Members FirebirdsPost pictures and information about your Third Gen Base, SE, Formula, Trans Am, and GTA Firebirds!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!
View Poll Results: What would be more cost/performance effective.
Here is my project. I'm turning my 1984 Trans Am into a lean mean modern machine. I'll be outlining my project and posting pics of progress. Free to post suggestions. All info subject to change
Most of this car is stock, altho the engine has been rebuilt and there is evidence the old engine caught fire at some point. To the best of my knowledge this is what i have.
1984 Trans Am with all the extras
305ci L69 Engine
700r4 Auto trans
Stock tires and rims
stock rear end
Not sure on the gear ratio on the rear end or the trans but pretty sure its stock
The mods: This list is constantly changing so bear with me.
Engine: ??? Not sure. We'll see what I decide once the poll closes.
Transmission: 4l60e
Rear axel: Haven't done a lot of research on this yet
Dual electric seats with user memory
Custom fiberglass dash board. Create-A-Dash kit with digital gagues in a custom housing to make installation/removal easier. Dash will have a more rounded modern look with upgraded features such as better vents, touchscreen lcd display, passenger computer terminal for engine management/infotainment (never know, I may start doing car shows and need a way to keep a passenger occupied)
Dash will also house new controls for mirrors, windows, lights etc. I plan on putting a new switch pod behind the steering wheel that will replace old controls for cruise, wipers, signals, interior and exterior auxilary lighting.
Seats will be replaced with new more comfertable buckets possibly covered in suede leather. I'm thinking I'd like to add better lumbar support along with seat warmers. and make the seats electric controlled. eventually I'd like to add user memory
Custom nose. not building a Knight Rider replica but I do like the nose piece. I'm thinking of the Rob Louisel season 3/4 version
The wiring will have to be completly redone due to the damage in the engine bay and the problems with lighting and turn signals and such.
In the rear will be a secondary battery and charging circuit connected to the alternator. The computers and audio amps will be in the back arranged for maximum air flow to keep the components cool.
I would like to make a new
The suspension will be upgraded to a modern sport suspension
the brake system will also be upgraded to ABS with integrated electronic ebrake
The rear hatch will be modified with solar panels to help keep the auxilary battery charged when the car is parked for long periods and I'm thinking about modifying a pair of lexan tops to accomodate another set of panels for added charging for extended periods of inactivity.
Both the hood and rear hatch will have electric pistons to raise the hood and rear hatch to cut down on figerprints on the new paint job.
Ahe doors will be shaved and something instead of door handles will go in thier place, haven't decided what yet. I've heard the new corvettes have a keyless entry with biometrics or something.
As for the in between. obviously I'll need a better alternator, the cooling system will need an overhaul and the new motor hasn't been found. Since I got away from the idea of building one I've been looking for an LT1 with 300-400hp not sure how crazy I want to get with that yet.
Still making regular updates and I'll continue posting pictures as I can. Enjoy.
Here is my lovely yard ornament as she sits.
This ad is not displayed to registered members. Register your free account today and become a member on ThirdGen!
Last edited by commguy; 10-16-2009 at 12:51 PM.
Reason: Updates
Sponsored Links
Registered users do not see this ad. Click here to register for free!
First order of business. Remove and replace Head gaskets.
Since I took this I hit a snag. I was hoping to avoid removing the headers just yet, I will be replacing the engine eventually I just wanted to do as little work to this one as possible. That is proving at least at the moment to be impossible. Back to the store for some Jack stands...
Thanks. Its going to be quite the project, testing everything I've learned in life so far. At least the wiring should be fairly strait forward. Since all the wiring is shot I ordered an EZ harness from a company in Florida, best price on an aftermarket harness I've found so far. I think at this point the new dash will be the hardest to put together. Especially since I haven't yet worked with any kind of fiberglass. So that should be interesting.
It looks like a nice car to start with! Some of your ideas seem a bit extreme... you might want to do this in stages! The fingerprint recognition, solar panels and electronic e-brake seem excessive. Also, you already have the most beautiful nose to ever be used on a 3rd gen... keep it! hehe. Someone on this site did a great job fabricating C6 style door handles for their 3rd gen camaro. It's worth searching for.
__________________ Bright Platinum Metallic exterior with painted hoodbird. Black interior with 2002 Trans Am Ebony leather seats. Smoothed inner fenders.
Current Drivetrain: LT1 and T56 with SLP 1 3/4" primary headers and catback: 8.85 seconds in 1/8 mile w/ lousy street tires.
It really is a great car to start with. I was a little dissapointed when I got it home and found problems that weren't apparent on the surface. The engine wiring being shot was the biggest, and the computer being toast. Took 2 weeks for my fun sports car to turn into a yard ornament. But I digress. I plan on making this an extreme makeover of sorts. I've always loved the body design of the 3rd Gen F Body and bringing this car into the 20th century will be a challenge but it will be more than a car when I'm done it will be my own personal work of art. Hopefully the journy will be as much fun as the destination.
After patiently waiting all day on UPS I finally got my new wire harness last night. EZ harness had a great alternative to the more expencive ones I'd previously found. This one cost me just over $200 after shipping. I just have to work out how to route the new wiring and remove the old. It will take carefull planning but I think the replacement will definatly be worth it. I may wait until I get the interior removed to make the installation go smoother.
Worked on a few more ideas for the interior. I'm going to try to strip the old dash pad before I start fiberglass work on the new one so I have a more rigid backing and I can reuse the mounting hardware. I found push button shift hardware from Retrotek and I'm still looking for a dealer for the electronic parking brake that will help free up surface and center console space that will make installation of extras for the dash electronics more favorable. Now I just need an artist for the concept drawings. hmmmm wonder if I know someone that can do 3D models too.....
before I forget here's the wire harness if anyone is interested.
Well the weather here isn't conducive to working outside, so I thought I'd take some time to start prepping materials for the dash rebuild. I'm taking the old dash pad and stripping it down to bare metal so I have a more rigid frame for the top to minimize warping in the fiberglass. As you can see removing the old material gets a bit messy. another purpose behind using this is to reuse the mounting brackets and holes in the origional frame. Some of the vents will be reused like the defrost vents, and I'll be able to build the frame for the LCD screens right off of this peice. Once I'm done it will be slightly more rounded to accomodate more wiring and devices and to give it a more modern look.
As I research parts for my new engine a thought occurs..
I figured building my engine myself would make it easier to build what I want and get the performance I need. However, I've been looking at shops that build motors and I wonder if going with a shop that can build what I want would be more cost effective and guarantee performance I need.
I really want a good strong 350, aluminum heads with high output water pump for better heat dissipation, forged crank and cam for strength, capable of being fuel injected and giving me a base hp of at least 300-350.
So for you 3rd gen engine buffs, if you happen to be reading this and have a thought or know of a place to get such an engine I would love to hear your opinion.
Edit: Did some research last night and while I'm waiting for some responses to my inquiries I did find a 330hp base for under 3k. The 4l60e trans I'm looking for should be around 1800. Still looking...
Last edited by commguy; 09-12-2009 at 12:00 PM.
Reason: Update
Just ordered my EZ wiring harness this morning, hope the cheap price isnt cheap quality. I like this project seems your doing what I am. Keep me posted
Jason
__________________
86 IROC-Z---> 377ci Twin Turbo project is in the works
Still stripping the dash pad, work has me pretty slammed lately but I'm trying to find a way to strip all the material off of the metal so I can start soldering in supports for the future fiberglass work. This week/weekend I'll be pulling out all of the guts from the existing dash so I can ensure my work fits with existing mounts and ducts.
The other thing I'm working on is figuring out what type of engine I want in this beast. I had orrigionally thought build a 350 and the more I got into researching parts the more I discovered there are thousands of ways to build it and I don't know enough about engines to know exactly what I want and why. Sooooooo....
I'm debating between a few options. Either I find a custom built motor with a minimum hp of around 350 and try to mimic what they built. Or I try to find a used LS1 and rebuild it.
Still weighing the pros and cons of both. Bottom line is I need to be able to put a quality product in this thing without blowing my whole budget on the engine. I still have to paint this thing eventually. With all of the modifications I'll be doing, I'm trying to keep the engine and drive train under 5k. I may have to face the reality that I'm not going to get more than 300hp for that price, and find a way to up my budget but we'll see.
As always I welcome opinions from experienced builders.
Sorry for the long wait between updates. Between the family getting sick and work keeping on 16 - 20 hour days its been difficult to get any work done. I'm sure no one knows what thats like lol.
Anywho, got the dash board out and suprise suprise the wiring underneath is worse than I thought. The harness I got from EZwiring is really going to come in handy. As I modernize the new dashboard here is what I hope to accomplish.
The old dash will be used as a mock up, the orrigional mounting hardware will be used while rounding off the edges and giving the dash a more round modern shape. Much of the plastic backing will be removed to make room for the new cavity which will house a build your own dash kit that I plan on purchasing from JC Whitney. The kit will be arranged to my liking and covered with smoked plexiglass and a template will be made to keep the 'guts' from showing and sealed in a custom plastic housing to make removal and installation a bit easier.
One fortunate part of the origional construction is that there were all kinds of metal brace/brackets and will make soldering new frame pieces easier.
Once all of the primary shaping is done, supports will be placed in key areas and the whole thing will be covered in fleese then fiberglassed. once the first layer of fiberglass is done I'll cover it with fiber cloths to add strength and support to the key areas and main surface area to try to cut down on flexing in the heat. once the main glass work is done I'll start placing extras like vents and new mounting brackets for the touch screen and video cameras.
As always my work in progress is evolving and I'm never above taking suggestions from you hard working experience builders. Thanks for visiting and I'll update with more pictures soon.
Took a second look at what is left of the wiring in the car and frustrating as it sounds I may need to remove all of the old wiring and start from scratch. that seems much less overwhelming than trying to salvage what is left. The one begging question will be how modern is the transmission and what am I about to remove that will make it inoperable. My hope is that the 700r4 installed is stock and completely vacuum operated and I'll be able to 'dumb' down the engine to work off of the carb until I'm ready for an engine drivetrain swap.
Ok so I've been racking my brain about where to go with the engine. After doing a little more in-depth research I've found that the LS2 is what I would like to put in this car but the cheapest I've found one for so far is about 5k for a used engine with around 25k miles on it. Way over my engine budget.
So I'm posting a poll and please if you have any inside knowledge on the subject I'd love to hear it, LS1 vs LT1. They both have great qualities but I want to keep the engine cost under 3k and I'm shooting for 300hp. the LS1 looks like its pretty much EFI standard and the LT1 was the older carb model but EFI can be added. Once I settle on an engine the rest will be easy.
LT1s from the mid 90's were fuel injected engines. Maybe when you researched it you got results relating to the 1970's big block engine that was designated as an LT-1. I did an LT1 swap into my 84 T/A and it was very inexpensive with me doing the wiring work myself. An LS1 install wouldn't be killer expensive, but you do need custom/aftermarket engine mounts, I think there are more changes required to the fuel lines, and the exhaust options are much more limited. A few years ago I would've said LT1 is the only way to go based on your budget. However, the cost of a used LS1 engine has dropped significantly in recent years and can be done on a fairly tight budget if you do all the work yourself. the LS2 is less plentiful so it will be a good bit more expensive than the LS1.
__________________ Bright Platinum Metallic exterior with painted hoodbird. Black interior with 2002 Trans Am Ebony leather seats. Smoothed inner fenders.
Current Drivetrain: LT1 and T56 with SLP 1 3/4" primary headers and catback: 8.85 seconds in 1/8 mile w/ lousy street tires.
You aint lyin about the LS2, cheapest one I found was 4850. Custom mounts for the LS1? How custom? How would the exhaust options be limited? The fuel lines will all have to be replaced anyway as the current motor uses carb/mechanical fuel pump. At this time I'm definatly leaning toward the LS1 over the LT1 just based off of what I have read about performance options. The wiring is being completely redone anyway as the current harness will be insufficient for all of the new modifications.
Been doing some research in my downtime on some modifications to the doors. Looks like alot of people have talked about lambo/scissor/vertical doors and Gull wing doors but from what I can see no one has seriously looked into the possibility of the gull wing. I have several designs that I think will work, just have to get more measurements and buy a spare door so I can make a mock up. I'm thinking some high strength steel rails build a door frame and modify the window slightly and the orrigional door structure could be used while keeping a modified T top. My not have to use cross support between the front and rear of the structure.
Just need some fab materials and a spare door. Any one with the proper tools in MD want to help out?
I may post some designs soon I think it would really set off what I'm trying to do with this car quite nicely
the scissor doors have been done. I don't think it looks good on any car that didn't come with them originally, but they look particularly out of place with our very large, boxy doors. Gull wing doors would be TONS of work! Notice that on a DeLorean, they don't even have a full size roll-down window to get the rigidity needed to lift the door from the top. That's also a good bit smaller/lighter of a door to begin with.
Back to the engine related stuff.... The LT1 engine block accepts the same "clam shell" mounts that are used on all V8 offerings that came in 3rd gens. The LS1 has different mounting points and therefore requires a different set of mounts. There are aftermarket companies that make mounts for this swap. I believe Spohn is one of them.
Regarding the exhaust... An LT1 has the same exhaust port layout as the V8s that were originally offered in 3rd gens. The only difference is that the ports are slightly larger and D-shaped instead of rectangular. All headers built for 3rd gens will bolt onto an LT1. For best results, you want ones that have large enough primary openings that it doesn't partically cover the exhaust port on the LT1's head. I use SLP shorties with 1-3/4" primaries and they work very well. With an LS1 or LS2, the exhaust ports are round and in a different pattern than the LT1 and Gen 1 small blocks. You would either have to use the stock LS1 manifolds (which are almost shortie headers really) along with a custom built y-pipe or buy VERY EXPENSIVE aftermarket headers that are designed for an LS series engine installed in a 3rd gen f-body. Last I heard, there was only one company that made them, it was expensive and the fit wasn't perfect. I don't remember which company it was and things may very well have changed since then.
__________________ Bright Platinum Metallic exterior with painted hoodbird. Black interior with 2002 Trans Am Ebony leather seats. Smoothed inner fenders.
Current Drivetrain: LT1 and T56 with SLP 1 3/4" primary headers and catback: 8.85 seconds in 1/8 mile w/ lousy street tires.
Totally agree with you on the vertical/scissor doors. I don't think they look very good on cars that were designed for them personally. The gull wings will be alot of work I'm sure but I know they would look great if done properly. The DeLorians did have small windows but they were stainless steel construction and the doors weighed a ton, they probably needed the room for support for that massive weight. The nice part about the F-Body is the doors are much lighter and since the frame will have to be fabricated anyway the door can be stripped down further to add extra strength to the frame then covered in fiberglass.
But first priority is the Engine, wiring and dash board.
If I go with the LT1 it sounds like it will be much cheaper and I'll have less expencive customization options. However how much money will I have to put into the LT1 vs the LS1 to produce the 300hp I'm shooting for? Fortunatly I'm working with a blank slate wiring wise and have as much room as I want to make for the components.
3rd gen f-body doors are not light in any context! They are heavy! I just looked it up and stainless steel is only about 3% heavier than normal steel which is easily overcome by the larger dimensions of the 3rd gen doors.
Gull-wing doors are a very serious undertaking! I'd love to see it happen, but I don't expect that it ever will be done well. Just in case you didn't think of a few of these things, I'll list what requirements jump out at me for this job: Fabricate a VERY strong, rigid frame to go around the glass and fill in the t-top region, cut the door glass to match the new window frame, create new weatherstripping to match the contours of the window frame including mounting hardware for the weatherstripping, fabricate a new door striker (or two)for the front side of the door, properly specify and install hinges to mount the gullwing doors to the t-bar, spec and fabricate mounts for gas struts to hold the door up, reinforce the t-bar and roof structure to handle the new loads being placed on it.
All of this with panels lining up properly, having proper weathersealing and have a full sized window that the Delorean Motor Company couldn't accomplish with a much smaller door? That's a tall order.
__________________ Bright Platinum Metallic exterior with painted hoodbird. Black interior with 2002 Trans Am Ebony leather seats. Smoothed inner fenders.
Current Drivetrain: LT1 and T56 with SLP 1 3/4" primary headers and catback: 8.85 seconds in 1/8 mile w/ lousy street tires.
IMHO since I haven't been able to find weight on either door, judging by the size, bulk and dimensions of the two doors the lower part of the Delorean door would be heavier than the fbody door. I could be wrong, but that is how we learn.
The frame would have to be built with the fact that there is no window frame in mind as well, the weather stripping wouldn't be too difficult, especially compared with lining up the door and latches. I think hinging the door so it doesn't bind up would be more difficult if you want to keep the same outer dimensions when the door is closed. I have several designs. Once I get a body to do some test welding on we'll see how they pan out. Maybe I'll build a kit someone can sell. Who knows.
I plan to have quite a few late night garage sessions involving a couple of friends a case of beer, scrap metal and welder.... probly a couple fire extinquishers.... anyway.
Well still ripping wiring out of the car so I can get the engine running again soooo...
Thanks to all so far for input regarding the engine. Since the poll so far is split 3 ways and unless I find a burning deal on an LS2 (a friend of mine keeps telling me to get an LS3, inside joke) I think I'm going with an LS1. The aluminum block and heads make it appealing for heat reasons. and the stock 350hp is great. From what I've read the 4l60e is only rated to handle 360ftlbs of torque and the LS1 puts out 365. I may need to look into a 4l65e instead since its rated to handle 380.
But I digress. I'll leave the poll up another couple weeks just to see if anyone has any other thoughts on the subject.
I'd personally go LT1, they're an extremely strong block, cheap too. You'll be able to make a heck of a lot more horses than an LS1, and not have reliability be an issue. Then again, I'm bias, I do not trust aluminum blocks.
That's what I would do, it's a very smart choice to me. Most people just like to be a part of that whole LS1/T-56 swap crowd, which is cool, but I'd prefer an even stronger block, coupled with the T-56.
Just get what is most affordable to you, and if money's not an issue, get what you choose. My vote is for the LT1 though.
I was leary of the aluminum blocks myself before I started looking into them. the stock corvette engine was an LS1 starting in the 90's if I remember correctly and produced 350hp. since I'm not having one built and decided to go the used route I figured this would be a great starting point. Plus the forged internal parts were very appealing. the Stock LT1 parts were cast iron, from what I've seen the aluminum and forged parts will be more reliable as long as I build in a better cooling system that what I have now. I've heard with aluminum that it is all about the cooling.
As for the rest, I'm working on the dashboard again and I've finally removed all of the wiring. I knew it was bad but I found more broken, burnt, crushed, melted, spliced and misswired leads. I've refitted all the old venting back into the car, and I'm cutting out the excess plastic from the old dash frame to make way for the upgrades I'll be installing later. I'm not keeping anything except for orrigional brackets and mounting locations. I'll cut the extras out later. Once the frame is done I'll work on new bezels and cover panels. The dash pad I decided to do separate so I can keep exposed mounting screws hidden and so I don't have to dismantle the entire dashboard if I need to rewire some minor electronics. I'll post more pictures when I can access my comcast account again. damn comcast.
back to work....
After careful consideration I've settled on an engine. I've taken all suggestions into consideration along with lots of web research and conversations with some gear heads I know and here it is.
After careful consideration I've settled on an engine. I've taken all suggestions into consideration along with lots of web research and conversations with some gear heads I know and here it is.
My future LS1
I see you live over in Maryland, I'm in DE, close to Rehoboth and Lewes beaches. When you get the swap done, care to race a good ol' Iron block SBC?
I'd lose so bad, it's not even funny. My Carb is running jets that are far too big for right near sea level, it bogs out down between 1,000 and 2,500, pretty bad. At least I get decent power above 3 grand though. If only FAST SBC EFI conversion kits weren't in the $4,000 range, I'd be in good shape.
At least Eagle sells a decent 383 stroker kit for $1,656. 4340 crankshaft, 6.000" forged I beams, -5.0cc forged Mahle pistons, 10.49 compression with 64cc heads. That'll be coming after my paint job.
Projects are just so much fun when you don't have tons of cash to throw away.
I know what you mean, the LS1 I'm looking at crate ships out of Ohio for around 5200. I'm hoping they'll come down after the first of the year. My luck they'll go up. I was only planning on spending 4k and that was to include motor and trans and wiring. But I'll probly bust my budget on the engine alone. The ECM, wiring, and drive by wire kit will cost around 1600, then I have to buy the trans. Going with a 4l65E. Found one on Monster for 1700. A little spendy but it's rated to 500hp and set up for high performance engines.
I don't know where I was going with that, but sounds like you've got a great project going there too.
I'm more into the modernizing/customizing work but I figure whats a great custom car with a crappy 305 that barely runs?
I'm more into the modernizing too, but it just costs so much cash. If I was to stroke my 350 to the 383 like I plan, get a black paint job, with paint bought from BMW, convert it to fuel injection with the FAST EFI kit, get a Tick Performance T-56 built and sourced from them, and some Boze Octanes to top it off, I'd be looking at nearly $20,000, with adding up other small details, plus the hours upon hours of labor.
I'd rather put that kind of money into buying a new house.
I hear ya. I'm trying to find that engine cheaper without going with used, you just don't always know what you're getting with a used motor. But with the 350hp the 700r4 and stock drive train won't cut it. I just looked, 1700 for trans, another 800 - 1700 for driveshaft, still haven't found a rear end. I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure the stock parts won't hold up to the extra torque.
At the moment I'm trying to get the new dash put together. I'll probly send the wife to the fabric store for the fleese, I just need to get the shape right so I can pour the resin. Then theres the problem of mounting the new gauges I still haven't ordered (600) and setting up new vents. I'll be using the stock ducts but I'll need to order new vents (I'm thinking billet ovals).
then there's wiring and painting and making sure I can remove it all so that I can do a full body off restoration in a few years.....
Ok sports fans. Today I've been working on the Dash mod and I've tried a dozen or so things over the past few weeks that haven't worked and finally found one I think will.
I'm using a wire mesh to get the basic shape of the dashboard cover and bezel. once I have it all covered I'lll start trimming and adding round rods and posts to give it some curves before I start covering it with fleese.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will be a good low budget build that will still give it a factory look once I'm finished. If not it will be a lessons learned that will also be useful.
