Kingtal0n

I was speaking with doug flynn @ holley and mentioned I was designing a program that will work with the commander 950 to auto tune itself, so you dont even need somone to drive while you tune, you just drive and it tunes itself.

im going to add all sorts of data logs that the commander is missing like O2 voltage VS rate of tps and a log of the commander's built in Dtps which moves so fast you cant tell what cell it was using the AE enrichment from..


But the main thing is the auto tuner, I will be testing it when i put my motor back together, but to complete it I will need my car running and the O2 mod moving since this is what we are tuning with, moving the O2 mod to a desired place...

from there Ill make it so you can switch to open loop and run by A/F ratio, instead of having the commander do fuel adjustments my program will make them directly to the fuel map, and according to your desired A/F, so if you want a little lean on the highway or a little richer during idle you can do so completelly in open loop, with my program watching the O2 sensor voltage and making adjustments to the fuel map based on what you set it for.

BUT i have no running motor so i dont even know what Wm_msg hits the fuel map text boxs when the pink box moves over it, if somone with the commander 950 would take a screen shot of it while using SPy++ that would be great i could have the program done the same day.

I will be ready to release a beta in a little bit for people to test on their setups, if interested. It is written in VB6, which windows 95 would probably have a problem with some of the API calls and subclassing dll's, i need to test it out on win95-98 however. Right now im going to set the system requirments at windowsXP...

Kingtal0n

also im willing to give out the source code to anyone who thinks they can help or add features or whatever. you would need to understand VB6 and API quite well though, and understand how subclassing works.

IROCNParts

hey id love to try this out! I just got mine dyno tuned, but lets see how your program varys to mine!
get back to me! thanks

92 zzz28

Hey King,

If you wanna come up to Boca and plug your 950 into my car and use it as test car, I don't think I would mind!!! That would speed up my tuning EPROM process a bit...

Kingtal0n

Well i would except i cant see how thats would help you one bit

the commander is a standalone ecu, if i tuned your car with it, the program would only work on your car while the commander was hooked to it...

once i removed it you would no longer be in tune, but back to your previous Eprom tune. there is no way to transfer that over...

yet.

now you just gave me an idea.

And just in case you were joking about it thinking that your "eprom" tune would be great suddenly because there wereny any more eproms, i would also love to do that except you would have to pin-out and repin the entire harness twice to do such a thing. but it would work...

I would love to see your car anyways, i live close to boca, or did.

NOw i live in miami, near homestead, but i make trips to coral springs like 2 or 3 times a week (When i have an engine in the car) so boca is only a few miles away from there. why dont you PM me or email me, maybe we can work somthing out.

92 zzz28

Yeah, I was kidding. But I have thought about going with an aftermarket ecm for a long time. The only thing that holds me back is price. Since my car needs so much other work, rearend, body, paint, I just can't spend the money on the aftermarket ECM. So tuning PROMs will have to do for now.

I actually thought there were adaptors to allow a quick and simple hook up for the aftermarket computers...

IROCNParts

I have a 950 in mine!

Kingtal0n

now that you mention it i could probably make a simple adaptor that auto changes the pinouts for the factory wiring.. that wouldnt be hard at all in fact. i would just need more of those plug ins that work with the commander 950, and i would need to pull out the plugs inside the GM ecm as well. hrm. who wants to donate a GM ECM, say, a 730 isnt that a MAP ECM?

and what do you mean price? you can pick up the ECU $538.99 now and just re-pin the factory harness (like above) to work with it. very simple...

how much $ did you spend / are you spending on tuning your own chips? didnt you need software / memcal / cable etc... to get started? how much less than $550 was it?

92 zzz28

What, where are they so inexpensive? I was under the impression that aftermarket computers were in the neighborhood of $1500+. I have looked at Accell and FAST and they were all very expensive and the people at the companies also told me I would have to modify the wiring harness to make it work. I don't want to do that. If all they ment was to repin the connector, which I don't know how to do, I think I could swing that. Tell me where to look or which companies to contact for that price. I have a few other questions about the 950 but I will bother you in the PM about that if you don't mind...

Lets see, I use tunercat $60-80 IIRC, PP2 which was $150, I bought a Memcal adaptor from TTS, $80, and some EEPROMs, 3@$5 /each. Little over $300. I also have Datamaster, but that is not necessary for tuning, but I wanted it. I have been burning PROMs for over a year. Its kinda fun and very simple. I also burn some for my boss's friend who has a 68 Chevy P/U we put a 350 TPI in a few years ago.

Kingtal0n

HLY-534-120 ECU for Commander 950 $538.99

Summitracing.com

you get that, repin your harness (first time for me, took 5 minutes to learn, 30 minutes total to complete and re-tape what i screwed up.)

and you get the software, which even if you cant get holley's mine will be freeware so you can use it...

and your done! your setup is converted to S/D realtime tuning. that should be a freaking sticky.

92 zzz28

Thanks for the info.

I am curious if you know what the Holley PN 950-101 kit is. From Summit is sells for about $830. The holley website just shows it as a kit for TPI cars. Let me know...

Kingtal0n

thats what i wound up buying for mine. its the ECU, the Software, and a complete new wiring harness for the TPI with some sensors.


if you feel like removing your entire harness, and installing this new one (which BTW if run like the old one will need about 1 foot of length added and your fan switch and crap will have to be re-wired too) then thats a perfectly good kit....

but if you already have a perfectly good working harness, with all your sensors working, and everything is fine and dandy you just want to change computers...

all you need is the ECU.

92 zzz28

All right good call.

Just the computer and repin the connector.

Thanks

IROCZZ3

Kingtalon-
I'm very intersted to see how your idea works out. I just recently installed a C950 and while it's easy to tune, your idea would make it even easier. So if I'm reading you right, you just input a target O2 mod, and the C950 will automatically adjust to it?

I don't really know jack about computers otherwise I'd gladly help take screenshots of whatever you said you needed earlier.

BTW, I wish I knew about repinning the harness or else I wouldn't have bought the whole kit. But I got mine at Scoggin-Dickey for $826 shipped (950 ecu AND tpi harness!) That's the cheapest place I've seen it.

Kingtal0n

yes here is a screen shot... all the red text is editable. you enter the setting you want, save them, and run the commander 950. using the setting you enter, it alters the fuel map.

Kingtal0n

and IROCZZ3 if you are interested in helping me out i could walk you through how to use SPY++ to give me the info i need to finish my program.

i would have to upload you spy++ though, its about 200K i think.
let me know if you can help.

614Streets

Wow. Hey Im about a week from startup . I have a 950, and even have another in the house. I got the full 670 tbi kit off ebay for $350 with power snipe, brand new it costs $1299 from jegs, I got a back up 950 off ebay as well for $250! Look on ebay they come up, doesnt hurt to ask seller what he wants to sell now.



Anyways thsat program looks interesting. Im gonna let some folks I know who run it know about it , maybe we can help you finish it.

Zac's92

Kingtalon,

Could you elaborate on re-pinning the harness? What specific terminals need to be changed? some instructions on this would be great or maybe a tech article?

Thanks
Zac

Kingtal0n

ack. all of them need to be changed... you basically need to find a wiring diagram of your car's harness, then using the diagram the Commander 950 comes with, simply pull out the pins 1 at a time from the factory harness, and using the factory diagram, insert them into the commander 950's harness. its not HARD it just gets time consuming... especially when half way through you realize that your wiring diagram isnt completelly accurate.

grobb284

iTrader: (1)

You are correct in suggesting repinning an existing harness. I purchased the 950-101, and it was short in several ways on length. To Holley's credit, they have supplied extra terminals and such to help with the installation. However, that being said, for the time to work on making the harness right, it would have been a similar or less amount of time to repin, and had all the lengths right for sensor hookup.

If you are competent with electrical items, the repin is probably the way to go.

I'm interested in your self-tune program, let me know how it progresses.

CrazyHawaiian

Best bang for the buck aftermarket solution I've seen. Good job Kingtal0n! And good job letting everyone know they can save $$ by re-using the existing harness. Definately a plus. I posted so I could answer your question about DIY costs. A setup can be had for around $320 not including the price of a PC (laptop or desktop). The $320 price would include the PROMinator, Tunercat R_T, the definition file, the ALDL cable (can save $ by making it yourself, but I didnt include that), and a USB adapter. This would give you the capability of real time tuning (while someone else drives) and diagnostics, as well as the ability to flash the PROMinator in the ECM (no more chips). Add the cost of a 749 ECM for around $100 (or convert your 730 for even cheaper), and the cheapest wideband tuning unit out there (Innovative motorsports) at $350, and total cost of 2 bar map and WB02 tuning capabilities with the DIY setup runs you between $700 - $770. I just wanted to let you know how much it would be so you could compare that to the total cost of your Commander 950 w/ WB02 tuning setup. I've always thought DIY was the cheapest route, but with what you've said you might have found a cheaper solution.

:yourock:

Side note: grobb284, looks like a sweet build you've got going there. Wish my chassis looked that nice.

Kingtal0n

And I will be getting my new laptop this weekend.. with a serial port so i can put this all into action and finnaly get the ball rolling.

in case anyones wondering.. my crank is still at the machine shop they still need to turn it .020/.020 before i can reassemle the motor and get IT running...

So hopefully in a week i will be up and running, and ready to do some testing.

the race upgrade to the commander (950-125) which allows Closed Loop during WOT and Wide Band O2 operation is about $300~ if i remember somone mentioning it. not sure exactly how much though...

But you also need an "amplifier" for the sensor, and the sensor itself. So it can get pricey when you move to the WBo2 portion of aftermarket EFI. But can you imagine being able to tell the computer "ok on this portion of the fuel map i want 12:1 and on this portion i want 15:1 and over here 13.5:1 and here 11.7:1.."

and then having the computer actually, realistically, functionally controlling and holding those A/F ratios to +/- .5% accuracy?

Well personally i think its just nuts. sign me up!

Badas.sbird

Please let me know what you come up with. I have a customer that is going with a 950.

Kingtal0n

Just dropped the $1400 on a new laptop with a serial port.

now all i need is my engine up and running.. i will probably get the block and heads and crank back tuesday and when i have a chance in between work ill assemble it and go from there...

until then there isnt much else to do...

Skip Fix

Please keep us posted. I'm retrofitting a second Gen Trans Am with a TBI and the Commander 950.I'd be interested in the computer program.

SMasterson

Are you saying that the 165 or the 730 GM connectors will plug into the Holley 950? Just move the pins around to the correct 950 locations?

If so, I'll remove my 165/730 adapter and have my 950 running this afternoon! Also, probably will check into making an adapter from 165 to the 950. (Acutally, my 950 is for my Malibu project which isn't even close to ready, but I've been tuning my MAF/SD setup for two years and this would give me chance to play with the 950 without installing the whole harness.

Waiting to hear... or maybe I'll go unplug it and check myself...

Anyway, I'm interested in your tuner program too!

Thanks

Kingtal0n

<b>Are you saying that the 165 or the 730 GM connectors will plug into the Holley 950? Just move the pins around to the correct 950 locations? </b>


well if you think about it all the sensors are the same, so you just re-line them up for use with the commander 950 and bing. just remember there are some things the commander doesnt have a use for, so there will be some pins left which you need to mark...

Verviticas

Hey Kingtal0ni think its really great that your doing this. I was looking into the commander 950 but had doubts about my limited abilities in tuning car engines (ive never done it, altho im quite adept with computers). Just one question, when do you think you'll be ready to test it?

Kingtal0n

The minute i get my engine running I will be placing the tune into the hands of my software. from there, i will probably package it up and try to make it more "slow computer friendly" by making sure all my variables and leftover garbage is cleaned up when you close the program, and that the source is somwhat easier to execute... I have a habbit of making these long intricate loops for which none is needed.. not sure why...

and right now I've inhaled enough brakecleen to see some very weird $#1T floating around so excuse me while i go outside for a bit.

PaveTim

Hey kingtalon just wondering if you've made any progress on the autotuning program. A question I have is if you upgrade to the race software on the commander it allows you to set in a target A/F ration, if you set this in will your program adjust to this setting? Keep us posted on your progress this sounds like a really good setup your doing. Thanks.

Kingtal0n

I have made some progress, but still have not tested it out.

I rebuilt my motor and broke it in, got it running, and now im trying to fix various bugs all over the place.

for instance the O2 sensor wont stay lit-off anymore, either its bad or its not wired properly. also my ecu is seeing incorrect batt. voltage, I have no idea why.

and im leaking oil because my heads were shaved and now the valve covers dont seat right.

*sigh when all of that gets fixed ill try my program, then add some more. soon soon...

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

What about the stuff that the memcal controls? Does the 950 do these functions as well? Will the 950 run the factory 1991-1992 gauge cluster?

Kingtal0n

Hmm the Commander replaces the factory ECU and if im not mistaken the ECU is what has the memcal... So I must assume you know that already and are asking does the commander have a "limp home mode"? The answer is, not exactly. Put it this way, If your car goes into limp home mode, Its basically ignoring certain sensors and holding the timing etc.. right? So you limp home and fix the problem right? Assuming nothing physical is wrong that will stop the motor anyways, like injectors not firing or coil gone bad or fried ECU... follow?

Ok with the commander its a bit different. if something sends un-recognizable data or some sensor fails, it will still run your engine just without feedback from that sensor. So say your TPS dies, not sure if this would invoke a limp home or not, but the commander would simply ignore it and you would notice the minute you hook up your laptop that TPS is 0 or whatever.

So in reality I prefer the commanders function, Simply because say the "limp home" was invoked because of a chip problem, the commander has no chips. if there is a problem you can fix it right then, right there, real time with the engine running in just a few minutes. For instance today I had my O2 sensor go bad. It wouldnt stay lit off, so within a few seconds i disabled closed loop (ignored the O2 sensor) and got the car home. Fixed the problem (bad ground to heated O2 sensor) and flipped open loop back on.

As for the guages, I assume the 91-92 guages get some input from the ECU? My car is an 89RS, all the factory guages work except oil press (used mechanical one). My speedo is cable driven though, where a 91 probably has the VSS, And the commander does have a place for VSS although I have nottried messing with it yet, no reason to at this point. The tach should work since its connected to the coil, right? the temp should work because it goes to the head, voltage is obvious, So the only guage i can think of would be the speedo and for that I have no idea, but it should I think it just reads the sender from the Tranny and from there it goes to the ECU so I want to say yes all the guages should work fine since they dont really have anything to do with the commmander 950 at all.

Im having a strange water dissapearing problem now, and there appears to be milk in my valve covers. Today it almost overheated and the radiator was half empty. I filled it back up, and it stays cool now, and I dont see any water leaking anywhere. I am worried it may be leaking into the motor somewhere because of the milk i am finding my covers. Im going to investigate this some more...

And in another note Ive got the auto tuner doing its thing, but im working out a small bug where it wants to change the fuel map twice because a variable gets re-declared when the pink box moves around.
And more bad news, when using the auto tuner you will need to avoid moving around the commander 950's window, and you will also need to have it inside the screen.

I finnaly found the message that trigger the pink box, its WM_PAINT and since this message also occurs when you move the window or hide it, then whenever you do that my program thinks the pink box is moving around. Im trying to work around it, trying to find a way to use an API call like getpixel() to find the pink box, or something creative, but right now im going to stick to cross process subclassing for the beta. I will include instructions when its ready.

85TransAm406

iTrader: (1)

Easiest place to look for the disappearing water is by taking of the intake, one of the water crossovers may be leaking into the lifter valley. The next worst would be an intarnally leaking head gasket. The worst case senario is a cracked water jacket, requiring a new block.

Kingtal0n

Whats funny is I dont get white smoke out the tail pipe, and I dont see any water in my oil when i drain it, even when hot. I just get some milk, not much, not nearly as much water as I have lost from my radiator, in my valve covers.. and now that ive re-hooked up the PCV it seems to have stopped, making me think it was condensation all along.. which is good.

Verviticas

hopefully, a having to buy a new block would be a lot of hassel. Good luck.

bes217

So, hows that auto tuner coming along. I wouldn't mind trying it when I finally get around to hooking up my 950 system.

Kingtal0n

Im looking to get it working tonight actually. but i just found a huge vacuum leak in my plenum thats going to slow me down a bit more. SOON everyone very soon.

I will probably Email it or upload it to a site. anyone interested in hosting it for me? my Site provider wont let it be downloaded nearly enough.

Kingtal0n

Woo Ive made a little progress tonight. Ive found a way for it to "see" which box is pink, as opposed to watching for the WM_PAINT to hit the box that is.

only problem is with the handle, and how resolution can affect the point API function. Anyone experienced with API?
It appears when i pull the .LEFT and .TOP for the window handle (text box) im working with it throws the pointAPI way off. But when i use it for the actual FUEL MAP window it works fine.. ?

Kingtal0n

HA! figured it out. I was using the wrong function call, i should have been using GETWINDOWRECT() instead.

Now i just get the windowrect as long, then getpixel it to see if its pink, and walaa i can see where the commander is getting its fuel map value from, and using whats in the O2 mod box I can see if it needs to come up or down, and walaa an auto tuner is 99% completed.

Im going to release the first version with SUBCLASSING enabled, to see how it reacts on machines. I beleive although its less stable, its faster code and less resource intensive than just a plane-jane milisecond timer.

We will see. This is what beta tests are all about. So Who wants to hose this thing? it should be under 5MB completed. most likelly way less...

farrenator

Sorry I can't host it, but if this thing works the way it should Holley should give you a free unit! Nice work, let us know when you find someone who can host it.

Kingtal0n

Well I tried it out today. It does exactly like it was supposed to do... except maybe too well.

The Fuel map is not linear, cant be, and the value up down left and right and even diag affect the fuel injected to the motor...

SO...

My program was only designed to change the value of the "pink box" not the other 8 boxs around it, and this creates a small problem, although not huge, its not something im ready to pack up and ship out.

Im going to create another small 16X16 matrix that pulls the values around the pink box, and checks to make sure they are not invalidly weird, such as a box to the left being higher than a box to the right in other words. Ill call it cell smoothing, if you dont mind

So give me another while to write a whole new function for this unexpected turn of events. Ill probably make it RPM and LOAD sensitive too, so that higher loads or RPMS denote bigger changes around the current value...

But so far so good. I got it to tune my idle quite well, thank you very much

Skip Fix

Sounds good so far. mayne something I can use on my next project, but you guys are lossing me on the computer lingo stuff. I'm stil an old carb jets, and power valve guy trying to upgrade!

Kingtal0n

Its READY for BETA testers! Either post your Email in this Topic, or Mail your Email address to ME And I will send you a copy of the beta Via- Email.

Its about 2.1 MB with VB Runtime.

614Streets

Rimshott@msn.com
Talon, does this work with Race software? I sent my my spare ecu in for the race upgrade. Cant wait to see the Beta in the mail.
Thanks.

Kingtal0n

ha! no idea!. Does the race software look the same? I wonder if the window handles or layouts change? hmm. If you send me a copy of it (I know the ECU needs the upgrade) I can see if i could make it compatible.

Ill send the beta to you anyways, but um... if it does anything funky im not responsible!!!

614Streets

Does it run on Windows 98? I could not get it to install.

Kingtal0n

Have not tried it on windows 98, but it should install though.

What happens? does it say "please restart" then you restart and try it again?

i Hope you unzipped ALL the files to a single folder THEN ran the install program?

your VB runtime is probably out of date on windows98, so you will probably have to run setup, restart, then run setup again. Im thinking of starting a new thread about this, where people can get new versions and ask questions like that.

614Streets

Yup unzipped them to one folder and ran the installer. It said some things needed update and to click and restart. I did that and after restart it is not installed. I am having problems running MSN8 now(internal errors) and the open in new window command in explorer no longer works. Seems like some of the registry values is misassociated , I dont know jack about computers so Im limping online now with msn 6. I would warn people with MSN8 or windows 98 to wait before downloading.

Kingtal0n

Wait you ran install then restarted but did you ever actually install it? when it asks you to restart its because its updating your VB runtime... it never actually installs My program until you finish the whole setup. run it again.