I am about to install an LT1 in the bird, and Im looking at building a pretty fast car, in the not so distant future. Im looking at a 355-383, all forged, with a possible 2 stage nitrous system. The overall goal is 11s on motor, and whatever I can get on spray. Maybe more, if the engine does well of the spray. Im wanting to make it a fast street car (that will NOT be raced on the street, itll be used at the track for the street fights), so Im going to stick to drag radials. Im thinking a 275, or 295 width. And a 60 series side profile. Anyway, Im wondering about the suspension. I have no clue how to make it hook. When the nitrous gets put on, itll be on a progressive controller, so it wont shock the suspension. But this isnt going to be a national event car. I know the basics of suspension, but thats not much. And I dont want to throw parts at it. So, what do you guys use, and how effective is it? Airbags? Lift bars? Adjustable LCAs? The car is all stock now, but will get SFCs soon, I hope, and an adjustable torque arm. Also, I plan on having an S60 rearend from Strange engineering. Im just wanting to know which way to go with the parts shopping. What works, and what doesnt?

Click on the banner above, or the right for all your suspension needs. www.spohn.net They are great peices. Go for the panhard bar, lower control arms, relocation brackets. The front there is coil over set ups, tube k members, A arms. Touque arm go with a adjustable peice.

s&w subframes/torque arm
tubular k member/a-arms
moroso trick front springs
rear lower control arms
relocation brackets
drag sway bar
adjustable panhard rod
koni spa-1 shocks all around

Sometimes a little initiative goes a long way. There is probably 30 of these threads in the past few months that all ask about a drag type suspension.

Amazing. I spent 2 hrs searching the drag race section, and the suspension section. I also browsed the first couple pages of any section that I felt was relevant, and found NOTHING on a drag radial suspension. There are 450,000+ threads, and even after searching with 0 results, theres always somebody that wants to come in and tell you to do a search.

I know for a fact that I have replied with similar lists to those above at least 10 times in the past 2 months. I also have mentioned that drag radials are not as forgiving as slicks and without expensive suspension setups they just flat out do not perform as well. If track prep goes away so does your ability to hook. So purchase double adjustable shocks/struts which are big $$$$ to run drag radials or if it's just a fun car, then buy an extra set of rims and run slicks.

Also your thoughts of an 11 second car then 2 stages of nitrous, I'd be dropping that chassis off to a chassis shop to get a 10 point cage and subframes welded in immediately for the ET that car should be capable of. Don't forget the built TH400 and converter for 2k, the moser 9" rear for 2800, the driveshaft for $300, $1500 for the cage for just mild steel, 2g's plus for chro moly, another $1200 for the double adjustable shocks/struts, $5k for the motor minimum, $2k to do the nitrous right......that's not counting fuel system, aftermarket EFI, or a billet carb, etc etc etc.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/or...html?highlight (Ladder bars?)


O look a link and Xpndbl3 responded in it...

I know radials wont be easy. Its the street fights, so no slicks. And its a streetcar, so I wouldnt want slicks anyway. I might go with some DOT tires occasionally, but not all the time.

Its not cheap, I know. But I dont have $25k in the bank, so its whatever I can get first. I have the engine, so its going in first. And the SFCs, and rollcage will follow, just as soon as I can afford it. I talked to a potential engine builder today about a 383 (LTx) that should go 11s. The N20 will be added when the car is ready for the E.T. After the rearend (s-60, not a 9"), and the SFCs, and the LCAs, and torque arm, etc... I just needed to know what NOT to waste money on. Like lift bars? I havent heard any mention of them. And airbags for the springs?

i wouldn't race once without subframes, not to mention if that thing hooks the trans or rear will be the next to explode with an 11 second combo, hope you're working overtime to pay for all this

When i built mine i did everything azzed backwards, which in the big picture is the correct way to save yourself possible sheet metal damage from hitting walls...but that's a very hard concept for guys just wanting a fast slip to understand, but i'll bore you anyhow LOL!!

Start with the cage, if your doing it, do a 10 or 12 point from the get go, the car will be gutted for a 6/8 point anyhow, just do it right once so it's done and your not wishing you would've done it right the first time when your pulling the interior back out again a second time to add in bars....if your installing the cage, you can also add the subframe connectors, but it's not a necessity, added weight, but the 10/12 point will tie all points so, well, subframes are "pointless" LOL....josh has got jokes

Now your body is safe from roll over's and will pass tech for the speeds you some day hope to aquire....at this point, the rear end upgrade...i blew through 4 stockers running 13.00's and only 1.7-.8 60's, sure there are a few guys on here getting lucky, factor in your going to use junk (cough cough) drag radials so you'll be spinning/slipping a bit coming out of the box so that will let your stocker live a bit longer since it wont be dead hooking like a DOT slick would....but give the rules a look see and if DOT approved slicks are approved, run'em..dead hook EVERY pass...if your varying more than .01 per pass in the 60', you've got serious problems and you'll be chasing your tail trying to tune the car since a zeroxed time slip will not be possible as the day goes on and track temps change....so beefy rear end and tires next.

Tranny and driveshaft, if your going to get a transbrake (recommended for R/T consistency) go straight to the TH400, if it's going to be a footbrake only, you can save a bit of power by using the TH350...but the TH400 is always the better choice of the two, always. Install a transshield or the better choice for ease of fitment, a JW bellhousing onto whatever trans your going to run since at the speeds you want, it's required, along with SFI approved flexplate, but the aftermarket bellhousing is alot stronger and fits better in these tight undercarriages.

3" steel driveshaft with SOLID 1350 yokes on both ends...you'll have to get a 1350 yoke for the transmission output shaft as well as a 1350 yoke for the rear end as well.

Now, if you've noticed, i've yet to say anything about suspension upgrades....hmmm, well, reason being, these chasis in stock form can and will put alot of power to the ground...it might not be the perfect set up or bullet proff set up, but it will take it and get you down track just fine....point being, with what you want to do, you HAVE to bullet proof the drivetrain from the firewall back, that is where most of the expense will be, but you can always hold off on the big engine, run whatcha got for now...that way when you put the grinder in, the car is ready to take it on ddriveline wise...this is how i did my build and am happy i did, last thing i needed was to ruin car body by axle snapping, driveshaft snapping, tranny letting go and spinning me out into a wall thanks to trans fluid on the track, etc....

Front suspension-
trick springs and aftermarket struts...i've had good luck with the lakewoods and moroso spring set up, but to each his own

Rear suspension-
i'm still on stock springs
lakewood shocks
tubular lower control arms
Jegs adjustiable tq arm....but i want to go back to a long bar since the short bar puts ALOT of weight on the tires and wears out the sidewalls very fast, plus it transmits more energy into the chasis so overall it's more forgiving, so i guess i'd recommend doing a long torque arm right off the batt...granted i'm dead hooking with my jegster currently, but at $400/month during racing season for tires, it gets old quickly changing them obviosuly...plenty of rubber left, but sidewalls are just shot.
I used air bags initally, but after installing the Wolfe Craft anti roll bar, i wish i'da used the air bag money and put it into the racing anti roll bar....it's impossible to even put these two anti roll methods in comparison...the wolfe craft roll bar will not let the car twist so it hits both tires equally, plus it give you tunability so if the car leaves left/right out of the box, you can adjust a end link and get the car leaving straight as a string.

There, i'm done LOL!!

Thanks for the input guys.

The rules allow any DOT approved tire, and you have to have all the equipment for your E.T. Thats about it.

I wanted to do the engine, because I have it, and I HATE the LO3. Plus I didnt want to look like a tool driving around in a car with an 8-10 pt rollcage, and 16 second timeslips. And the only reason Im going ahead with the bigger engine is, I found the "good" engine I bought had water in the cylinders. So now it needs a rebuild. While Im in it, I might as well get the forged stuff. I might have to skip the head/cam upgrade for awhile, because the builder is already talking about expensive torque converters, and then the upgraded fuel injectors, $$$ TB and intake porting, etc...

After the swap, it will have just regular BFG radials till I get ready. I guess I made it sound like Im going to be trying to go real fast now. I will run it after the swap, but Im expecting lots of smoke, a low E.T., and a higher mph. But itll be on regular radials, a 275/50 to be exact. If Im lucky, I might go low 12s like that.

When I get the money, Ill go ahead, and get the rearend, and then its time to get serious. Ill have to check on a rollcage install. We can bend and fab tubing at work, but I dont think I want to deal with it.

I have a 4L60E, and theres a trans shop on CamaroZ28.com that says they can support over 700hp. They say it only becomes a problem, if the 60' drops below 1.60s. Id rather not get into a 350 or 400, because of the computer, and all that. I know a guy up the street going thru it, and Im going to try and get by with the 4L60E.

The car might not ever get 2 stages of nitrous. But it will get one. And Im doing everything I can to get a good base for the juice. It shouldnt be a problem getting a 420hp engine from an LTx (except for the money ). And it being an all forged 4 bolt, itll take 200-250hp of spray. Thats about a metric butt-load of hp, so I know there will be carnage. But, Im gonna try and be smart and play it safe, and hopefully itll all be cool. Im so anal now over how the car looks, I just want it to run as good as it looks.

I just needed to know what suspension stuff you guys on radials use. I figured with radials, the 60' might be squirrely, but higher than a 1.60-1.70. And then the nitrous could come in on the prog controller, and carry me to the big end. I might have to re-think some of this, though.

And Id love to shut up a few friends who drive for the other *cough* Ford * cough* team.

Another user posted this the other day:
"You build a car from the ground up, not the motor back."

I think that sums it up real well. I dont remember the username, but I will say that is not mine. Props to the guy who posted it.

That's the best advice anyone can give. Too many people build a powerful engine and don't consider the rest of the chassis or driveline.

There is no difference between suspension for slicks or suspension for drag radials. The suspension doesn't really care what kind of tire is on the car. You can have every trick piece of suspension but if the tires or track conditions are poor, no suspension will help get traction.

Suspension is a tuning aid. The more you can tune it, the more adaptable it is to changing conditions. Above posts all give good replies to what should be done to third gen suspension to make it better but it all boils down to traction. There are cars with fantastic suspensions and tires that only run 12's and others with basic suspension and drag radials running 9's or quicker.

for a drag car don't bother with a 4L60E, it'll be 2 grand a rebuild and it won't last long.

totally agree. its a huge waste of money unless you plan on daily driving the car.
also, i wouldnt spend a dime on the motor save for maybe a cam. you can haul major *** with a stock LT1 in a well setup car. with 2 stages of nitrous, you can go 9's with one fairly easily. (as far as the motor is concerned)

yes, but from what i'm gathering his sole intention is just the test and tuner guy, goto the track once in a great while, get a fast time slip to show off to buddies or race a buddy's car and that's that, not a weekend tool used to make money...so the OD will prolly suit him just fine actually, he'll be slower, but for his out of town trips it will work really well.

ok so basically i'm late to the argument again.. listen to IHI, Stephen, diggler and xpndbl3.. they know their stuff.. i agree 100% to everything they say..

THIS is the exact reason guys do things assed backwards, they're worried about what other people will think/say....who gives a fock, they're not financing your project you are. yeah, i felt weird running 13's caged, but i knew where the car platform was ultimately going, car guys and racers know how the process goes when building a car and that things dont happen overnight to make that happen, but it's like building a house....do you start by shingling the roof...nope, you the foundation first and work up....most guys like getting the cart before the horse, and when they get further along in the project they look back and understand why guys that have been there done that have laid out the map in such a way so the new guy does'nt make the same mistakes they did that wasted alot of time and money.

when people get over the self conciousness of what the tools standing behind the fence are thinking/saying, life becomes much easier....and remember, your the one on the track, not standing behind a fence...baby steps my freind, babysteps....you dont just run and jump into a 10 second or faster ride right off the batt, you pay your dues and work upto it to gain experience...if your trying to go with 2 stages of juice, and crazy timeslips, you need to do this right-ONCE!!!!! ask me how many tens of thousands i've wasted doing and redoing because i thought i was smarter or wanted to be different and did'nt listen to older/wiser guys than me...looking back it's sickening....so for your own sake, deal with being slow, i wont tell anybody...the best thing to offset slow, is to show up, race, kick azz and go far or win each event, and pretty soon guys will be scared to line up with the 16 second car since odds are good your gunna trailer them....you'll get alot more respect having a slower car you know how and use to make money by going rounds, vs being the fast guy that gets made fun of because of all the money they have into the car and cant make it out of first round...believe me, those are the guys that get alot more flack than the slow guys since money dumping and clueless is funny to the guys in the know.

<---taking notes, I wish I got some of this info before I bought my heads and cam but I'm glad I went mild instead of all out on the 1st try. Anyways, some good pointers in here and IHI knows so much about these cars along with the others who have posted and been there

Thats about it. It wont always be a driver, but it will for now. I think if I can get 11s, or a few 10s once in awhile, Ill be golden. Of course, it wont always be like that, and I know from watching, and listening, I wont stop there.

As for the engine, I think the builder and some friends of mine are going to reel me back into reality on it. So, it might not be as radical as I was hoping. Im looking at a 355-383, but only forged pistons, and rods. And I might have to do a mild head port, and cam for awhile, till I can get the stall, and injection to run the big heads and cam. So, think of it like a mild 355, with forged pistons, on a single shot, maybe a 150-200? Thats nowhere near radical, or undrivable, maybe 365-380 hp on pump gas, and I wont look stupid driving around looking like its alot faster. Then I can get the chassis/suspension going, and build the engine bigger last. I know I shouldnt care, but there arent alot of third gens here running, mostly r!cers, and 4th gens. And I get absolutely NO respect or support from the locals. A 19 second honda is cool, but an f-body on the way to 11s or 12s is still a joke to them. Im just going to let the car do my talking.

I appreciate all you guys giving me advice. My favorite drag racing site got shut down, and I knew you guys could keep me from buying junk I dont need.

I bought my car to start the 1999 season. I'm now going into the 2008 season and it's nowhere near what it looked like in 1999. It was street legal and running low 15's when I bought it (needed a lot of work and had a lot of mismatched parts). It's taken me this long to get it into the mid 9's but not without a lot of mistakes and broken parts along the way.

Since the majority of us are bracket racing our cars, speed means nothing. So what if your car runs 12's and a Mustang runs 11's or a Honda runs 10's. Faster cars don't always win in a bracket race. Anybody can throw money into a car to make it fast. No matter how much you spend, someone will always spend more. It's fun to go faster but unless you're competing in a heads up race, you don't need to go fast. If you do compete in heads up competition, there's usually a lot of rules to make the cars roughly equal in performance so again it becomes who can spend the most money to make the car faster under the class rules. Eventually everybody in the class is spending more money to do the same thing and the cars are all running the same times again. At least in a bracket race, everyone has a fair chance of winning no matter what they drive or how fast their budget allows their car to be.

Most of the time I don't even know what kind of car is in the other lane. I check the dial in just to see if I leave first or not then completely ignore the other vehicle. I don't care if it's a Chev, Ford or Dodge. It's just another racer trying to do the same thing I am. Don't get hung up on "I have to beat that Ford" mentality. It also takes a whole lot more money to build a 9 second Honda than it does to build a 10 second Camaro. Want to go fast? Ditch the car and buy a dragster or an altered. A mild SBC in either can easily run 10's with little to no maintenance and it's a lot easier on parts.

Just wanted to check in on the 4l60e topic. IMHO you'll be fine with a 4L60 for a street/strip car if it is built. I had my 700R4 done by FLP Transmission and have been in the nines the past 2 years on it.

different strokes for different folks.... some people enjoy trying to run the same number every single pass, and some people enjoy trying to go as fast as possible with a given set of rules. money is involved with both types of racing.

Yep. I have no desire to run in an index class, or in a pro class. The local street fights are what I want to run. Just show up in a street legal car, and run what ya brung. There are several 9-10 second cars at the fights. And theres rumor of a couple in the 8s this year.

I dont have the money to run 8s, but I dont see 10s as a big problem, just money and time. As long as I dont break into the 9s, the safety equipment isnt that bad either.

Yes, but the sad thing, if you want to call it that...is typically by the time a bidget restraint allows one to build this or that to somewhat keep up, technology has advanced enough that the bar is set even higher by the time your trying to play the game....used to be 10second door cars were fast, i should say 10 street cars were fast...but by today's standards, it's well into the 9's to be considered fast now, and as your finding out, 8's is the next bar.

Pro Stock cars were considered fast when they were making 10 second passes.

My 540 is considered small by today's standards.

The purpose of racing is to win. Without rules, you can't win. You show up with a 12 second car and I show up with my 9 second car for a heads up race and you don't win. You dump more money into your car (no rules remember) to get into the 9's and I add NOS to get into the 8's.

So now rules are added.

Bracket racing. Your budget allows a 12 second car, mine allows a 9 second car. Each has a fair chance of winning. You run as fast as you can afford. Money isn't an issue. A totally street stock car running 16 second passes can easily win with nothing more than an entry fee.

Heads up racing. Rules limit a minimum weight, maximum tire size, no power adders, maximum engine size. Everyone spends money and builds a car to the limits and they all run the same ET. The only deciding factor is who gets a better reaction time unless one driver has a slight mechanical improvement over the other that week. As mentioned above, the bar keeps being set lower and lower until it's not an entry level class any more and it takes big bucks to stay competitive.

Class racing. Each car runs heads up but must run the same indexed ET every time without breaking out. Almost like bracket racing but the car needs to be changed to speed up or slow down instead of just changing the number on the windshield. Most spectators don't understand throttle stop racing and after seeing the twentieth pair of Super Comp dragsters run 8.90's down the track, it gets boring real fast.

I don't really care if the car beside me runs faster or slower than I do. We each run at the speed we can afford and can easily lose to each other. I've beaten faster cars and have lost to much slower cars. If I knew that I could never win a race because I couldn't afford to find that extra 1/2 or full second, I wouldn't have the desire to compete. Remember, we race to win. Some people just have bigger budgets than others. Bragging that your 12 second street car can beat that 14 second street car in a heads up race isn't much to brag about because someone also has an 11 second street car that can beat you.

Ive always said, Speed is a direct function of money spent. And my budget is smaller than I wish it could be.

Bristol just got rid of their bracket racing competitions, so there is nothing else, except the street fights, or a Pro division. And the bracket races were boring, because alot of them had the electronics. Id love a footbrake bracket race. But they dont have one.

And I know about how fast the sport progresses. I remember when Max Carter (I think that was his name) won the first Fastest Street Car Shootout with a 9 second car. And when these cars were new, 11s were impressive.

Im not all about keeping up with the Jones', they have alot more money than I do. Id like to build the car to run at a minimum low 11s. And 10s would be real nice.

If I had a budget that was bigger, Id love to run a 9. My dream is to drive the car to the track under its own power, run a 9, and drive home. Just one. Doesnt matter if it ever repeats it. No refueling with race gas, or swapping tires, maybe a N2O jet change at home, set the timing, and turn the bottle on at the track prior to the run. Im not going to die if I cant. I have alot of other things that are way more important than that.

I just wondered about the suspension setup in case I can get this thing close to the 10s, and it just needs a little nudge. 11s dont seem like they will be that hard. Breaking parts seems to be the biggest concern. And I dont want anything happening that would put this thing in the wall.

to add to the bracket part, at my home track, the overall winner for the past 2 years in the "street class" has been a bone stock, down to the paper filter, late 90's altima.. runnin at best a 17.0

At many tracks the track champion usually is a street or sportsman class racer.

so why do all these guys build these expensive 9 second bracket cars when all they need to do is run a stock nissan altima? lol

cause its fun to go FAST.. you can only have so much fun in an altima..

Exactly. Ive went 17s, and 16s, and it sucks. Id rather lose going 9s, than win going 15s. Its not about a purse, or trophy here. I just want an 11 second car. And if I can get more, great. Its really that simple to me.

AMEN.. its all about the thrills.. i could care less if i win.. i just want my car to perform.. winning is just a bonus.. if i was going for the trophy, i would be running an auto with drag slicks.. but i'm not.. i got a stick and DOT slicks cause its fun to bang gears and beat back-halved cars in index, then drive home.. i will take a trophy if its given to me though.. like the runner up i got during the summer..


but that didnt really count cause there was only 3 of us in the 11.90 index.. but my first qualifying run was a 11.910 to get the bye to finals.. finals race, i lost with a 11.92 to a slower 11.93.. the guy was runnin a transbrake obviously.. and it was a protree so he got me by .04.. btw, i have the slowest reactions ever and the guy i raced did win that class for the past 3 years.. so i dont feel disappointed.. it was a thrill though..

If I wanted to run a slower ET, I'd still be racing my 454SS truck running 15.0's but I wanted to go faster. I've gone farther rounds, made it into the final round and gotten more perfect lights racing my truck for 2 years than I've done in my car for the last 9 but I wanted to go faster so I spent the money to go faster.

You can go as fast or slow as your budget allows. The truck was cheap racing. Drive to the track, make a pass then walk through the pits looking at all the other cars before having to make another pass. I didn't even open the hood. In the heat of the summer, as soon as I crossed the finish line, I'd crank up the AC and listen to music coming back up the return road. Had to have the AC off going through the staging lanes or it would drip water down on the starting line.

We all like to go faster but if you want to race competitively and don't have much of a budget to go faster, you can bracket race at any speed.

Thanks bud my grandfather raised me that way when i was just a kid helping him build rail buggys out of super bugs to mud run. He allway said that and it stuck but