bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Edit- I think this thread's large enough that it needs a directory to simplify things. Most of what's inbetween is just conversation and makes for endless mind numbing reading. Be sure to read posts 1-4.

Page 1
Post #
34- Tuning notes

Page 2
Post #
55- List of cars equipped with '165 ecm
80- Link to G1 eeprom adapter

Page 3
Post #
110- Chip programming offset notes
141- T-bird MAF repin and 6E info

Page 4
Post #
158- Link to DIS ignition swap
173- Notes on tuning MAF tables
174- NTRPMX BINs & files for extended spark table, DIS ignition and T-bird MAF
197- Connecting with TunerPro
199- Power Adder 6E v1.02

Page 5
Post #
213- ECM kits

Page 7
Post #
347- More notes on tuning MAF tables

Page 9
Post #
403- Link to BIN Hacking Via TunerPro



____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Alright, here it is. The '870/'302 to '165 ecm swap for v6's.

Before I start I have to lay down the legal stuff. I cannot be held responsible for damage to you or your vehicle due to use, misuse or misinterpritation of the information contained in this guide. Changing pcm's and/or reprogramming may be considered emissions tampering and grounds for emissions testing failure. This is intended as educational and should not be misconstrued as a definitive swap. Now that that's out of the way...

This swap is compatible with any '85-'89 2.8 v6 equipped f-body since they all share a common wiring harness pinout. This is more or less a straight swap, you don't need to switch to the TPI v8 maf since the $32B mask is compatible with both analog and digital mafs. You don't need to add a knock sensor if you don't want to but I do reccomend one be installed because of the enleanment features and a revised spark map. You'll also get a code if you try to run without a knock board installed.

First, you'll need a few things-

1227165 ecm (found in tpi v8 f-bodies, 4-banger s-10's and blazers)

memcal out of any 1227730 / 1227727 ecm equipped vehicle w/ a 2.8 or 3.1

harness repin tool (paperclip with one end filed at an angle)

soldering iron with a fine tip (or an exacto knife)

copy of tunerpro or another suitable tuning program

copy of one of my base bins

copy of my "32B (v6) XDF" definition file (modified for the v6 maf)

chip burner (I use a willems burner, just $40 on ebay)

and an eeprom chip

Depending on which bin you use and how involved you want to get you may want to add a knock sensor as well. One from a '90-'92 3.1 f-body is best, but just about any off a 2.8 or 3.1 v6 will work.

Removing the old ecm


'165 to be swapped in

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Disconnect the original ecm and begin repinning using this chart. To remove a wire remove the retaining clip from the back of the plug, insert the repin tool into the 'upper' hole on the front of the plug at a slight angle and pull the wire out from the back. Takes a couple tries to get the feel of it, but it's pretty simple.

'870/’302 --------------> '165
-------------------------------------------
Repin-

A11 ----------------------> C12
B4 ------------------------> D4
C8 ------------------------> C7 (auto trans only)
C9 ------------------------> D11
D2 ------------------------> C1
D8 ------------------------> C15
D13 ----------------------> D2
D15 ----------------------> D16
D16 ----------------------> D15
ALDL E -------------------> ALDL M
ALDL M ----------------- -> ALDL E

-------------------------------------------
Disconnect-

A2 ------------------------> disconnect
B9 ------------------------> disconnect
C12 ----------------------> disconnect
C15 ----------------------> disconnect
D14 ----------------------> disconnect

Cold start injector -------> disconnect

-------------------------------------------
New-

D3 -----------------------> A12 (run new from D3 splice with A12)
D10 ----------------------> A12 (run new from D10 splice with A12)

Knock sensor ------------> B11 (with memcal mounted ESC board)



Optional-
-------------------------------------------

WBo2-

WBo2 signal -------------> D8

-------------------------------------------
Analog T-Bird MAF-

B6 ------------------------> C11

MAF harness power -----> MAF pin A- Power
MAF harness ground ----> MAF pin B- Ground
MAF harness ground ----> MAF pin C- MAF return
MAF harness signal -----> MAF pin D- MAF signal

-------------------------------------------
PA6E MAP-

A4 ------------------------> B12
C15 -----------------------> C14 (splice with C14)

EGR pin D ----------------> MAP pin A- Ground
EGR pin C ----------------> MAP pin C- 5v reference
EGR pin B ----------------> MAP pin B- Signal

-------------------------------------------
Analog TPI MAF-

MAF analog ground ------> A11
MAF burnoff relay pin B -> D12

(see diagram on post #12 for relay wiring)



High-tech repin tool


Removing a pin

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Download the attached bin file and program your chip. This is a mild tune for $32B without knock sensor and using the standard MAF, DFCO is enabled but decel enlean is not and the included datalog definition includes wideband o2 support on pin D8. Before you can install a new chip you'll need to remove the old eprom chip and the knock board from the '730/'727 memcal. You can either -carefully- punch them out a pin at a time using an exacto knife, desolder them or use a G1 adapter from moates. Program your chip and plug it into the memcal. Then remove the old memcal from the '165 and replace it with the new memcal.

To hook up a knock sensor first plug the knock board back into the memcal. Then remove the bolt on the passenger side of the block below the exhaust manifold, screw the knock sensor in (with teflon tape) and torque to 14 in/lbs. Run the signal wire to pin B11 on the harness. Working it into the harness means taking some of it apart, but you can splice it into the cabin connector by taking advantage of one of the wires that were disconnected from the harness.

Removing a memcal


'165 memcal


'727/'730 memcal with knock board


Knock sensor position

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Some other things I should mention are that these bins are far from perfect and will require some tuning on your part. Theres no power steering logic in $32B so with the wheel fully cranked at low speeds it may stall. I raised the stall saver speed to 500rpm to counter this. I've occasionally encountered stalling, but I'm in Denver so this probably won't be a problem for anyone at lower altitude. You could hook up an analog maf and run $6E so you can use highway enleanment. The v6's already get nearly 30mpg on the highway, and with highway enlean mileage should be impressive. Maybe we could stirr up some interest in a highway enlean patch for $32B?

With this ecm's tuneability you can modify your v6 however you want. Headers, radical cams, porting, block swaps, 3x00 top end swaps, turbocharging and anything else. The biggest restriction for v6 owners has to be the lack of interest in the v6 ecms, with that out of the way anything's possible.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

Just go my 165 ecm today... planning to crank the boost past 7psi in an 88 bird. I have both types of MAF sensor, do you know if the V6 (digital) MAF can read as many g/s as the V8 analog MAF?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Prior to putting an electronic transmission into my 3.1 S10, I was working with a 1986 Fiero ECM ("170 ECM, $24 code) to run the MPFI 3.1. Its a MAP ECM that supports a 2-bar MAP sensor(personally tested it) and has an XDF available.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The V6 MAF can only read 150 gms/sec and the V8 MAF can read 255 gms/sec.

fictmich

Hey I've got a 3.1 without a MAF sensor, would this work for that or would I need to do something else?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

fictmich-You have a '730 ecm, which has plenty of support. Do a quick search and you'll find a ton on it.

ttypecamaro- the tpi maf with the $6e mask would be the better setup to use, I have some wiring diagrams if you need them. You're on your own working out the bin though, there's alot that needs to be changed.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

isn't the wiring going to be the same as $32B plus two more wires to the MAF and the burnoff relay? I have a chilton's

things to change:
-cylinder select ($C0)
-injector flow rate (37pph@43.5psi)
-scale down some of the P.E. & A.E. stuff (maybe the blm load boundaries too) due to lower Load(LV8) from the smaller engine.
Is that the extent of the changes, or can you think of more.

do you think I could transfer most of the values from the stock tune? or do they need to be tweaked once transfered? I shouldn't need to modify the definition file like you did if I go with the analog meter, right?

I have a base tune for the stock $3A mask with LT1 injectors and 7psi (93octane). The stock MAF can actually measure more than 150g/s... I multiplied the MAF tables by .76 and it still pegs at 150g/s (just at a higher digital count) while maintaining the proper AFR. In theory, it is accurately measuring up to 197g/s, and I haven't tried to go any higher because the injector duty cycle is getting high.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The v6 maf doesn't have a burnoff relay and such so the v6 wiring is much simpler. I'll post a pic of the TPI relay wiring.

There's much more that needs to be changed. I'd have to go through the definition I made and make a list to tell you all of them, and some of the things I had to change probably won't be added to most copies of $6E. I also had to tweak a few tables to get things running right. Things don't just translate nicely from the '302 to the '165 as much as I wish they would've. You might have to mess with the definition file as well, but not too much. Most of what I had to change in $32B was maf related so things weren't mislabled or have the wrong conversion factor.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Here's the analog maf wiring.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Using a few formulas and the good 'ol butt dyno I've released new base bins. Same names as before except with (C) at the end. These have a considerably shorter pw table, Int and Blm's show it's running leaner.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Wideband's here! Forget the old (B) and (C) tunes, now I have a definitive awnser on how it's really running. I'll release the final tune as soon as I can.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Several people have asked me what the benefits to a swap like this are, so I thought I'd post them all here.

Obviously the main benefit is being able to tune. You can't datalog with the stock ecm, so achieving an accurate tune is nearly impossible even if you have a scanner (which is another $200!) and even if you could datalog with the stock ecm the '165 transmits data at 8192 baud (3-4 datapoints/sec) vs the stock ecm's 160 baud (1 datapoint/1-2 sec's) and the '165 also processes data at a higher rate. The stock ecm is tuned a bit rich, so by tuning the 'slop' out of it you can get more power and better mileage. The '165 also has features like decel fuel cut off and decel enleanment that can enhance fuel mileage. Another huge benefit is the ability to add a knock sensor. If you get your tune wrong or something fails and your engine runs lean knock retard is there to bail you out. You also have the option to use the TPI maf which reads up to 255 g/sec airflow, whereas the stock one only reads 150 g/sec. You can also run a TPI maf in boost without inaccurate readings like you'd get with the stock maf. And by using the $6E mask you can use highway enleanment which has the potential for great mileage gains.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

Having a manual trans wont matter correct? Im curious as to what kind of difference youve seen in this in fuel mileage and power difference. is it like 1 or 2 miles a gallon and from the butt-dyno is the difference "eehhh" or quite a big difference? I was going to have a guy tune mine for me this spring for $200, but if i can pull this off for less than half the price..... hmmmmmm. im fairly new to the tuning world so a lot of this stuff is greek to me yet.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

There's a switch in $32B to select either a manual or auto. I'm still working out the tune (I just got the wideband 3 days ago) so it's hard to say just what benefits I'll realize with this, but I'm definately happy with it so far. I was getting about 17 mpg before, now I regularly see 22 mpg (all city driving). DFCO and decel enlean make a big difference, I can't wait to see what I'll get after I get it dialed in. There's a slight hesitation going to wot from a dead stop, but like I said I'm still ironing out the details. Wot still feels more or less the same because it's still using the stock power enrichment tables, but what suprised me was how much smoother it felt. With a little more spark and careful attention to wot afr I'll be able to get it to pull harder. And it idles like glass, it used to surge and burble with the stock ecm. I should mention that the injectors are from a 2.9L ranger (part no. F1ZE) and I have an open exhaust, but otherwise it's completely stock. The 2.9L injectors are great, fuel atomization and response is 1000X better than the stock injectors. Thanks to jstrdn90rs for suggesting them.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Small update. An ALDL definition file for the '32B (v6) XDF' with the MAT input modified for LC-1 input is now available at moates.net. This definition file allows you to input WB data directly from an LC-1 into pin C12 and display the actual AFR inplace of the MAT data. File name is "1227165 B (WB)" in the Datastream Definitions section.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Consider me subscribed!

Wow, my head hurts. I'm just learning the intricacies of tuning and this is pretty overwhelming!

Whew! I need a beer!

Thanks guys.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Yea, and this is just the part swapping end of it.
Things don't start getting complex until you get into the actual tuning. Then there's source code modifying. I tried learning a little source code- it was like running into a wall. Unless you have a background in it writing/modifying code is a very steep learning curve.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Another update, turns out the MAT input measures resistance instead of voltage, so the "1227165 B (WB)" aldl definition file is inaccurate. A corrected one that uses the fuel pump signal pin (B2) for WB input is available under the name "1227165 C (WB)". When using the updated aldl definition wb output needs to be adjusted to 12:1AFR @ 0volts and 17:1AFR @ 5volts. And yes, the final bin is almoast ready.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

As promised, the final bins for $32B. The new names are '2.8 \165ecm (F)' and 'Stock 2.8 \165ecm (F)'. I've decided to leave the BPW table alone because the ecm switches from the CTS to the MAT for some tables when using the BPW table. Keep that in mind when tuning with it. The stock closed loop and wot tables seem to be doing well enough on their own so they're stock too, but the difference in accel enrich (pump shot) should be noticeable between the two. No bog and a nice 'lil push where there was none before. I've spent a lot of time getting the feel of dfco just right on the second bin. It doesn't trigger so often that it's irritating, but it should cut fuel just about every time you let off the throttle. Tcc lock is smoother and stays locked at a higher throttle position. It should run leaner when the tcc's locked, kind of a "phantom highway enleanment". I still haven't figured out why it does this, but it's a great feature I didn't expect. Enleanment is proportional to throttle position, up to 16.5:1.

Now for those who want to switch to $6E and and analog maf (that reads over 255g/sec) Fast355 has the solution. He plans to use a ford 70mm t-bird maf on his 3.4/3500 hybrid, which is the perfect solution for us v6'ers. You don't need to wire up extra relays because it doesn't have a burnoff function. Just switch plugs, burn a new chip and hook it up with a 3" rubber coupler.

Boostin'xr4

Great writeup! Where do I get the EEPROM chip?
Is it specific to this ECM, or is it a generic chip?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It's just an SST 27sf512 eeprom. Craig (moates.com) has them for $5.00 ea. or you can get them from an electronics distributor like mouser.

tequilaboy

Thanks for the tip on the fuel pump pin (B2).

I will try and use this pin for the MAF input for use with the 05+ Ford slot style MAF (Hitachi) that I've been working on lately.

I will just need to correct the bin to read A/D ch 6 instead of A/D ch A for the MAF input reads.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I'm beginning to see why gm programmed wot so rich on these engines. I've got it running 12:1 consistently at wot and it just feels nutless. I think I'll go back to 10:1 (about where it was with the stock tables) and take out some spark.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Seems as though the 60*'s like rich conditions. Dave's (purple82ta's) 3500 powered Cavi likes 10:1 or so, but made 290whp N/A.

Every 3500 I have torn apart has excessive carbon build-up, even those with low miles.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

It would be interesting to find out why. Even running at 15:1 instead of 14.7 I can feel a big difference in power. I wonder if I wouldn't get better mileage running slightly below stoich.

coolrimsatleast

I guess I'll start stocking up on parts so I can do it this spring/summer. You'll be seeing a couple thousand questions from me about what else to change since I'm running a 3.4

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

haha, ive already started hitting him up w/ questions about this, lol

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Here are the high lean cruise parameters that I am using. Gets 33 MPG at 65 - 75 MPH consistently. 3.1l in a '92 f-body.

RBob.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Now if only I could convince someone (hint hint) to help me out with a highway enleanment patch for $32B. There's a six-pack in it for anyone interested.

Ps happy St Patty's day!

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Some more insight into tuning the 6's.

Because of the relatively large combustion chambers the stock heads have they preffer more spark advance. You almost can't give them enough. I added another 10 degrees to the stock spark map with no sign of knock.

In many mileage-related tuning articles people avoid using highway spark advance because it doesn't benefit mileage and can even be problematic for some, but I've found that the 60*'s run better with highway spark enabled and even need the extra spark to keep from lugging the engine at speed. Mileage improves when highway spark is used because it kicks out of tcc lockup less often.

Locking the tcc below 40mph tends to lugg the engine too much and hurts mileage. Try limiting tcc lockup to 40-70mph, locking it outside those speeds tends to hurt mileage more often than not.

Take this with a grain of salt though, this is what's worked best for me up here in colorado. Lower altitude means more torque and less need for extra spark. I'm starting to reconsider highway enleanment, I'm not sure how much it would really benefit mileage.

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Interesting stuff. Of course my brain hurts but I need to do this kind of swap.

midwest

I want to get into this.
I need to understand it more to see if its something i want to try. So whats a knock board as in "Before you can install a new chip you'll need to remove the old eprom chip and the knock board from the '730/'727 memcal. You can either desolder them or -carefully- punch them out a pin at a time u"?
And where is the "knock module"
How to you put it into the 165?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The knock board is the white board on top of the memcal. The knock board does the same thing as the knock module, so no need for an external module. The '730/'727 memcal come with a knock board, all you need to do is plug it back into position on the memcal.

coolrimsatleast

Thanks for picture. What software is that by the way? I did a search for 'hiwy' but didn't really find anything.

Looks to be a nice weekend, so tomorrow I'll begin my search among the various F-bodies and s-10's or blazers at the local yard for the ECM. I think there's a couple 3.1's there, so I'll be able to get a knock sensor too.

That reminds me though that I have a rattle between 1500-1700 rpms, and I need to pull the valve covers to at least check the rockers. Beyond that I'm not sure.

The rattle along with a knock sensor probably wouldn't work well.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The picture is of Tuner Pro displaying the calibration values. For a search try "lean cruise" and "highway mode" and "high way mode." See if they come up with anything. The term "hiwy" is a shortened version for the XDF file.

RBob.

coolrimsatleast

I managed to find a 730 memcal, but there were no 165 ECM's. I forgot to bring bigger sockets, so the knock sensor was a bust too, but I might just go get one at the parts store if they're not to much.

Are the 165's limited to tpi v8's and 4cyl s-10's and blazers, or is there another car I can get one from?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

There's a few other vehicles I can't think of off the top of my head. Best bet is the 4-cyl blazer/s10's since they're the most common.

midwest

would this be a good one for a boosted v6?

midwest

After doing some reading it seems like this may not be the best setup for a boosted v6 mainly because it is a mass system and not a speed density system.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Don't be fooled into thinking that maf systems are inferior to sd when it comes to turbocharging. True, the sd system can measure actual plenum pressure- then indirectly calculate airflow, but the maf system measures actual airflow. The only possible advantage a sd system might have is during transient conditions (throttle closing/opening, bov opening) but is it really going to make a major difference? Probably not. In my mind the whole sd vs. maf debate is awash when it comes to forced induction. Maf is just as good a system for forced induction as sd.

midwest

Not to debate or argue, just trying to get some more info before i lay down any money on either system.
How would a maf system be able to retard the timming to match the boost?

I can sight example of sd and maf systems for forced induction.
eagle talon, is a maf system, buick gn is a maf system, gm syclone typhoon is map,
----------
Not to debate or argue, just trying to get some more info before i lay down any money on either system.
How would a maf system be able to retard the timming to match the boost?

I can sight examples of sd and maf systems for forced induction.
eagle talon, is a maf system, buick gn is a maf system, gm syclone typhoon is map,

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Some turbo maf ecm's do corrections based on map sensor readings, but do actual fuel & timing calcualtions based on LV8 (maf's load calculation). Others have a maf flow correction table based on mat input and stick to the base timing tables.

Your best choice would be converting to a GN ecm, but non-turbo ecms can be made to work as well. Reprogram the coolant compensation table to refrence the mat sensor and place the mat sensor after the turbo/intercooler (maf ahead of the turbo) and retune from there- or use an existing mat correction table if present. Or you could ignore it. Assuming the intercooler you're using is up to par timing shouldn't stray much.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Another member who's recently done the swap informed me that he didn't need to repin the IAC wires (C5 & C6). Certain years may need it (mine did) others won't. Easy to tell if it's wired wrong, it will either run like crap or rev way up when started.

tcflint

iTrader: (4)

What year did he have? I will be doing my swap in the near future on my '89.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

An '89 actually.

tcflint

iTrader: (4)

Sweet