five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Our track just notified us that NHRA Division V is changing the rules for the Summit ET Finals Sportsman and High School classes to no longer allow starting line RPM control devices in those classes (commonly known as "2-step"). In response, our track is following suit in all local classes that do not allow tranny brakes.

To say the least, this has created quite a stir among the local racers that don't run a tranny brake.

I haven't yet heard the justification for this change. It appears to be aimed at attracting more entry-level racers to these classes. But, it seems to be saying, "Race your daily driver, or buy a trailer."

Haven't heard if other NHRA divisions are making the same change for their ET Finals.

GreggymacZ28

Weird, here in NHRA division 3 it has been this way for awhile. I always read about you having a 2-step and I always wondered if I was able to run that here, however we are not. At least we were not at Milan Dragway. If we were allowed to at the Division finals that could explain why I got whooped so bad, lol.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It's always been a little puzzling to me why our track doesn't follow the Division Sportsman rules for our qualifying classes, and why the different NHRA divisions aren't required to follow the Pomona rules. A little consistency here would be nice.

Both the Div V rules for Sportsman and our track for the Sportsman-qualifying classes said "single rev limiter" - but, what they both meant (and I asked for clarification from both the local track tech and Div V tech) was no rev limiter banging down-track - a 2-step was fine as long as it couldn't be adjusted from the driver's seat.

The NHRA rules for ET Sportsman were VERY clear about a 2-step being allowed. And, as far as I know, the NHRA rules (which are followed at Pomona) are not changing.

There will probably be more forthcoming about this.

GreggymacZ28

Actually now reading back I think you may be right for even in this area. It does say single stage rpm limiter and then go on to say prohibited down track, but nothing at the starting line. I'm curious about this as I was looking to wire in a brake pressure switch this year.


EDIT: Nevermind, I found where I read it before. It is right on Milan's website, stating no 2-step in sportsman. It's unfortunate as they allow us to run 11.50 and slower when NHRA is 12.00 and slower. I will probably be just using the brake pressure switch for pro then.

AlkyIROC

Years ago when our track was NHRA, Sportsman class was footbrake only. You could use a high end rev limiter but not a 2 step. At the time, Sportsman was 12 seconds and slower. Pro was 10.0-12.99. It allowed 2-steps and transbrakes. Super pro was 11.99 and quicker and allowed throttle stops etc.

There was an ET overlap in all the classes so a fast car that didn't want to run in superpro could run as quick as 10.0 while a superpro car could run as slow as 11.99. It balanced the Pro/Superpro classes out so it wasn't heavy in just one class. Many times the Superpro class had less than 10 cars when the original ET breaks were used.

Having a 2 step and/or transbrake doesn't mean you're going to win a race. All you're using it for is to try to launch more constant.

Our local track is long gone so I race at a regional track under IHRA rules. Glad I don't need to deal with NHRA BS any more. It would cost me too much to race under NHRA rules.

It's possible your track is implementing their own ET break in hopes of balancing out the classes.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yes, they have their own ET breaks to try to balance it out. But, it's a two-edged sword.

Personally, I think there's too much mystique assigned to "foot brake". You still have to hold the car with a brake pedal, even if you use a 2-step. Saying a 2-step isn't allowed in classes that don't allow a tranny brake ties two pieces of equipment together that isn't necessary. Yes, you are likely to use a 2-step if you have a tranny brake, but that doesn't mean there is no advantage to using a tranny brake/2-step vs. using only a 2-step.

I still think there's room for a 2-step in "foot brake" classes. Simply require the 2-step to be activated/released by the brake pedal (already doing that in Stock Eliminator classes, and tranny brakes aren't allowed in Stock Eliminator).

I guess we'll see what develops. It's just a slug to the gut to hear about it this close to the start of the season - getting notice for the following season would have been more appropriate.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure I get it either way (excuse my ignorance, maybe someone can explain):
- the argument for this change seems to be to attract entry level racers... well maybe this has changed but it used to be almost the first thing anyone did was putting an ignition box on their car, and at that point you have a signal to run the 2 step on. So if you're entry level if you really feel that you need a 2 step to be competitive the cost of adding one would typically be less than maintenance would run on your DD.
- the argument against it is, well I'm not sure. I'm guessing that without something more than your right foot to hold your launch rpm you can't be competitive/consistent? Sounds to me like that's your problem, not an argument for why it should be allowed

I'm not sure I understand this... a lot of people do race a DD (or something close to it), and I'm not sure that the alternative is buying a trailer...

(I guess I don't entirely get the point of more than just trying to go faster all the time... I've almost always had more fun at T&T and grudge races then brackets or similar stuff)

GreggymacZ28

My personal opinion is that grudge racing is more about who's got the most money. Anyone with a million dollars can go out there and beat a guy who spends 1/100th of that. Bracket racing isn't so much about the car, its about the driver. It's really a race between yourself not so much the other guy. You run dead on and have a perfect light it doesn't matter what the other guy did, you will win. However, I do enjoy test and tune and making my car faster as well. I just do that before and after the points series.

Also, I don't think a 2-step helps anyone out much, except for the fact they can leave at the same rpm every time, as much as it is about habit. Bracket racing is all about habit, and doing the exact same thing every single time. The more consistent you can be with everything before take-off the more consistent you will be afterwards. I think that's where five7kid's issue comes with the rule change in his area, as now he has to change a habit that clearly has been working for him the past few years.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The 2-step is a competitive advantage, at least in bracket racing where reaction time and repeatability are vital. But, like you say, ignition upgrade is one of the first modifications made to a "hot rod" (I tongue-in-cheek referred to it on a local racing BB as "the 2nd most common modification after the Type R decal"...). That's to my point, I believe.

It's mid-way between pure foot brake and tranny brake launching. And there is a CLEAR advantage to having a tranny brake. The 2-step allows you to be competitive in a tranny brake class while being able to compete in a "foot brake" class.

As for controlling launch RPMs with the right foot - duh. But, doing that consistently while needing to watch for the tree to come down is no small matter. The 2-step allows you to stage and immediately get to launch RPMs (or wait the 6 seconds between you and the slower car you're paired up with without being up on the converter the whole time).

The alternative is to figure out how to launch at idle - and hope the car is consistent that way. The only cars I've seen doing that consistently successfully are supercharged LS Vettes (can you say, 10's of $k's?).

As for the trailer comment, it's becoming either a "foot brake" driver, or a trailered tranny brake racer. Yes, you can "street drive" a tranny brake car, but when you get to that level, you're doing other things that make it less streetable.

This movement appears to be driven nationally by foot braking "purists".

For the record, no relation to Larry Larson...

AlkyIROC

I won more races with my slow footbrake pickup truck in Sportsman than I ever did in all the classes I've raced the camaro in. Just a lot more fun launching at high rpm off the transbrake.

GreggymacZ28

I've actually been meaning to ask you. How did you hook up the brake pressure switch in your car? Also, how do you like it with the 2-step? I would like to head this route, but I would like to run sportsman and pro class, so I would like it to be able to only work in pro class. Also, do you have any problems with it during the burnout?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I didn't use a pressure switch. In the '57, I just tapped into the brake light switch for the trigger, and it worked fine. That didn't work in the Camaro, as the pedal return was slower, so I put a momentary button switch with cover in the brake pedal pad. When my foot starts to come off the brake pedal, the 2-step disengages. That worked great.

Neither configuration affected the burn-out, because I have a line lock in the front brakes only, energized with a button on the shifter handle, to hold the front brakes during the burnout. Roll through the burnout box, stop, hold the brakes, push the button, let off the brakes, shift to 2nd, and get the tires spinning. Let go of the button, roll out of the burnout, stop, shift to neutral.

The MSD LS 2-step requires the brake (trigger) to be off when the RPMs drop 1/3 below the 2-step setting in order to activate: if set at 3000 RPMs, the RPMs have to drop below 2000 with whatever trigger you're using is off - if you hit the brakes at the top end, the 2-step won't engage. This system allows you to hit the brakes at the top end without backing off the throttle - some racers prefer to back off that way so they're still under power when they get back on it. Personally, I usually just back off the throttle, hitting the brakes only if I'm way too far ahead.

1gary

The thing is with a two step,well really any rev limiter,in order for it to work it randomly has to drop cylinders and that is hard on bearings. Think of it as it suddenly shocks bearings with a load. To use that as consistent rpm launch control will catch up with you. The higher the rpm,the worst it gets.

As apposed to a t-brake with right foot rpm control where the pre-load is still continuous.

Beeman

That's interestng. Tracks can make their own rules but usually do follow the division rules so their racers are competitive at the div finals.
My opinion is footbrake should require a foot and a brake and do all it can to keep the electronics out of it. Just my opinion but seems to be a popular opinion evidenced by the attendance at races like the World footbrake Challenge, the Southern Footbrake Challenge, the Fall footbrake frenzy, the Moneytree, etc.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

In NHRA Stock Eliminator classes, 2-steps are allowed, but not tranny brakes. The 2-step has to be controlled by the brake in some fashion or another (my switch setup would be legal).

There are other ways to control launch RPMs without it, such as a stiffer spring that engages at a certain throttle position.

My question is, what makes "footbrake" so magical? Are we out there to preserve something sacred, or to have fun on a level playing field? The ET Sportsman class is intended for people who don't want or can't afford to build a dedicated race car. I don't see the 2-step as violating that - again, an aftermarket ignition is on the short list of most popular "hot rod" parts to go on a car.

As for repeated use of a 2-step damaging bearings - poppycock. Every power stroke is a "sudden shock" to the bearing. Randomly not firing on one cycle will not make that shock greater. The only effect is for the piston to go through one additional stroke with unburnt fuel. A random 2-step (which I believe all of the most popular now are) will keep a cylinder from getting washed down with raw fuel.

1gary

All due respect but I gotta disagree with you.Random misfires has a direct effect on the harmonics of a engine.It's kind of like a engine with bad balancing job done on it.

1gary

All drag racing involves the human element.Because if that,it is far better to be lucky than good.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, the season is under way, so I'll resurrect this...

My son decided to only run in a class that allows 2-steps/tranny brakes in our "normal" Friday ET series so he can run a 2-step. I was out of town for the first race back in April, he had his LS-swapped S10 Blazer out. 1st time trial, his posi grenaded at the hit (reports from eyewitnesses said his top staging bulb didn't even go off). He called to tell me about it, I told him to try to get a ride home and get the Camaro, which he did. He only got one time trial, lost first round.

The following weekend I was back home, but this was a different race series (which has never allowed tranny brakes). To add to the complication, it was the first time I had the '57 down the track - just picked it up from the dyno tune that day, in fact. I had also picked up a '96 Vette earlier in the year, and was going to run it in the slower ET class of that series. So, running two different cars for the first time in two classes for the first time all year down the track. Every one of my time trials in both cars were red, and I only got one pass in the Vette. In spite of all that, went to the quarter finals in both classes.

That Sunday was another class that does allow tranny brakes and 2-steps - "King Street", of all things (probably 2/3rds of the cars in the class are trailered to the track). Have to run a 12.75 or better ET for this class. Again, made it to the quarter finals. Also ran in another class that day for a specialty class they were running, made it to the 8th finals. So, 4 classes, 4 trophies first weekend.

I was out of town the last half of May, so missed some more races. Finally back at the track again last weekend in the same series I missed the first race in. I'm running in a class that doesn't allow a 2-step/tranny brake, and one that does - I go out 1st round in the class that doesn't allow it, make it to the quarter finals in the class that does. That first round loss was to a 10-sec 1st gen Camaro also running both classes, who does have a tranny brake & 2-step, but claims he was "foot braking" in the class that doesn't allow them. I watched his 2nd round run, I'm convinced he was just stepping on the brake pedal but still using his T-brake (to which the 2-step is tied). Basically, I'm convinced he's cheating. No matter, in the class that does allow them, my son (still running my Camaro) took him out in the 3rd round...

I will say that having a loose torque converter does make it easier to stall up. Still have to look down at the tach and risk having the tree coming down when you look back up.

If you have a FB account, you can watch a video (smart phone) that was posted of me from last Friday. This was the 4th round, where we're laddered together with delay box cars. Of the 8 cars remaining, 2 were box cars, and of course I got paired with one of them - I tree'd her, but the wind died down and we both broke out (in fact, all 8 cars in that round broke out). You can see how little time there can be between being staged and the tree coming down, especially when you're the slower car (which I often am).

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=658374014237466

I may go ahead and hook up the 2-step for King Street races, as I usually don't run other classes when that series is run.

Still think it's a stupid rule.

AlkyIROC

You don't need a facebook account to watch the video but vertical video sure is annoying.

The 57 sure looks good.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Interesting. I've linked FB video in other places, was told could only be viewed if you have a FB account. Glad that's not the case.

Yes, we've talked to him about that...

Thanks. The low-resolution video helps it look better...

It's been almost 4 years since it last ran. June 26th, 2010 was when it went down.