I didn't see this one coming. http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/04/25/pontiac.reaction/ Scaling down to fewer models would've been more preferable. Bummer if this is indeed the future. Definitely squashes a 5th gen Firebird line.

really?

From what I heard Pontiac out sold both Buick & Saturn so it makes perfect sense to get rid of them.

I wouldn't cry about it if I were you, I would just make sure your car is straight and has all the parts it needs. Park it and wait 30 years...

Look at AMG's or any other large auto manufacturer that has gone under, 20 years later cars are worth bank.

That entire company (GM) is in trouble.

These economic times are history in the making. Chevrolet might be next to close their doors if they dont pull their heads out of their ***.

All 3 of the Big 3 have been in downward spiral for some time now. I've been in the auto repair business for almost 20 years, and when American car owners spent alot for repairs, they would almost always say my next car will be a Toyota/Honda.

Little do they know, alot of those "imports" are being built here in the states.

Here is an interesting thought on that topic... Do you think it costs much more to build a Ferrari than it does to build a Corvette? How about a Camaro? Or even a mustang?
Of course you initial reaction is to say "of course it does" and that's why they cost more right? Well, you would be right and wrong, the only thing that costs more in building a Modena over a Corvette is the labor, dead serious, if fact, the more a car weighs the more costly it is to build it (more materials) Aluminum cars are actually cheaper to mass produce than steel cars (But you would need allot of new tooling) Small displacement 2.8-3.8L flat plane V8's make a hell of a lot of power 500+ at only 9000rpm's and consume less than two thirds the fuel of an equal power large displacement engine...
These are all facts that lead me to beleive the big three fell asleep at the wheel, have verry little to offer (Specialty cars, corvette, camaro ect) and thier main stream economic cars are just garbage, styling on most of these vehicles looks like people were just too afraid to do anything "different" which is what sets apart great cars from boring ones.

I could rant for a few more hours about this but I will save us all the time... But I am sure Ford, GM and ........... What was that other company? will be around for a long time, but they will be seriously different companies.

This was my initial reaction as well, but I'm just a sentimental fool and can't picture the world 40 years from now, where I'll be telling my grandkids about my obscure Pontiacs that I was so fond of during my younger days.

Let's hope it does play a factor in the value. Many a line has come and gone and I don't think has had a drastic impact on the sales until reaching the "classic" stage, if even worthy. 20 years from now will people care about Saturns/Kias that are extinct? The world is a different place now than it was 30-50+ years ago. Many more cars and models on the roads.

I had forgotten Oldsmobile conked out a few years ago and had been around since the late 19th century. Studebaker may be a better example; around since the mid 1800's, but has been defunct since around '66. Are they worth anything? Sure, to some.

I don't really have a point, just rambling and invoking conversation.

A 1972 Honda S200 is not worth much... But a 1972 Firebird is, catch my drift?

Although, i did think about taking one of those 72 Honda S200's and dropping an S2000 Motor in it. Call me a ***** if you like, but it would be badass.

Badass until you realized, "Oh **** im in a '72 Honda S200!?!?"

hahaha

Labor is exactly right. Exotic cars are not produced on an assembly line. I was reading an article about a 2009 Bentley, and the interior is cut & sewn together by a 20+ year veteran leather smith, While the dash and nose grill is hand built as well. BTW I got to drive a 09 Bentley in Carmel last year when I found the owners purse outside our hotel room. My reward was $100 & drive the Bentley up & down Ocean Ave.
Nice nice car, V12 Twin Turbo, droptop, worth every bit of $375,000.

After spending many years as both a mechanic and a mobile electronics installer I have been afforded many opportunities to drive all kinds of cars, Ferrari, Porsche, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Lambo, and almost any of the major brands. From all of that I learned that there is nothing made that I would be willing to trade my F-bodies for. It's not that I think it is the best made car in the world, but nothing has ever given me the same satisfaction or comes even close to my driving experience. For me the buck stops here, and I, for one will join Del in shedding a tear at the demise of pontiac just as I did when Olds went down. Call me a sentiment, or a nuckle dragging neanderthal (I've heard it all), but I prefer the older cars, and the classic American brands will always mean more to me than anything else.

I know it sounds trite, but for life. I may be sick, but at least I'm happy.

This truly is a sad day for bird owners.I took a ride in fryers 79 maro yesterday and i cant tell ya how much i miss my bird. Why in the hell did i take her apart lol. I just hope this doesn't effect the parts market because i truly don't have a lot left to do to her to get her on the road again. Well maybe in 10 years our birds will get the value they truly deserve!!!!

This should rase the value of camaros as well

QUOTE///////////there is nothing made that I would be willing to trade my F-bodies for. It's not that I think it is the best made car in the world, but nothing has ever given me the same satisfaction or comes even close to my driving experience./////////////END QUOTE

Fryer, thats like saying "supermodels aren't all that"

I get to "drive" alot of cars too, but I dont always get to "DRIVE" them the way I'd like to.
I drove a customers 03 Audi TT turbo whatever, & that was like driving a go kart on the highway. She was complaining about a high speed vibration at 80 mph after we put tires on it. I took it all the way to 100 several times, in a matter of seconds (with the customer) and if those cars didnt look so funny & cost so much I'd buy two.

I'd say for the money, Fbodies are pretty fun.

I would love to have an Exige... I would NOT love to pay $70,000 for one... Same goes for a Corvette.

Honestly, there are allot of cars I would "prefer" to have over my third gen, but I honestly would not like to pay for them either.
I am perfectly happy building a third gen and calling it my own then "renting" a really expensive sports car for the next 10 years only to find out after paying the thing off its only worth $10,000 when i spent north of 50K...

Look at corvettes! I see them going for 20K for the newer body style...
Why would you get butt screwed? Let someone else pay the big bucks then buy it later when its cheap.

That's why we all own 80's sports cars; its not because we don't like new sports cars, its because were not stupid enough to pay for them.

Someone should stick that in their sig...

you know that that is just media speculation ponitac isnt going anywhere nor is gm theres too much into the world economy the government wont or shouldnt let that happen.

and i hate the people who drive toyotas and hondas they should be drug out to pasture and shot. people dont realize how much more their import car is to own true cost to own. and that american cars are just as reliable and better in most cases.

Good analogy, supermodels are exactly like fancy sports cars; fun to look at but expensive to up keep, and just plain stupid for everyday use. Have you ever heard those supermodels talk? I'll keep my distance. Besides, truthfully I am not the least bit attracted to supermodels, I like my women to look like they are alive and not just skeletons wraped in skin. So for me supermodel (swimsuit models, tv and music stars, etc.) are not all that, just like those fancy sports cars. You guys are welcome to them and I'm not trying to talk anyone out of them, but I never have and never will give up my classic American muscle for ANYTHING. And I'll stick to my down home girl too.

My Toyota was mainly built in America by American workers and not built in Mexico or Canada for an "American car company". How do you explain that stud


Today's SacBee: Pontiac’s demise saddens capital-area aficionados..

"Millard noted, however, that some of Pontiac's excitement in recent years came from Australian automaker Holden, producer of a new-generation Pontiac GTO from 2004-06 and the current Pontiac G8 sports sedan.

Despite overseas production, Millard said "these cars have linear speed plus great handling; aficionados view them as the ultimate performance Pontiacs."

While auto industry experts bemoaned Pontiac's demise, some were critical of GM's handling of it."

partialy union and partially your fault for buying a toyota if they didnt have to undercut the costs of production or the damn union that wouldnt happen besides the gto is based off the holden commadore with 93% interchangability part of the austrlian division.

if it were up to me the goverment take over gm, redomesticate all production, and no more union they are half the reason gm is in trouble and ford and chrysler

while i agree with your sentiments about the union being a huge burden on GM, the answer is not a government take over... unless, of course, you want to kiss muscle, suvs, and luxury cars goodbye. in todays rampant worship of the global warming god, all those vehicles are under attack by precisely the folks currently in power. the federal government has no business in the private sector... it's so far afield of their intended purpose it's frightening. a wise man once said, "be careful what you ask for."

damn those unions for providing middle class wages and good benefits !!!

30 bucks an hour to tighten bolts is a little much. thats why you get better bang for your buck with imports.

why is it too much? better yet, why are people, like yourself, more worried about why somebody is making a decent wage for something they believe to be easy instead of worrying about something more important like why you're getting paid sh*t to do what you believe to be more difficult?

i personally have no issue with what anyone EARNS. i would note that $30hr is not mearly decent. most households need two people to get that wage. still, i have no problem with it. further, i understand our countries history and the important role the union has played. however, there are countless examples where unions, by their very nature, cause an undue burden on the companies and government entities that employ them.

i will give you a personal example: a few years ago, i worked for the city of fresno water division. each group (electricians, pipe setters, water techs, etc) was part of a union and therefore, clear lines were drawn concerning who could do what. i don't know how many times i saw an entire crew mill around for two plus hours because they were waiting on an electrician to show up and reset an electric motor drive (literally pushing a button). there are good people who are members of unions. there are also a lot of people who promote that union mentality. the devil is in the details... ignoring the implicit waste responsible for the increased cost of doing business when a union is involved is akin to sticking your head in the sand. the fact is that gm is at an economic disadvantage in the marketplace due in part to concessions they've agreed to over the years. the tab has come due and there's no money. very similar problems with the state government there in california. it's just reality.

I agree with you as far as the average house hold needing 2 incomes to come up with $30 dollars an hour. However, you're implying that because so many jobs don't pay what they should that the auto industry and the UAW should also screw over employees instead of the employees being able to put a few dollars away for a rainy day. The fact is we are losing the middle class. You're either rich or you're barely getting by. I don't know what the cost of living in AR is, or IL for that matter, (since we are talking about Detroit more or less), but $30 an hour here in California, especially the bay area, you are far from being rich (might know that since you've worked in Fresno). I am glad that you are educated enough to know what unions have done for this country since now a days it seems like everybody forgets that their 8 hour work days, weekends, benefits, safety measures, minimum wages etc etc all come from unions.

Seeing how you've worked in Fresno, you know cheap labor is in no short supply here in California. Unions cause an undue burden on companies? I guess that's one way to look at it, these execs are getting richer by the minute yet when a few blue collar employees want enough to support their family and still have a dollar or two to take them out to the movies on the weekend, people are in an uproar about it because jose who hopped the border would have done it for 75% cheaper.

Here's some facts for you guys, the top 1% of families in this nation own 34% of the nations net worth. The top 19% of this nations familys own 50% of this nations net worth. While the bottom 80% owns 15.3% of this nations net worth [(wage and salary workers) and probably you].

The big 3 are definitely in a pickle, corporate greed, poor marketing, history of poor products, etc etc are all contributing reasons to why they're doing poorly. Should the UAW budge some? Absolutely, everybodys in it together, i just find it funny that people are pointing fingers at the average $27 or whatever it is dollar hourly blue collar employee when these execs are still going home with million dollar bonus's at the end of the year. Give me a break.

i have implied no such thing. my point here was simply that $30hr is far north of decent as evidenced by the average. i also stated clearly that i have no problem with that amount. to put things in perspective, a union job paying ~ $30hr doesn't stop there in total cost to the employer. in the case of the uaw, the benefits package is typically good for a minimum of an additional $10hr (a very conservative estimate). the point here is not to begrudge anyone for what they earn based on envy. it's to point out the fallacy of killing the golden goose. what is reasonable based on the marketplace?

executives clearly make an obscene amount of money. the rich get richer... yes this is true. welcome to capitalism. but let's be clear, these are indeed the few. the combined amount they cost the big three is a pittance in the grand scheme of things. the big three employ over 180,000 active workers and over 540,000 inactive workers for a staggering total of 720,000 people. these are people with the best benefits packages in the nation. what's the biggest cost associated with these benefits? you guessed it, healthcare! why these costs are skyrocketing is a discussion for another day. but in the end, it's simple math really. if the automakers could afford it, i'd take no issue. i'm not jealous of anyone... including the executives.
with regards to jose, don't delude yourself. there are masses of u.s. citizens who would do this work for less. these jobs offer premium pay with gold plated benefits. you'll have to excuse me if i don't shed a tear.

i suppose the "etc etc" is where you plug in unions... *cough*
all you have to do is look at u.s. based toyota to see the difference. their workers are well compensated and yet all things being equal the big three's labor costs are much higher. i guessing that's where you plug in things like corporate greed, poor marketing, and a history of poor products. give ME a break! while i respect your opinion and empathize with your point of view, i must disagree with your conclusions. but i digress. whatever the cause, i'm sorry to see pontiac go.

Talk about invoking discussion.

This has been an insightful thread thus far, let's keep it that way fellas.

as far as wages, my thought/question is how do we determine what job deserves how much?

in any job i think the more experienced and efficient workers should be paid more, no doubt.

but when it comes to the job itself, what factors determine how much one should be paid?

in a factory, a person may just tighten bolt, pretty easy, but they must make them tight enough to where the vehicle is safe for the person that will be driving it.

i myself work in retail, a supermarket to be exact. sure i just scan things and push buttons. but unlike the factory people, i have to deal with the customers when they're unhappy, and trust me, they aren't pleasant.
i also work in other departments, one of them with the tags/prices. i have to make sure the tags are correct when replacing and up to date or else the store will lose money.
i recently started working in the pharmacy as well, bottling up the prescriptions and selling them to the customer when they come. i have to make sure when i bottle the prescriptions that they are exact.
all that and more and i'm making 8.85 an hour. i've been there for a year and a half.

i could go on and on talking about more jobs and things they do, and im sure that you guys can do the same.

like i first said, i just wonder how you can (or how you should) determine how much a wage should be.

should it be determined by the physical labor?
should it be determined by the mental labor?
how about how important the job is?

or should wages just be determined by how hard the person breaks their back to make sure the job was done right

there are a number of factors that typically influence how much a job pays. they are the industry, type of work, region, physical risk, education requirements, level of experience, and difficulty. the least of these is probably difficulty and the rest are not scaled linearly. further, there are two job markets: public and hidden. public meaning employers that post openings in some fashion. hidden referring to employers that don't. many times, good jobs don't go to the brightest, most qualified or capable applicants. more often, they go to someone who knows someone.
want a high paying job? pick a leading industry that will be around for the foreseeable future (like healthcare) or a niche that will never go away (like deathcare). next, do a little research on jobs in that industry but more importantly where those jobs are. for example, i happen to work in the power industry. if i were looking to break into this industry, i'd have a much better chance in texas than in say oregon. finally, work on equipping yourself with knowledge/experience. sometimes it's tough to get your foot in the door to gain experience and education can be a viable substitute. or... you can take a huge shortcut if lady luck happens to smile on you and you happen fall into something just by being in the right place at the right time.
fair?? not usually! however, work hard, apply yourself and over the long run you'll more than even the odds.

Evidence by the average? Just because the average person makes less than $30 an hour (myself included) it certainly doesn't mean that $30 is far north of decent. Look at any 3rd world country (or even better, why not china) and you'll see my point. Average has absolutely NOTHING to do with fair or decent, which my wealth distribution #s more than show (that you so nicely left out of your quoting me.)

Ofcourse there are masses of U.S. citizens that will do the work for less, have you seen the unemployment rate lately? Pointing a finger at the union is just ridiculous when you consider the fact that the unions well being goes hand in hand with the company. The UAW has no reason to want the big 3 to fail, not by a long shot. Contracts were agreed upon by the union AND the company, yet you think the union employees should be the ones to fit the bill because the companys didn't plan for a rainy day? really? As long as execs make the following

"The CEOs of Chrysler Group, Ford and GM earned a combined total of $24.5 million in salaries, bonuses and other compensation in 2006.

The next four highest paid executives received average salary and other compensation of $1.3 million at Ford and $1.4 million at GM. These substantial sums do not include the value of stocks and stock options that were also part of executive compensation."

They can afford it. I'll get into actual labor costs below...simple math, remember?

or how bout the economy being the etc etc? How many people at AIG were union? Maybe you should pay twice your mortgage because obviously the banks are failing and it's your responsibility to make sure they succeed right? Automotive sales are down across the board. Your toyota and honda plants are union in japan...imagine that. I won't argue that labor costs are higher amongst the big 3. However with labor costs only make up about a 7% average of the total vehicle cost you seriously believe that this alone will bring the big 3 back on track? Ball park maybe? More non union companys are sending jobs over seas than union ones, please explain to me why that is.

I could get into how Toyota "providing" jobs for Americans are actually taking many more away, but it's time for beer and hockey, plus i've spent enough time on this for the day. However before I leave, another question for you vexter. What is it that you do? Own your own company?

jes,

my world view is not based on my current circumstance. i'm not rich and i don't own my own company. as stated in my last post, i work in the power industry. to be more specific i am currently titled as a control room operator. however, i'm also qualified as a senior instrumentation and controls technician and i regularly draw upon those skills to enhance the operation and profitability of the plant where i work. i don't bring this up to pat myself on the back but to point out that this activity would not be welcome in a union plant. i earn in the $30ish per hr range. how is any of that germane to the topic at hand??

in reading your response, i get the sense that you believe that everyone who is not rich is by definition underpaid. here's my core belief: i believe that if being rich was important enough to me, i could achieve it. further, i believe the same is true for every other average ordinary joe. i don't believe anyone is owed anything. there, how's that?

i spent the last 20 minutes writing an exhaustive response and in the end it doesn't matter. not only has this discussion gone far afield of the original topic, but i'm clearly not going to change your mind... and that's okay. i'm content for you to have the last word, should you care to have it. as i said, you're welcome to your opinion and i respectfully disagree. best i can do...

Hi Aaron!

hey trav!!

Well, I own my company, and I got to tell you...its great.

I love being the boss, come & go as I please, change whatever I want,
I got to tell ya, Its awesome, but it doesn't come without carrying a heavy load.

As an auto repair business, I need to focus on good quality repairs, customer satisfaction, employing properly trained technicians, and building on my continued success. If I don't complete those basic tasks, I will be in the same trouble as the Big 3.

As far as compensation is concerned, people usually get paid for what they're worth and what the market will bear.

Just my.02

I would happily take $20 an hour to go wrench on gm's cars all day...
That's, more than I make now as a design engineer... as sad as that is.

Wonderful guys, I heard y'all all the way from Arizona!

Part of my advice to young people about choosing a career is to "find something you like to do, then figure out how to make money doing it". I work on cars for a living. I've always liked working on cars. When you like what you do it makes going to work a lot more enjoyable.

Cool gig, sounds like you're doing half way decent. I am sure you do your job well as a control room operator, and more than likely know what you're doing as a instrument/control tech. You are correct in saying your jumping from job to job/field to field would not be allowed in a union plant, and I completely agree with people not being allowed too. There are way too many injuries/deaths that come from people working on equipment that they have absolutely no formal training/qualification/certification in, all because companys are trying to save a buck (which is why everything's going overseas anyways but i'll save that for another day). This corporate brain washing and union busting that's been going on for god knows how long is pretty amazing actually. Employees barely getting by, more worried about the companys well being than their own all because of fear campaigns and because people aren't smart enough or don't care enough to educate themselves on the matter.

Your actual occupation has nothing really to do with the conversation at hand, however if you did own your own business I am sure you're smart enough to figure out the conflict of interest . Before you ask, I am not in any Union (if you even care).

Not at all my friend, I'm stating that just because somebody makes an above average wage (we can even break it down to that specific field) it doesn't automatically mean that they are overpaid...which you obviously do think is the case (you did say that didn't you?)

I am glad you believe you could be rich if you truly wanted to, that doesn't mean that your belief in self wealth is anywhere near fact, by any stretch of the imagination. I really want to get into how this relates to peoples belief in god/s, and how just because somebody (me in this case) can't disprove it that your argument holds any weight. We'd be WAY off track once we start down that path so lets not, i'm sure you get what i'm saying regardless. I could make 10 million dollars tomorrow...i just don't want to...see what i mean?

Pet peeve Vex, I could tell Travis that 3x3 = 9, and he could tell me it = 6. I could tell him he's wrong and show him/tell him why, and he could reply with "that's your opinion and I have mine."

Opinion - a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

Fact - something that actually exists; reality; truth:

I've tried to show you why the union has absolutely nothing to do with the pickle that the big 3 are in, and why, even if they did/do have something to do with it, that it is far and from their responsibility to do anything about it (even tho their fates are intertwined) yet now it's just my opinion. Oh well. Have a good one Vex

Somethin to think about

Opinion Vs. Fact

AMG? Wish I would have known. I sold one 4 years ago for just $150. Had a bad head. It was the ll wheel drive wagon. Lol Dont think it was worth much more. If so, im sorry to say that it was junked by the guy that bought it from me.

JesasaurusRex

....looks like you're trying out once again to get on Jim Crandell's (TV Fox 40) "Crybaby of the Week"

Ok so I didnt take the time to read all the thread, but I know what its about. I have to say, that I am very sad that Pontiac is going away. My very first car was a 78 Firebird. I got it when I was only 12 years old. I loved that car till I got it fired up one day, & took off in it. It was taken away, & my parents sold it. Dad didnt think I was any good at turning a wrench. Yet lol. We owned a tow lot back then, & the house was up front. I would come home from school every day, & work on that car (among others). I hated to see my Firebird go, almost as bad as the brand. Its another sad "Pontiac" day.

Man you guys grow up fast in them neck of the woods .

My first car (high school) was a 68 firebird. I still have parts from that car that have sentimental value.

Ya whats funny is that I was born, and raised right by ya. Cool huh. I was born in Hayward, & grew up in Merced county. When we had the tow lot we lived in Ceres (in scandeless slause county).

I started driving when i was nine, and in the 6th grade was going to friends houses in mom's cars. Mom was one cool lady. Shes been gone for a 8 years now, but I will never forget driving down the canal banks in the Scottsdale, that had a Pontiac 400 in it, with mom on the pass. sd, while my 5th grade g/f was in the center. Dad didn't know about any of it.

Right after dad split to Mo I would sneak out. Mom caught me one night. She just said, that no son of her's needed to jump out the window, & all I needed to do was walk right out the front door. I had gobbs of respect for her. I had a strange childhood ya, but id do it all again in a heart beat.

as a parent, i had a hard time being that "hands off" with my kids. by the time they started hitting their early twenties, i started getting the hang of it...

Ya its a hard thing to do for sure. I have a 5 year old son that I let do what he wants. Just started letting him go out in the neighborhood with his friends. The first day I just told him to be home when it starts to get dark. Well it started to get dark, & he was walking home, as I was going to get him. I was like "what are you doing dude" he was like "going home". I asked why. He said "cause its getting dark". That was a very proud day for me.

My son was sitting on my lap steering my car, at the age of 3. In the country of course. He did OK, but he wont be going at it alone for a long while. I think ill wait till he gets a d/l. Just like him to have the choices, as well as the freedom to become his own man like I did.

Best thing that I can remember to come from that, is the communication, & friendship between my mother, & I. Like me, he is my first born.

Business is also alot about who you know, I know a moderator...

least ya know somethin ...

of coarse not hes too busy prepping for his next street race.
hes too cool to show up in person.
i need my tire patched.

I tried that for many years. I love working on cars, and always have, nothing gives me more satisfaction. I worked as a wrench for many years, but unfortunately in my little hole in the woods, the automotive market is a lot like the tides of the ocean. Summer time can get you $1000+ a week, but winter time your lucky to make $100 a week. It was ok being a young batchelor, but it is no way to take care of a family the way a man should. I know, move somewhere you can make a good living at it, but the truth is that I love it here in my small mountain town. I can't stand the hustle and bussle of big city life, and there is no other place I would want to raise my kids. So I've taken an ok job with decent (and reliable) pay to support my family. To satisfy my desire to build and modify cool cars I am working on turning the small shop I rent into a small buisness dedicated to the f-bodies and classic American cars. With almost 0 overhead I am hoping that this small venture may turn into something regular that I can do daily once I retire in another 19 years. So I guess as you said, "find a way", it just happens that mine is a long time in the making.

On a note to the original topic, I heard the news on the radio talking about the demise of Pontiac. I couldn't help but shed a tear or two. Pontiac, you will be missed. for the memories!