is a 3 pin connector. I think it is the cam sensor, but it does not fit, either. The cam sensor has a protrusion inside the unit which prevents a "smooth" connector like the on on the loom. Something isnt right, but I'm no electrical guru. I expected some frustration, now its the weekend and I cannot speak with Bruce and want to make weekend progress.
Here's a pic of the three pin connector and a bad angle of the cam sensor - you can barely make out the protrusion inside the unit up at the top.

I guess I can always change the pinion seal, start on hanging the exhaust, but I want to get 'er in!

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

So, I've driven all over town. No one has them in stock (dealers,Napa,autozone,o'reilly's). The three wire coolant temp sending unit is GM # 12551708 - I have not verified the pin configuration, but it is a 3-pin=$30. The Oil Press Sending unit is GM #12559781 - I have not verified the connector configuration (oblong), but is 1 pin=$50.
$80.00 added to the cost of the "conversion" harness makes me feel like I am converting to the harness, rather than what I paid for; a conversion harness to what I have. It seems a standard LS1 configuration was used for the conversion harness, and I have an LS2. I'm concerned that if I switch to LS1 sensors, the correct signal outputs to the E40 will be different (2 pin coolant sender for LS2 compare to 3 pin coolant sender for LS1).
The O2 sensors connectors are square; the O2 sensors from a GTO LS2 are flat (both 4 pin) and have different part #'s. Not sure if the difference is only in the connector type, or in output signal to the ECM as well. Anyone have knowledge. I would think an O2 is an O2.
When I sent both harnesses in, the correct connectors were on the LS2 harness. Why change them? Is there an advantage to the end user? I guess I'm stuck till I can speak with Bruce on Monday.
Even if I incur the cost of new sensors, it does not address the loom routing issue.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Jeez what a mess wrapped up in a pretty loom. Did he not label the connectors?

On to the fixing

Yes, you need the 3 pin CTS. Order it from the dealer. PN looks correct, but compnine has changed to a different PN. It is definitely NOT the 2 pin version

Oil press sender PN is correct. GEN IV engines used a 3 wire pressure sensor and sent the data to the PCM to repackage into the serial data stream going to the cluster. The older 1 wire senders are the same sender 3rd gens use with a different thread base and drive an analog gauge. I dont see either connector present in the harness picture, but its a gray connector on a single wire going to the C100

The unknown 3 pin connector is for the cam sensor. GEN IV engines used a short harness between the engine harness and cam sensor because its hard to reach when the engine was on the assembly line. GM used a rigid sheath to keep it away from the balancer, it is PN 12593593

Not sure why he changed HO2 types from your original because that opens a whole new can of worms. Rock auto lists both types though for reasonably cheap

Personally, Id send it back and tell him to fix the list of problems

rock861261

If I have learned anything In my ls1 build its that what pocket says goes...

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for your reply Pocket,
NO, the connectors were not labeled. Only bare wires were labeled: brake, A/C, and a whole bunch of "optional automatic shift" wires (still trying to figure that out).
Changing the senors is easier, but more costly to me; and pollutes the environment with more unneeded trash. I'm unsure on the O2 sensors - I can't imagine that LS2 O2 sensors would send a different signal/pulse than LS1 O2 sensors. Probably just the connector style. I'll check it out - dealer wasn't sure.
As for the loom, I think it can be fixed by unwrapping the Knock sensor wire so that the wire goes to the knock sensor from the back. No idea why someone would loom that to the front with the cam,alt,cts, & MAF. Sucks to do all this conversion on a "conversion" harness.
It is my opinion (for what it's worth), that someone just did a LS1 conversion harness according to a template without knowing/considering that this was for a LS2; AND THE PROPER CONNECTORS WERE ALREADY ON THE HARNESS!!
Aside from the cost of new sending units, these are easy fixes. Hawks probably farmed this out, so I'm not mad at Bruce. As long as he works with me to fix it, I'm OK with that - just frustrating on the weekend and can't move forward.
The LS2 is versatile with cable or DBW; head & intake choices; strength of block; 24x or 58x. I guess that versatility makes choices more difficult.
Thanks again for your replies. Let you all know Mon night.
The 2" headers and complete exhaust are fantastic. I'll post pics on Mon. Those pipes are huge and finding room around the trans is the hurdle I want to get to & over. Also, massaging the intermediate around the trak pak straight crossmember will require some fab work as well.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Talked with Bruce today. He's sending me the sending units and apologized for not mentioning the necessary swap. I woke up at 6 am thinking about it, opened Potak's swap manual and there on pg 64 was exactly the right info. I should have retained that knowledge, as well; but one never knows till you get the harness and it doesn't fit and nothing is labeled. The Gen IV sending units will not work with my 3rd Gen gauges - that necessitates the swap.
The knock sensor wire is too short, so Bruce is sending an extension harness. So it looks like all is well - just need the sending units before engine install and good weather, as this is a driveway swap - just outside the garage.
The "optional" auto trans shifter wires are apparently for the GTO shifter. I'm guessing that means I can also delete the black electrical connector on the shift mechanism (pic below). I'll need all the room I can get right there through the tunnel.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here are the SSW exhuast pics. I'm sure you've seen them before. Boy, that muffler is straight through!

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

While stuck this weekend I decided that when I open the hood, I do not want to be confronted with "GTO." I cut off the plastic letters (they are solid not hollow) and tried to smooth the background but it just can't be done well. I thought of some kind of inlay for a smooth background, but I think I'll just live with this for the immediate future. It's still better than the transplant look. Went to Hobby Lobby and walked through the store till I found these letters.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Bolted the trans up, today. Plugged most of the harness in. Still waiting for new sending units to arrive, but will go ahead with getting it in, tomorrow. Hopefully that oil press sending unit will be easy to swap while in the car - I know things will be tight against the firewall. That reminds me, I have two grounds off the harness back there: one is single thick wire, other is 4 or 5 wires to one eye-loop. Do these grounds both go to block, OR does one go to firewall (which one)?
I re-used my 700R4 dipstick & tube. Had to bend it around a little, but it is secure. Also swapped fittings and re-used the hard lines, as well. You can see the lines sticking way out in front. The lines on my L98 were secured to an oil pan bolt, I bent that around too, and used a plugged tapped hole to secure. Swapped the shift lever - MORE on this later - some kind of jostling will be needed to clear headers.
Took off the evap solenoid and lines from LS2. If anyone is interested in them, PM. I'm using dual catch cans from Saikou Michi - more on this after it's in the car.
The plastic bag has all the stuff that will go thru the fenderwell - just cinched it all up and will lay on top for install.

As I mentioned, I will be going in through the top. Will jack-up the rear and see what happens!
Just received my weekend ticket for SCCA Natl Runoffs at Road America next Thurs-Sun. Just when I'm itching to get everything hooked-up, I'll be taking a break. Maybe that's a good thing. The variety of racing at this event is really amazing.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Harness ground rings go to the heads, then the bare braided strap goes from the engine to chassis

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Got it in, yesterday!
Tried to put it in with the starter on - bad idea. Took the starter off so that I could clear the prongs on the Spohn motor mounts. Had another slight problem with the alternator bolt hitting the gusset (frame to K-member). Struggled for a while til I figure it out. Took the gusset off, and the motor slid right in. Notched the gusset (will put back in later when I jack up the front end). Plenty of clearance on the oil pan.
Once I got the motor in, I noticed that the A/C compressor was right up against the k-member. I would not be able to get the fitting on, but the motor went in with the compressor on. I lifted the motor up a little, and took the compressor off. I put the motor back down on the mounts and put the bolts in - no problem at all. I had to cut and re-weld more horizontal relief into the k-member for the compressor while the motor was in. Not much room, and a lot of frustration. I had to have relief all the way to the frame rail! Depth was never a problem. I wonder if I have a strange compressor: Part # 1140104. Finished cutting and re-welding today.
Also put on the tailpipe, muffler, & over axle pieces. Leaving the intermediate pipe and headers for a few days. Waiting for some info on the header-shift lever alignment & intermediate pipe-straight crossmember trak pak bar positioning.
Have plenty to do with connections, wires, etc. More pics on Mon. Feels good to have it in!

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Found out that everyone uses the F-Body III Gen compressors. My LS2 GTO uses a larger compressor and the fitting is at an angle - see my pic with motor going in, you can see the angle of the fitting. More frustration with Gen IV motor and most vendors using Gen III. The A/C kit I ordered from Hawks has the wrong fitting. You can see that it won't seat properly. More wait time, but now I won't need A/C for awhile.
Bolted up the drivers' side header. Pics are with them just threaded. As I attempted to torque them down, the back two bolts I had problems with. Had to take header off, tap the bolt holes, and put header back on. An afternoon of frustration!
You can see the header collector and the trans shift bracket. Bruce is working on a fix for me. Again, more wait time. You can see that I decided to use the red engine bay color all the way to the trans tailstock. From there on it's black.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Plenty of room at the pan.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

More room with these, than with the SLP headers.
Also, look at above pic with trans cross member. I have a braided ground strap hanging on the trans as well. I think you should do both the block an trans!

Iroc'nthe87

iTrader: (5)

Looking good! Still anxious to see what ya come up with for the pedal!

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Tried to get pass side header on yesterday. Could not. Either pull pan past k-member to put on, or drop trans. There is not enough room to get past the trans bell housing (starter bulge) & back ear on a-arm mount. Jacking up off motor mount did not work. Called Bruce, he said they always put on, then put on trans. Oh, ...OK.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Got the trans off, it's raining. Done for the day.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Check the SCCA Website has livecast
American Sedan Series on Sunday @ 9:30 CST:
5 Himes, Tom 1989Ford MustangCH4 Resources Slidell, LA
8 Post, Jerry 2002Chevrolet CamaroTrapani Suspensions Sunset, SC
9 Trapani, Joseph 1988Chevrolet CamaroTrapani Suspensions/Clark Rcg Eng/Goodyear Dushore, PA
13 Qualls, Christopher 1996Ford MustangHasa Chemical/B&D Racing/Goodyear Burbank, CA
15 Richardson, Daniel 1991Chevrolet CamaroPerformance Auto Works/Goodyear Derwood, MD
16 Careri, Dennis 2005Ford Mustang
Boxford, MA
17 Hosni, Edward 1985Ford MustangLasco Ford, Pro Systems Galloway, OH
18 Wilmot, Pat 1984Ford MustangBenchWarmers Roswell, GA
20 Wheeler, Jim
Pontiac Trans AMHoosier/Willwood Brakes/KC Raceware Lenexa, KS
21 Bailey, Aaron 2001Pontiac FirebirdBFGoodrich/Carbotech/Gatorz Eyewear Shasta Lake, CA
24 Mcdermid, Andy 2005Ford MustangWeatherTech/Felice Perf Eng/T&A Shocks/Lane Auto/RedLine/Edelbrock/MSD williamston, MI
28 Schweitzer, Scott
Ford MustangKMS Autosport Lake Orion, MI
32 Lubash, Kelly
Chevrolet camaro
Stamford, CT
42 Lavigne, Michael 1995Ford MustangAuto Re-Nu-It Auto Body/Hoosier Tire Hooksett, NH
48 Werth, Jeffrey 1992Chevrolet CamaroHoosier/A&C Machine/OG Racing/WRE LLC/RaceKeeper Silver Spring, MD
53 West, Thomas 2002Chevrolet CamaroLimerick Machine Company Standish, ME
54 Heinricy, John 2002Pontiac FirebirdTAR/Hoosier/Hawk/Mobil1 Holly, Mi
57 Ellis, Tom 2006Ford MustangPalm Express/Steeda/Dawson Motorsports Sunrise, FL
67 Pedersen, Chris 2009Ford Mustang
Mundelein, IL
74 Sloe, Tom 1996Ford MustangHutter Racing Eng/Hoosier/Russell Auto Center Newbury, OH
78 Sanda, Scott 2004Cadillac CTSVTro Manufacturing Western Springs, IL
80 Venhaus, David 1995Ford MustangCSR Bobcat Illumination Optics Axis R/C West Allis, WI

Red87SC

the swap is looking really good thus far.

Sucks that youve gotta deal with all the differences in between the gen III and gen IV engines and their accessories.

side note: Is that a 67-68 Cadillac coupe deville in the backround of the pic with the engine hanging over the Formula?

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

That beast is what's forced me outside on the driveway! It's a rare '65 Eldorado Brougham Convert w/RWD. Only 2,150 made. It's a frame-off resto

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Finally got them in today. Had to take the pass side header off. The collectors wrap around the bell housing of the trans. My recommendation: drop trans, put up pass side header, trans back up, then driver's side header. Driver's side will go right up. If you try to have both headers in, it will be terrible to try and clear the collectors and get the bell housing up. Maybe on a lift that's not so difficult (still not sure); but, this is what worked for me.
Boy, I wish I had some direction/info before all this hassle.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Had to move the fuel lines slightly to clear the trans cross-member. It was too close to leave. You can see on the collector shot how the fuel lines pulled away. I guess I didn't clean there as well as I thought before painting, but I don't like moving fuel lines. Here's some clearance shots from underneath.
Taking the weekend off to live a little, and have fun at the track.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Still raining here, today.
Got the C100 reconnected and pulled the cockpit wires through the fender-well hole.
Will start figuring out pedal mount and ECM & TCU mounting ideas. Any one have pics?
Here's a pic from the weekend

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Changed the pinion seal and installed TA diff cover w/stud kit. Maybe the 9bolt will hold a little longer.
Put in the condenser, radiator, and dual fan shroud. Engine bay looks a little more complete.
Struggling with exhaust fitment - very tight tolerances and getting those flanges flat just isn't working for me. I'm eager to get this done, so I can finish the last welding job - BMR trak pak crossmember. When there's no more welding left, then I know I've rounded the last corner.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Struggling with fitment of the y-pipe, pass side! Needed to dimple areas around the rear of trans oil pan and the rear bolt head of the trans cross-member. I went to Home Depot and got some 3" ID PVC pipe and cut it in half. This allowed me to hammer on the pipe and have good support around the diameter of the pipe - prevent flat spotting the pipe opposite of where you're hammering. Worked well, & it helps to give you a good visual of how much you are dimpling as the PVC is still round.
The dimple by the sledge head is the trans oil pan clearance, the other side came pre-clearanced (longer section) for the cross-member, but I did some more on the far right to clear that rear bolt head on the cross-member. Hopefully this will allow me to rotate the pipe with clearance (while staying flat on the flanges) and get me into the desired position.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here's a couple pics of cross-member bolt clearance. And a shot of ground clearance from the back.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Here's a couple around the trans oil pan.
The rear flange of the y-pipe sits pretty high up in the tunnel. Not sure with the v-clamp how much clearance with the aluminum driveshaft I'll have there. This exhaust is big and the y-frame tunnel has little room.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

At the back