tpiroc

Alright folks, there are some good wiring resources floating around here to wire up a 4th gen gauge cluster, but none of them seemed to match an 85 set of plugs properly. The colors of the wires are right, but not the sequence. So, I double checked ALL the wires and sure enough the colors are right, so here's a new guide for an older style connector, namely an 85 TPI dash;


Here's a picture of the plugs;


I also tested all the wires for my ’93 Z28 gauges, and they were entire consistent with the following chart (I forget the original author, but YOU ARE THE MAN);


The best part is, between the ’85 and the ’93, the colors for EVERYTHING were exactly the same! It’s a total cinch.

NOW, this is where it gets interesting. For any of you that have either done this swap, or considered it, you may know that for an older vehicle, the speedometer is cable driven. The new speedo is by the wire, so a VSS (vehicle speed sensor) from a 91/92 car is needed to operate it, also a Dakota Digital box may be required. However, the computer must know how fast the vehicle is traveling, and it is told so by this magnificent optical module! Notice below the little yellow box that has three wires that go to next to the input for the speedo cable;


That is an optical sensor that detects the vehicle’s speed! It has a power in, ground, and a signal output (x2) just like indicated in the later model wiring instructions! Therefore, by leaving the cable connected to this unit, and wiring the optical unit accordingly, it should power the 4th gen speedo just fine! Here’s a pic of the unit removed from the dash;


Now, it may seem hokey to run a cable into the car, just to have the signal converted, but I thought it was pretty sweet, also, by leaving the module hidden behind the dash, there will always be a true to life odometer reading that goes with the vehicle. Anyway, so that’s it, that’s my magical old school to new school solution. Perhaps an electrical thread, but its basis is the interior swap so I plopped it here. All work done in my high tech lab


What do you guys think? Any of this going to be helpful?

tpiroc

Well, not that anyone appears to care, but just FYI on the little yellow box; the colors are misleading, black is ground, green is hot, and red is the speedometer signal.

RocVert

iTrader: (1)

Dude I care !!!

This info might be very helpful to me, I am about to swap a 93 bird dash into my 89 Iroc vert (I like a challenge)

So I thank you very much !:hail:

I am still not sure how much of this info will benifit me, but I am gathering all the info I can before I attemp this swap
thanks again

91zconvt

This may sound stupid, but if someone could tell me how to iddentify the connections on the 4th gen plaug, that's be great. You know, where's c1 as opposed to D8?

I've got everything pretty much working except most of the idiot lights, and well, I have like 5 brown wires comming out of the 3rd gen and only like 2 on the 4th gen connector.

GTA4ME

I'm going to make this a sticky....for now.

tpiroc

Right on! Thanks

91zconvt, I'll be working with it most of the day soldering the connections, I'll see what I find. When running through all the wires I got all the idiot lights to light up just fine.

CamaroRS385hp

so you soldered all the wires? would wire caps (i forget their exact name but you know what i'm talking about) work fine? it's what i use to hook up cd players. also, is there a lot of slack in the wires? i hate wiring things up where you barely have enough space to get your arm between it. for soldering....is it simple to do, and is the soldering tool inexpensive?

tpiroc

Soldering is really the only way to go, it's cheap, and easy once you've got the hang of it. Butt connectors are clunky and very likely to let go eventually. And behind the dash is NOT a place I want to have to root around in. Lastly, I hope you weren't referring to "wire nuts" used in home eletrical outlets and such. Just go to RadioShack and nab a soldering kit for like $7; it comes with a soldering iron, holder, and solder. Just FYI to anyone new to soldering, the simplest advice is to place the tip under the wires, then feed the solder onto the top so it melts into the wires

CamaroRS385hp

i was actually referring to wire nuts...i've installed probably 10 stereos using wire nuts or electric tape and i've never had a problem with anything coming loose..........but this being a bigger project i guess i'll invest $7 in a soldering kit

91zconvt

I don't know about you guys, and I'm probably going to get yelled at for this, but I have never ever had a problem with good old fashin twisting the wires and electrical tapping them.

I mean, I'm not just talking about taping each one together with one little loose piece of tape, I mean using a whole role just for the gauges. Twist one set of wires together, tape them really good and tight, then do another set, then tape the two sets together, then tape the third set and tape all three together, and so on. Makes for a clean install, when all the wires are taped to each other.

novadk13

an extra 10 mins now save an hour of hassle down the road. My first pickup truck had a radio hacked in like that, after awhile it just stopped working. The reason was because the electrical tape lost the sticky backing causing the wires to expose shorting out to the chassis. I usually use butt connectors or better soldering with some shrink tubing to make it almost 100% sealed. But that just me

91zconvt

If you saw what I was talking about, you'd know there's absolutley no way in hell that these wires are ever comming apart.
The whole bunddle of wires is wrapped for a good foot and a half.

tpiroc

Alright, I managed to solder up the whole cluster tonight and it appears to work good so far! It's a little tough since the car is immobile at the moment. I came across a couple other wires in the 4th gen cluster;

The "Service Engine Soon" light is a brown and white wire that connects to the brown wire #14 in the clear connector (I think).

The "Low Traction" light is a thin blue wire, be careful not to confuse it with the RH Turn Signal wire, also blue.

There are two gray wires, one is the "Security" light, the other illuminates the entire dash.

There is a strange light that's red with an arrow pointing down into a box that's controlled by a yellow and black wire.

There's a large orange wire from the 4th gen cluster that needs to be connected to one of the pink and black wires to power the instruments.

Lastly, there's a red wire that puzzles me; it needs to be connected to a ground though.

Here's a pic of it working (filthy, yeah yeah), but it's ALIVE!!! More progress tomorrow!

PonyKiller87

I have a question about that little yellow optical thing. I am swaping a T56 from a 95 trans am into my 87 Iroc, I am also going to use the gauge cluster. I was hoping this would alow my to connect everything right up with out using that dakota box being that the signal is going from the stock sensor to the stock gauge. My question is, how do I get the computer to know the speed from the gauge?

Thanks,
Kevin

tpiroc

If you're using a T56 you will not need a Dakota box, it will be a direct wire up. The T56 has a VSS sensor that you will use. The yellow optical thing is ONLY if you're using a cable driven speedo, and plan to leave it as such. Hopefully I'll have the T56 in and won't even have to tangle with it, it's a "just in case" measure if I don't have the T56 in by the time it's moving again.

PonyKiller87

So the computer from my 87 TPI setup will "understand" the signal coming from the T56 VSS without any other equipment? If so thats awesome, thats what I was hoping for.

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Ok, so I understand, because I have a 97 console on the way. I need the dakota digital box, which one and how does that hook up. I am going ot have a lot of questions for ya, but i promise to take pictures of every single step for everyone. Gettingg the dash in there doesnt bother me its the wiring that does.

So what box do I need? I will be running a 700R4 and a 92 Speed Density Computer. Does the box work for the HVAC as well as the cluster? Because I want both to work.

thanks man muy appreciado

James

tpiroc

@PonyKiller87; I believe so, I'd like to be more confident with my response, but you never know, there's always other factors involved. It would be more helpful if I absolutely knew the optical sensor's output matched the VSS signal, but at this point it's really speculation. Then again there's a lot of mention of the blasted"Dakota Box", so it may be required.

@Jstcrzyengh; If you're running a '92 ECM you will need the VSS from a 91/92 car. It mounts where the speedometer is inserted and has a wire output that you will use. However, if the optical sensor trick works, you can just use the signal output of that. I really wish the car were running so I could confirm the accuracy of this stinking little box! If the output signal of it is correct, you can just use that. But you may as well convert to a VSS sensor. Like I say, I don't know enough about the Dakota Box requirement to tell you whether or not you need it. It's called a "Speedometer Conversion box".

Hopefully someone with experience can step in and shed some light on the subject of "the box". I'll search around later tonight because I too will need to know this.

Lastly, I finished all the soldering on the instruments and wired the headlight switch and dimmer up; no problems, it all checks out! So far so good!

3rdGenSS

to answer your questions about that dakota box.. here is how it would be.. if you are useing an LS1 cluster.. (98 and up) and have the third gen tranny then you WILL need that box and your fuel gauge will not work unless you upgrade your gas tank and fuel pump to the ls1 version. if you are useing a 93-97 v-8 cluster then you WILL NOT need the box as long as you have a v-8 in your third gen. you can also use the 98 and newer v-6 gauges but you WILL need the box but your fuel gauge WILL work.. it is confusing i know basically if you have the digital odometer from a v-8 car you will need the box unless you are using the t56 tranny.. then you will not need the box.. any questions let me know and ill try to help... i have been debating doing the conversion to my car but have researched this alot and have alot of info in a notebook lol.... but tpi... if you have any info as to wiring the headlight switch and dimmer so it works correctly and any info on the hvac connections so they work correctly let me know so i can check that with mine before i decide weather to do this ... lol i have had the whole interior from a 98 sitting here for about 2 months now lol

tpiroc

It's your lucky day, camaro86vette, I'm making up an extensive wiring chart that encompases damn near everything (hvac, vacuum stuff, etc.). However it corresponds to a 93-97 instrument cluster I was really trying to get it done before I head to work, but I didn't quite finish it - I need to head to work but will post the info later tonight. Thanks for your input BTW.

3rdGenSS

most of the stuff should be the same as the 93-97... i know for sure that some are different....but i would like to see what you have... as it looks like the guy isnt going to buy my setup and i am going to put it in mine...

3rdGenSS

tpiroc,
any updates on anything as of yet? keep us informed... gonna get started putting mine in soon and just want to make sure i have everything in line to make it go smoothly

tpiroc

Sorry, I've been out of the house all weekend, but am now on spring break and hope to complete the dash and door panels. I finished putting a new starter on my Caddy today and intend on spending all afternoon working on it

deadbird

If it helps anyone, here is a 96 HVAC vacuum diagram. At the top I have matched the vac hose colors.

The only functions that I can see that will not work properly is the blend mode and when 'off', the bypass air will come from the defrost vents instead of the floor vents.

The 3rdgen has a one way vacuum actuator for the heat/defrost selector and defaults to the defroster vents when there is no vacuum present. The 4thgen has a two way actuator the defaults to the blend position.

The cure, if it can be done, would be to adapt a 2-way actuator in place of the 3rdgen 1-way. There are a few cars other than the 4thgen that use these as well.

tpiroc

:hail: deadbird!

FlamedROC

good..info..to bad im doin a firebird dash...dont think they really wire the same

Jason

deadbird

Thanks tpiroc... I needed the diagram for my corsica/4thgen hybrid hvac swap. I didn't know if you had one but, since none can be found online, I might as well 'share the wealth'
on the tech article, so far, as well. Sounds like you're making good progress.

Fbird.. I copied that diagram today directly from a '96 Camaro/Firebird Service manual at the dealership. The controls are the same, as far as function goes, though the actual controls are shaped differntly due to the dash configuration.

*edit* Before I forget. I am only referring to the vacuum selector being the same for the 2. As far as the hot/cold selector, they are different. The camaro uses a small rotarty type pull cable (hard to explain w/o a pic really). The 'bird uses a larger screw type selector. The 'bird selector (which I'm using) also seems to be used in the cavilers of similar years. If you modify the stock 3rdgen cable to fit the 4thgen temp. selector (which isn't difficult), the selector will work opposite from how it used to. It's possible to use the cable from a late 80's or so s-10 as they are about double the 3rdgen length. This allows you to mount the pull end of the cable on the opposite side of the temp. door lever correcting the problem.

As far as wiring, I don't see any reason for there to be a variance between the 'bird or camaro. The vacuum selector has 3 wires. One is ignition power in, next is power out to the switch (only on after the selector is switched from 'off'), and the last is power out to the a/c clutch and a/c request (->this turns on with MAX, Norm, Bi-level, Blend & Defrost). Finding the fan speeds power out is a simple as using a test light.
On the corsica selector (which is probably the same or similar to the 4thgen), low (speed #1) is just a dummy selection. When the Hvac is turned 'on' power goes to the switch and is also split right back out to the speed resistor. That leaves just 3 more wires to figure out what speed is what (takes about 1 minute with a test light). I'd give you the colors but, that wouldn't help much since they aren't 4thgen.
That's all the remembering I can do...

1992Z28

I have a '92 Z28. I used a '96 TA dash, a 2000 V6 Camaro cluster, and a 2000 Z28 HVAC. I have no Dakota digital box and I have the stock 350 TPI and 4L60 in the car. Everything works on the cluster, but the Tach needs to be calibrated for a V8. The speedometer is accurate, as is the fuel gauge.

Deadbird is correct on the HOT/COLD cable thing. I used the 2000 Z28 cable and mounted it where the 3rd gen cable would normally connect, but had to extend the 3rd gen "assembly thing" (hard to explain unless you've seen it) in order for it to work properly.

I would be happy to help anyone that needs it. I still have 3 minor issues to deal with on the cluster, but I just haven't gotten around to researching them because they're not that big of a deal. If anyone has an answer, let me know.
Here's my issues:

1. The oil pressure gauge works, but the low oil light is on and you can't just remove the bulb. I'm not sure how to get it to go off.

2. The ABS light was on until I hooked it to the fuel gauge. Now it is only on when the fuel gauge is on full. It then goes off once I use a little less than 1/8 of a tank and stays off until the gas tank is empty. So basically if you never fill it all the way up, you never see the light.

3. The trip resets every time I turn off the car. The wiring I had said to hook it to a constant power source, but when I did that, the odometer had a slight backlight to it and would drain the battery. So I decided to hook it up to an accessory instead. Now the backlight issue is gone, but the trip resets. The odometer works fine and saves the mileage, but not the trip.

I've done this on 2 cars, a 91 Z28 and my 92 Z28 and these problems exist on both. If anyone has any clue, let me know. If anyone has any other questions, I can answer everything but these three. Most of this swap is a breeze with the right diagrams.

GOOD LUCK!!

3rdGenSS

1992Z28.... i am about to do this all to my 91Z.... i think i have most all the wireing and all from hours of searching.. and looking thru manuals... just a couple of questions for ya...

1... what did you do to get your hvac working right.. i mean you said you modified the hot/cold switch .. meaning how did you do so?

2... did you use the auto or manual console? if auto how much modifying did you do?

3... also if you have the wireing diagrams you used do you mind shooting them to me in email or something to compare with what i have to make sure i got it all right before i start to tackle this.

thanks in advance for any help

PonyKiller87

I have one other question which is related yet slightly off topic. I bought a guage cluster from a 98 Camaro with the 155 speedo. I planned to put this into my 96 chevy truck because the stock speedo only goes to 100 and doesnt look nearly as cool. Both my truck and the camaro that the cluster came from had the 4L60E, so Im assuming that it should wire up fine, which could very well be wrong. Anyone know if this will work, or what it will take to make it happen?

Thanks,
Kevin

1992Z28

HVAC CABLE PICS
Look at the bottom of page 2. There are some pics posted by Chris Etemadi. This is what I did. It will work. I do know that the 96 TA cable was about and inch longer that the 2000 Camaro one. I was gonna swap them, but I stuck with the TA one since it was a bit longer.

I used the auto console. It's not that bad, but you will have to cut the shifter mounting area or do what I did.....sledgehammer it down slowly and evenly until it is low enough. I didn't have anything to cut it with and I did this when everyone on this board said it wasn't possible, so it worked good for me. I think there is an article on how to do it using the "cutting" method somewhere on the board. I'll see if I can find it. Also, ignore anyone or any post that tell you that the 3rd gen and 4th gen shifters are the same.....they aren't. The bolt patterns are a little different, but you have to drill new holes anyway, so it doesn't matter. The 4th gen shifter is like mounting a 3rd gen shifter on backwards. When our cars are in park, the shifter is straight up. When a 4th gen is in park, it is angled forward...toward the radio. When our cars are in 1st gear, it is angled back. The 4th gens are more straight. Main thing to remember is to USE THE 4TH GEN SHIFTER. I made the mistake of listening to rumors and tried to use the 3rd gen one at first and I couldn't get it to go into 1st. Then I decided I'd just try the 4th gen shifter and was amazed someone had said they compared these two shifters next to each other and they were EXACTLY the same......they aren't (unless you have one backward, then they appear to be the same).

I will get the wiring diagrams I used. They are at my friend's house. He has a 5.7 '91 Z28. We got them off this board and 3rdgen.org, but there were a couple of things that we didn't get from the diagrams. If you are doing a "LS1 style" swap, I can give you everything you need to make it work....except the 3 things I mentioned. It's really not that hard either. We did my swap first and started it around 5pm and we finished it around midnight the very same night. The hardest part is the vents behind the dash. You'll have to either merge the 3rd gen and 4th gen ones (that's what I did) or use some flexible AC ducting from Home Depot or something (what my friend did). When we did his car, he bought the complete dash w/wiring from a 98 V6. We knew exactly what to do and it only took us like 3-4 hours to get his in.

Hope this inspires you (and others) to try this. It's not all that complicated. I will get the diagrams we used and revisions for the 91-92 posted as soon as I get them. You may even find a way to improve on what we did. Until then........

deadbird

1992Z28.. the pictures you pointed out in your link, that's the temp selector I was trying to describe.
The one I picked up is alot different (no clue what year 4thgen since it was destroyed and about completely stripped of anything worthwhile but, I'm almost certain it was a 'bird.. iirc).
Here is what I was talking/have about in my above nonsense (keep in mind the actual 'cluster' part if from a corsica and the temp selector is adapted to it)...

3rdGenSS

92Z28.... i am doing a 91 Z28 5.7 to the 98 camaro v-6 cluster and dash.. if you have info on that it would be great.. let me know thanks

Bandit5

What are the differences for a 90-92 Camaro cluster wiring?

91zconvt

Tpiroc >

On your chart for the thirdgen harnesses, you put the fuel gauge as a pink wire, but on the 3rdgen to 4th gen chart, it's listed as a purple wire. I'm just wondering which it is, because my fuel gauge on my 4th gen gauges isn't working. I hooked it up from the purple (4th gen) into a really faded purple looking wire on the 3rd gen.
Any orther wires that go to the fuel gauge?

Also, any way to distiniguish between all the brown wires as to which one goes to he green/wht one for the speedo? There's like 4 brown wires...

tpiroc

Well, after making this pic I realized you have a 91, so the wire should be purple for you. On early models it is a pink wire, it's the only pink wire in the pink connector without a black stripe. What kind of plugs go into your instrument panel? There really only should be two brown wire and you use both. Any other brown wire should have a white stripe (ground wire). Hope that helps.

tpiroc

Ok, I hadn't gotten this as finished as I'd like, but thought I'd get an early revision out that would be clearer than the text based one. I'm working on completing the same for the lights and vacuum lines, but I've been working too much with the actual dash itself, I can do paperwork later

91zconvt

Thanks for the help. Unfortunetly, I have long since cut the connectors off, so checking it that way is not possible.

I took the dash apart a little today so I could get to the wires (It's already in the car and done except for these two issues) You're right, I have two brown wires. One, when first spliced to the green and white wire on the 4th gen gauges, makes the speedo bounce up, then fall back down, and thje other when first conencted to the green and white wire does nothing. Unfortunetly, when driving, neither make the speedo move. Just wondering, when you first start your car, what does the speedo do?

As for the fuel gauge, I have one badly faded purple wire comming from my car, I connected that to the purple wire on the 4th gen gauges, and it seemed to work, until I put gas in it, the gauge just topped off, and stays there, occassionally dancing around, then resting back way past full.

Any suggestions?
I have a '91 car, and I'm using 97 Z28 gauges.

3rdGenSS

i myself have a 91 Z... and the wireing that i have gotten thru searching and manuals is different then the one posted here.. but that is expected... mine shows a grey or tan wire for the speedo... and the purple for the fuel... from my searches it seems as though the wireing i have is correct but as i have not started mine yet i can not be sure...

tpiroc

A: That really sucks I wish I knew more about the whole speedo thing.

B: I dunno, the car hasn't been running for 3 months Right now it does nothing since I fried my yellow box thing which I may play with tomorrow.

MAN OH MAN FOLKS, I spent some serious time working on this thing. I cut the upper-most 3rd gen mounting tabs off (w/Dremel) and REALLY got this baby to sit in there nice. I also did some trimming on the backside of the dash to get it to sit just right into place. I'm REAL excited and have the batteries charging to take some good pics tomorrow. One problem so far is that my headlight switch stopped working, it turns the parking lights on but that's it. I'll chase that one later. Anyone thinking about doing this should

tpiroc

Alright folks, as mentioned above I spend a lot of time working with this thing to plop it in just right. Before showing the results I’ll show what I modified to get what I believe to be a good fit.

Pictured below shows where the 3rd gen bracket was (outlined in red). A Dremel was used to remove the bracket. I should also note that the vertical portion of the bracket needed to be bent towards the center of the car to allow the dash to clear it and not hang on it. That was a big problem for a while and caused the passenger side to sit way too high;


Here’s a close up of the cut bracket. Outlined in red was where the bracket used to be;


This pic shows a little rougher cut, but the same region of material was removed as shown in red. Shown in GREEN is the bolt that no one seems to tangle with. Well, I removed some material from the backside of the dash and got it to rest there NATURALLY without forcing it. All four bolt holes rest naturally along the firewall lip, and also, the U-Shaped piece that bolts in with the driveline WAS used and not removed.


A little harder to see what’s going on here, but two things are. On the bottom, a U shaped notch was made to clear the 3rd gen bracket, and it slid into place. Above, the dotted outline shows where material was framing the 4th gen fuse panel. The solid lines show where more material was removed to allow the dash to sit further towards the firewall.


Alright, it’s still a big mess as I’ve not tucked any wires away yet, and still need to acquire the top pad, glovebox door, outer radio bezel, and driver’s side lower kick panel, BUT the hard part is done. I also made a custom gauge panel that took a couple days, however don’t have the other gauge, so I put an old POS gauge in (shown with red X) to temporarily fill the hole;


Sorry the pic is so dark; hopefully you get the idea;


Here’s all the better of a shot I managed to get of the gauge panel I made;


What do you guys think?

As far as the instruments go I will either get silver faced gauges or a 94-96 set (no yellow numbers), any recommendations?

3rdGenSS

here is what i have for wireing so far.. if anything looks incorrect please let me know thanks

3rdGenSS

pic isnt loading.. hmmm

1992Z28

My friend has been at school and work and I haven't been able to get all the info. I will post it as soon as I get a copy.

91zconvt

wow Tpiroc, looks like we bolted our dashes up he same way.

Let me guess, yours sits flush on the passenger side, but on the driver side, there's about a 1 inch gap too, right? Thought so

Let me tell you something though, that gap is noticable with the third gen door panels, but as soon as you get 4th gen door panels, it makes a world of difference. You wouldn't even know it's there. At least, that's how it is for the 97-02 dash anyway. Should be the same for the earlier models.

On another note, I really wish you would of done your swap a litle earlier, say about a month ago. his post would of really come in ahdny when I was putting the dash in

tpiroc

A: Hey! How did you know!

B: Hopefully it will help the next guy at least

3rdGenSS

yea.. the info you are giving out is definatly helping me out... i have pretty much everything i need to do this.. just have to get it done now... once i get my speedo working correct then i will start ... looks like maybe easter weekend or something keep the info comming

tpiroc

Just an update for everyone, progress has been slow as I've not had too much time to work on it. I've been chasing an electrical problem of some sort; the headlights will NOT come on... stinkin' gremlins. Anyway, I did acquire the lower column trim piece and it makes a DRASTIC improvement as far as tucking wires away and covering the side. However the tab with the lower mounting bolt on the driver's side (see pic above; the piece that had to have the notch/slot cut for) must be removed, so trimming that notch in the dash was pointless, however it is covered by the trim piece. I'd have pics up but have been struggling with my camera I'm anxious to get the remaining trim pieces but rather put the dough towards the new engine build up - at least I can drive it with no top dash pad or glove box!

dieseldennis

I have a 87 Z28.
Will I need a dakota box If I put a 97 trans am dash in?
Do I have a speedo cable in my car or no?
How long should the dash conversion take?

I am still a little confused with the hvac diagrams but we'll see.

Dennis

3rdGenSS

your 87 camaro does have a cable speedo... therefor you will need the electric vss which shouldnt be a problem other then putting the speedo gears in which just takes some time. as for the dakota box.. if you are using the 97 gauges from a v-8 car you should not need the box..
how long it takes... cant give you a definate on that as i am just getting ready to put mine in and dont know exactly myself. hope some of this helps ya though