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I dont want this to be a "bitch and moan" type post. I just wanted to illustrate the issues one might face when moving to PA from a more lenient state on inspections, like NJ.
NJ doesn't take your wheels off to inspect your car. PA does.
Expect to have your rotors fail for being too undersized. Also expect other brake related failures. Any sort of microscopic leaks or whatever.
NJ doesn't drive your car around on the road to test it. PA does.
Expect to have any number of suspension components fail your safety test. This includes the obvious, struts/springs/shocks but also things like the torque arm or steering components. Anything that may be loose or generally worn out. Even though NJ puts your car on the rattle machine, it apparently isn't as fine tuned as an inspector.
Other things to watch out for is emissions. NJ sniffers are apparently not as fine tuned as PA ones, since you can pass NJ with less than half of the limits it imposes, then fail in PA a year or so later with multiples over, yet the engine will feel the same and exhaust will smell (via your nose) the same.
Lights also seem to have a tendency to fail in PA. Try it, move to pa, half of the lights around your car will die when you take it to inspection. They may not be dead when you turn it off and drop it off, but just after it will.
Also, you usually have to drop your car off in PA, inspections take half an hour or more (probably closer to an hour). That doesn't count waiting time. People coming from NJ, say goodbye to simply driving up, waiting 10 minutes while it's inspected and driving away.
Inspections in PA cost anywhere from 50 to 80 bucks. Dont let that fool you though, they'll find something you have to fix. Your car is over 15 years old, you should just assume that you need about 500-1000 bucks of work done to it to pass inspection.
In summary, This car went from being a general pain over in NJ taking care of and maintaining, to almost impossible to own in PA. I'm stuck with it now forever since i've put enough money into it now over the last 5 years to pay for 3. It feels like the entire world is against me driving my thirdgen as a daily driver.
I'm gonna go cry now ...on the inside of course, I'm not a girl.
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Last edited by safemode; 02-17-2009 at 03:35 PM.
Reason: stupid "i'm" should just be I
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So let me get this straight. Your car failed PA inspection with multiple problems with the brakes and suspension, and you're upset about it? How much more upset would you be if one of those problems caused you to total your car at 75 MPH on the highway?
To be honest though, it sounds like you got ripped off. Yes, they are supposed to road test the vehicles in PA, but every car I have ever owned or driven has been inspected in PA and never have I seen the mechanic road test it. Maybe because I and my parents don't got the scam artists at the dealerships? I have always gone to local garages that I trusted and had heard good things about. Once I didn't and they tried to charge me $850 to change the front wheel bearings and rear wheel cylinders in my Dodge Shadow. I told them to go **** themselves, did the work myself for $220 and got it inspected somewhere else. You don't have to have the car repaired at the inspection station. You can take it anywhere you want, and bring it back or take it somewhere else. I agree the fees are a lot, but its only once a year and its cheaper than the fine. Trust me on that one.
If you don't believe the mechanic, you can view the PA inspection laws and procedures on the state website.
Everyone in PA has had their car fail for stupid stuff, I've had cars fail for no horn and for the parking brake not working.
If you think PA is tough, you should try California sometime. Or even Maryland. A friend of mine moved to MD 2 years ago and his truck failed for stuff that wouldn't even be looked at in PA. The only advantage there is that as long as his registration stays current, he never has to get it inspected again. Of course, the downside is that people don't take care of their cars. I saw a Ford Taurus driving down the road with no doors on the passenger side last time I was there visiting him.
lol .. I just spent half the day trying to find out how high a cowl hood could be to be legal here. I agree about the lights too, they do always seem to burn out when it goes in for inspection. Is this one of the forums that have a "good mechanics" section??
Lights are always the first thing I check before I take the car in. I always go through the entire inspection procedure myself before I take it in. I used to stay at the shop and watch them inspect my cars, making sure they didn't pull any funny ****. With the guy I've been using the last 8 years though, he just tells me what it needs, if anything, and to fix it and bring it back. When I take it back he glances at it to make sure I did it, then slaps the sticker on it.
As far as a cowl, the law is nothing over 2" above the surface of the hood without a special exemption if you haven't found that already.
And no, I haven't found the "good mechanics" section yet if there is one. Not a bad idea though.
Thanks for info, that's what I heard too. 2" over dash. It's being redone in South Carolina & coming back north in a month or so ... I want it to be able to breeze thru inspections, emissions. I had a '94 from NC years ago but I lived in Lehigh at the time & they didn't do emissions.
I can't say I've ever heard of Perkasie PA? Is it just a visual there? IIRC, only Philly has actual sniffer tests. One nice thing about PA inspections, you can avoid the emissions part if you meet certain conditions. If you're registered as a classic/antique you don't have to pass emissions. Also, if you have had the car registered and inspected for at least a year in your name, and drive it less than 5k/year, you are exempt from emissions. Still have to do the regular inspection though. The second one is how I'm gonna get my V8 swap to pass since I'm going from MPFI to carb.
I started a post about the classic tags. See how much trouble it actually is. I do know of a shop that has gotten the un-inspectable to pass but naturally, hourly rate is high.
All my camaros are exempt from emissions.They dont come anywhere close to putting on 5000 miles in a year.I never have any problems passing inspection.The camaros usually go right thru.The only real time I have to spend money is when I first get one and they take care of everything it needs to pass.After that they pass without a problem.A normal inspection cost me like 60-65 dollars.The mechanic I use is a member of a local muscle car club that I hang around with and am friendly with alot of their members.I trust him very much and I know that he is not going to tell me the car needs something when it really doesnt just so he can make a few extra bucks.
I've heard about the nightmare of classic tags. I knew a guy once that was rebuilding a 79 Vette, he got classic tags and the exemption for the hood clearance so he could mount one of those huge scoops with the 3 red butterfly valves in the front on top of his blower. Looked great, but took him over a year to get everything and get it on the road.
My insurance is cheaper if I don't have the classic tags as well. One day I may go through the hassle, but it won't be till the car is completely done being modded and painted. Maybe in 10 years or so
I wasn't complaining, so much as observing some differences. I was never in any danger of crashing or falling apart going down the highway.
The lights issue. None had anything to do with blinking, braking/parking or headlights, or even the license plate not being illuminated. Nobody before even mentioned the fact that they were out, they look like reflectors.
Rotors being undersized had no issues at all. One of two things could have happened there, either the rotors warp or I bottom out the peddle a little before the pads are fully worn (which i'd probably hit the scratcher anyway). If the brakes are functional and the rotors aren't warped, then it shouldn't matter how thick they are.
The suspension components, i was planning on fixing anyway because i knew they were worn. But it was more of a ride quality issue, than a safety issue. It's not like things were bent or broken, he got me for my struts being stuck down. Basically you'd get the same effect in any lowered car. As long as the car doesn't bounce uncontrollably (and mine doesn't) it shouldn't matter if it feels like i'm riding on rails.
I'm not saying he made things up or i was hoping to skate by. I'm just observing how the different states decide to inspect things, and the one state considered the car fine, and the other state goes through a lot more trouble to find reasons why it's not. If i was driving in NJ, my car would be considered safe, the same car over in PA is not... and it makes the whole system of car inspection a little ridiculous. The way PA inspections are handled is why easily 70% of people i talk to just buy their stickers without an inspection. So instead of vehicles even half-assed inspected, you got a bunch of cars totally uninspected. I was one of the idiots who decided to stay legit.
I beg to differ on the inspection in NJ.....our 86 MR2 failed emissions numerous times due to very slight oil smoke at 6000 RPMs plus. Question, where if it is being driven sanely does that car run up to 6000 RPMs on the road? My highest shift was at 5 and that was because I launched it perfectly and it spooled up faster than I expected. Heel toes are at 3000-3500 rpms and regular upshifts are 2500-3000 rpms. I am half expecting my 84 TA to fail for some retarded thing like the surface rust on the sail panels. I've heard stories of cars failing for really screwed up things that I see in PA all the time. Emissions in NJ is imo far worst than PA. Cats are mandatory in NJ if the car was equiped from the factory with one. They do seriously look for something to fail the car if it is not as clean as it should be like mine with the primer and paint falling off.
Cats are mandatory if they were equipped with them in _every_ state. It's a federal law.
I've never had my car revved to 6000 during an emissions test in jersey. They take it to the equiv of about 30mph and test it and at idle. That's it.
The reason why you'd see PA cars driving around with valid stickers for things that would easily fail in jersey is likely due to the PA guy just buying his stickers. Everyone knows a guy and many MANY people just caugh up the money to buy the stickers than go through the umpteen things they technically will fail for.
In jersey, i failed for not having the cover on my fly wheel. I guess that's a little retarded, but i never failed for anything in Jersey that cost me more than a few bucks.
For emissions, i just retard my timing. It works for up to 5 years or so, then the cat is so dead that it just doesn't bring the levels down far enough. I wish i could get it setup so that i can remove the cat easily, then swap in a dead one for the year and then for test, swap in the good one so that i dont have to worry about ever buying another one again.
yall are getting jipped up north..i'm in louisiana and its only 10 bucks for your yearly inspection ..all they check is you lights,horn blinkers,insurance and reg and thats all
That's odd, I've yet to have a car in PA fail...and one of them if a 94 Corsica with 150K miles on it.
The state of PA does a safety inspection, it's required by law. I'm not sure why the shop drove your car around...that doesn't make sense.
Being that I grew up in NJ I beg to differ that it's easier, NJ is a pain IMO. I guess it depends what station you take it to in NJ and what shop you use in PA.
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The test drive is MANDITORY for a proper safety inspection in PA. If the inspector test drives your car, he is just doing his job. Inspection mechanics are constantly being watched and your $75 isn't worth him loosing his inspection license and possibly his job. Also NJ inspections are way less in depth than PA, a car can stop equally and be metal to metal where in PA we worry about how the car is going to work for the next year not just that day.. Rotors that are too thin can easily warp or even break/collapse under heavy braking. There is a minumim thickness stamped right on the rotor if yours are thinner than that you need new ones. Light bulbs go out all the time and they are cheap so no need to whine about that. These laws were put in place to insure the safety of the driver and the other people on the road with that driver. The difference between the two states is probably why your car needed so much like I said NJ has a much less stringent inspection procedure and also its every two years as opposed to every year like PA, alot more can go wrong in that period of time..
And fly, your car failed last year (ball joints, wiper blades, 2 light bulbs), you just chose to have me fix the car rather than leave without a sticker.
Technically, the guy is supposed to take the car on a road test. Most dont, because of time.
NJ has a more impartial system, and it's more lenient because they dont have the time to look at as much stuff. In NJ, the inspection station gets paid per car, period. That's why they will fail you for something stupid if you have something obviously wrong, they get to test you again and that's another sale. They have no vested interest in racking up repair costs. All they would care about is getting you to have to come back if they happen to find something wrong in the 10 minutes they spend looking at your car.
In PA, the shops that do the repairs are in control of determining what repairs need to be done to pass the test they perform. That's a whole lot of conflict of interest going on there. Also, in PA, many shops aren't doing much business these days, so they can take an hour or more checking the car. Though yes, because of the number of PA inspection stations, you have a much wider range of good inspectors to bad inspectors. It also means you have a much better chance of knowing one of these inspectors and skirting by, which is what most people i know do because i live over in Northeast PA above philly and there is a shop every 20ft.
It's also a good idea to never wait until the last minute to get the car tested. _every_ shop seem to get their parts from a guy who sells the most unbelievably expensive car parts ever, prices you couldn't even find online from any seller no matter how hard you tried. For instance, i'm the proud owner of 400 dollar rear disc iron calipers, yes the kind that had the safety recall that suck, yes the kind that you can get reman'd at autozone for 80 bucks. Such is the consequence of having to beat an expired inspection sticker the very next day and having some "guys i know" fall through in their ability to get the guy they knew to inspect the car under the table.
The guy isn't even a skeezy shop owner. He seemed genuinely cool and does his job well. I just know i wont be having anything repaired there again, at the very least not with parts he buys.
josh, you do inspections? i thought that wasn't the case. otherwise i would have went to you in the first place. :-/
I'm not complaining about what was done, just pointing out some differences. The high cost of the whole ordeal was my fault, I should have not waited so long then i could have bought the parts myself and did much of the work myself.
The rules are in black and white, there is very little up to interpetation for the inspector. If a guy misses something or is lazy and skipps things he is putting his livelyhood in jepoardy. Say he dosent fail you for rotor thickness for example. You leave with your new stickers and get into an accident that causes a fatality. The officers see the car has fresh stickers and takes down the information of the station and inspector that checked the car. The car is then torn down and checked (since we are hypothetically speaking of a fatal crash this is not uncommon). They find rotors dangerously thin and maybe some other safety issues that may or may not have been the cause of the crash. They then go back to that inspector for a little talk. If the inspector is lucky he just loses his license, if not he is going to jail for neglegent homicide.. Still think the inspector is just trying to generate business?
Yes inspections do generate work, (that is why we do them) but the actual procedure is serious business.
The state inspection regulations are available on the internet if you would like to "pre inspect" your car and repair anything that might cause you to fail you are well within your rights..
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Last edited by FORMULA355TPI; 02-20-2009 at 09:38 AM.
Bottom line is the inspection is for YOUR safety and being a car enthusiast these things should be maintained on a regular basis even more so than someone who just sees their car as transportation from A --- B.. The stickers should just be a formality!
Indeed, they are things that should be maintained and dealt with regularly. I was pointing out how many more things PA considers a point of failure for safety, versus what NJ considers. If NJ doesn't check rotor thickness for instance, but PA does, does that mean we see a lot more accidents from rotors destroying themselves on the road in NJ due to them being too thin? Maybe we dont, maybe it doesn't matter if we dont see the increase in accidents, it's still a safety issue. The point there being, that a state-to-state difference in what is checked and how it fails is stupid. Especially up here in the NE, where states are close together and we have cars from 3+ states driving on any given road all the time. We have federal emissions standards for this reason, it's weird not to have federal safety standards that are tested in the same manner.
With the PA system, I'm not saying that mechanics necessarily create issues where there are none, or knit pick more, just that the potential is there, and it creates a distrust between the consumer and the person testing their car, because that tester has a vested interest (in a purely monetary position from the consumer's perspective) to find as many things to fix, because while the person has the option to take the car elsewhere to get it fixed or fix it themselves, the majority of people wouldn't go through the trouble of re-scheduling and doing all that and would just get the work done there.
I'm not saying that's what happens, but that's the perception of what happens. And the idea that the guy is not gonna cut people they know or friends a break in the inspection because they can lose their license just doesn't match reality. Almost everyone i talk to either knows someone directly or has a friend who does who can get them the stickers without really looking at the car and they do it every year. It's wide-spread, and i think it is mostly due to the way inspections are handled in PA, causing people to not want to go through it. It's not really percieved as looking out for their safety, because of that percieved distrust in how they are the ones who benefit monetarily for finding things that fail, regardless over whether those things should fail - compared to how other states and such check their cars.
Most people who just get their car inspected year to year in the same state would be in your boat. They know what's failing, they know what to look out for next year and there are rarely any surprises. It's the people who are moving from state to state that can get blind sided. Which is why i think safety inspections should be handled like emissions inspections (though even those are about to change, ala california). If i could take my car through NJ and it passes safety but fails in PA, and the failures in PA are considered serious and not something stupid like bulbs out, then that's a serious problem for everyone. And if it's about safety, then PA drivers should be very pissed off that it's legal for drivers of states that do not have the same exacting safety inspections to drive on PA roads... that is exactly the same as having un-inspected PA drivers drive on the roads. So how effective is the program when a good portion of drivers are from out of state who aren't being as strictly inspected, and another good portion of in-state drivers are just getting their stickers on the side. The remaining few (like me) can feel good about their own car being safe,but that's not gonna mean anything when you get t-boned by the guy with faulty brakes. And thus the cycle of distrust in the whole system continues.
edit: Yes, i realize emissions vary state to state as far as if they test or how much and even within a given state. Which makes that whole program seem far less important than it should be to most people. What i meant was a series of federal guidelines and things to check off and the set of limits should be federally mandated and required as far as safety inspections go across the board. If it's for mutual safety, then it has to be mandatory for everyone, since you can't restrict drivers from one state from driving into yours, and unlike emissions, it only takes one person to make a huge (bad) difference. Not doing it that way makes it seem arbitrary, and that leads to dangerous widespread violation of the system.
In fact, the whole getting your sticker on the side thing has to do more with avoiding what is seen as an arbitrary emissions testing system than with avoiding a safety inspection, it's just you get both in one package. most of this illegal sticker activity could have probably been avoided if the emissions testing standards were the same across the entire state and in every state. The idea that some people get out of the expensive repairs associated with it just because of where they live, leads to most people thinking it's just BS. The distrust in the inspector (often the mechanic as well) is probably a distant second to that reason.
So to just squish that all into a small few sentences.
Anything that makes the inspections seem arbitrary leads to a failure in the system, as the people will start finding ways around it. In PA, the emissions testing leads to people buying the stickers on the side, and that leads to not getting the safety inspection since they come together. The safety test, itself, suffers from the problem on a national level as other states test less or test more or barely test at all, yet they can drive no the same exact road that you have to get strictly tested in order to legally drive on.
The other aspect that leads to issues with the system come from the apparent genetic distrust in mechanics, though that stems from the fact that the consumer doesn't understand how their cars really work so the tendency to feel cheated when they see the receipt is very strong. Compounded in PA is that the mechanic is often the inspector, so now not only are you forced by law to get your car looked at, but if you are distrustful of mechanics (at least ones you dont know, and the ones you do know dont have the equip to inspect your car) you are forced to have such people do the looking over.
I'm just saying that given those two factors, i can understand why a good amount of people avoid the system altogether. And the fact that those two factors exist and create a reality that puts drivers who follow the system into nearly a minority, makes those who do spend the money to do it right feel like idiots.
edit: and the whole blurb about parts cost gets into the distrust in mechanics. People see a price for a part that is anywhere from a little to 5 times the cost the consumer can get the part for even at local stores, not considering online stores. They dont understand why the mechanic charges them that much for the part and the obvious conclusion is that the mechanic charges a premium to take some extra money on top of what they charge for labor. I think people expect that to an extent, but 2-5 times the cost gets suspicious and often people just dont know the cost. I think part of the cost discrepancy is availability. I may have to order a part and wait or drive out to where it's at, while the mechanic gets their requested parts delivered the same day usually. But it's hard to know because nobody makes that apparent. Plus, many times a mechanic may state that if you supply your own parts, then there is no warranty. Now, i'm not sure if that is intended to mean on the parts (which would be obvious, since he didn't buy them) or on the service of installing them (which i think is implied but may be illegal to say explicitly).
