dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

For those interested, I got some more time to get back to working with the '411 and making a basic set of XDFs to allow people to tune with tunerpro-rt. Tunerpro can handle pretty much all the needed functions of tuning with these PCMs. The XDFs currently cover the engine fuel/emissions/idle/spark/cool fans/diag. and some basic transmission parameters.

The next thing I will add is the TCC stuff so those with 700-R4s can still have normal TCC functionality when using the PCM in a retrofit application.

If there is enough demand, I will also add the e-trans/e-throttle stuff as well.

Currently tuning is only by the roadrunner until I get to test all the XDFs to make sure everything works. At some point, there will also be flashing (if all goes well). While flashing can be pretty robust if its set up right, its still possible to screw the PCM up to the point where the flash needs to be pulled and re-programmed externally, so its a good idea to test it all first.

The files will be hosted at: www.omnituner.com

Also, I attached some previews of whats in the XDFs currently...

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Heres the emissions, fuel, and idle control:

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

And the spark, trans., and vehicle options:

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Even though there are a lot of parameters there, theres still more that can be added. Probably whats there is about 70% of whats editable for each category. If there are things that people want to edit, I can add those in as well down the road.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Can't wait to get this and see if I can use it for my 6 cyl applications.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

It should probably also be able to handle the six cyl. calibrations as well. Most of the '01/'02 calibrations for these PCMs are pretty close to each other. The main difference with the 6 cyl. stuff is the config of the hardware logic of the PCM, as only 6 instead of 8 injector drivers are used, and the ignition timing/DIS calcs will be different.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Just an update: It wont work for 2002 vehicles/PCMs with the stock OS. AFAIK, it looks like GM standardized the OS (PN 12212156), which is similar, but has some stuff shuffled around. So keep in mind that you may have to swap out the OS to an earlier cal if you want to use the XDFs and TP to tune. Basically, only about 70% of the tables are correctly defined. The others moved when they reshuffled the routines making the new OS for the 2k2 model years. I have access to a lot of bins. I can probably post some up for people to select from when I release the XDFs.

I could make seperate XDFs, but its really time consuming to actually track everything down and see where it moved to in the bin.

J_D_

I think its great that you are doing this. I am intrested, just so I may be able to use it to help someone else out, in the future.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Can't wait to get my 0411 back into action with this. Looking good buddy!

At the moment I am back to TBI on the Van. The nitrous bottle is going on it soon. With the Ram its just a toy now. About to get a huge weight reduction, 4.56 gears, detroit true track, etc.

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

wow, that is impressive........

great work, I hope to one day be able to put this to use!

Saar

i mean absolutely no disrespect by this, but i'm slightly more interested in whatever software and hardware is going to be used to upload and download the BINs into the PCM, since it may only require slight tweaking to work with the 98-02 V6 PCMs...

J_D_

I was also wondering about the hardware.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

AFAIK, the 98-00 PCMs are not the same as those used from 01-02. The 01 and 02's are the same physically, but for the 02 model year, they went to a slightly different code that standardized the OS for all the calibrations. The upload/download software (being worked on by someone else) will likely not work on the older pre-2001 computers due to the differences in the internal hardware and OS. Theres a lot of variance with the computers used over the years GM had the OBD-II VPW system before they went to CAN and the newer style of PCMs.

J_D_

Any more, on this ?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The engine XDFs are done. I will be posting them shortly. They will likely now be posted on moates.net so they have a permanent home where I can easily update them. Youll be able to tune by the roadrunner, but not by the cable (yet). Thats still in the works, as well as datalogging.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

I def. want to get these done, so they will be out soon. Im also getting my car back on the road so I can test them. Im going to try to use tunerpro for as much of the stuff as possible. I think TP can do the datalogging, but the reflash requires a bit more work and is outside of the scope of what TP can do. I was working with a guy who had a working framework for reflashing, but hes been MIA for a while, so Im not sure whats up with that.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

XDFs are now up: www.moates.net/projects/0411. I havent had a chance to really test them as Im still waiting to get the PCM in the car. They work for the tables, but I havent verified that all the checksums are correct. The calculation is right, but if one parameter in the XDF falls outside of the checksum areas enabled in that XDF, it will corrupt that section of the bin.

Saar

nothing short of excellent....

and for anyone who wants to at least see what things look like, the "_'01 Vette" file in the moates file manager in the OBD2 section seems to be correct.

The_Punisher454

So it looks like I should be able to add a zif-socket to an 0411 (did it once back in 2001) and make a high-res sensor wheel for a big block project I have in the works. I have always assumed you should be able to use a vortec distributor for the cam sensor. I figure the sensor wheel will be the really tricky part.
Anybody here gone down that road yet?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

I havent actually looked into whether the distributer and the sensor resolution are seperate options. Probably something worth checking into. I know there is the option for the standard low res crank trigger wheel, but I havent seen any options for the distributor. Its possible that they may be assumed to be together. IOW, the high res crank trigger and DIS, or low res crank trigger and dist.

The_Punisher454

What I would like is to use the CNP coils with just a 4-tooth crank sensor and the cam-position sensor both as found on a 96-99 5.7 vortec. I am almost 100% sure the cam sensor will work, the functionality is the same on the vortec SBC and LS1, a hall sensor reads a 180degree ring on the cam. Basically tells the cpu if its on the first or second crank rotation, but of course the starting angle has to be set right.

If the CNP can work with the 4tooth crank sensor, then its just a simple matter of using a few common pieces of vortec parts easily found at any pick-pull. No hardware fabrication needed other than mounting the coil packs.

Oh well, If nobody tries it first, I'll probably do it during the next winter season, I just got my Ostrich-2 in the mail the other day and I think I'm going to be busy with that all summer

BTW, awesome work on the XDF's I just took a look and they look great!

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, I misunderstood. Yeah, the vortec distributer base has a standard 180 degree shutter type reluctor and hall effect sensor. If the LS1 is the same, then it will work just fine for your cam sensor. But, you will need to be more precise when locating it relative to TDC. In the vortec app, the crank sensor determines where TDC is, and the cam sensor basically just serves to both let the PCM know when #1 TDC is reached, and what the distributors actual position is relative to #1 TDC.

The DIS coils will require the high res. crank sensor reluctor. The PCM needs that to properly place the spark for each cylinder when using the coils. The low res sensor is a period type affair that isnt real accurate during sudden transitions. It basically just gives the PCM an idea of where TDC is so the PCM knows when to fire the injectors and ignition coil.

FWIW, the vortec ignition system is actually a pretty good system. Its much better than the HEI stuff, and is more accurate as the PCM directly controls the ignition coil. If you dont mind having a dist., it would save a lot of headaches. I dont know if the DIS LS1 coils can be made to work when only using a low res system. There is a lot of code that is specifically tied into whether you have the 4x or 24x crank pos. sensor in place. To change this requires updating the PCMs software.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

To elaborate on why its necessary to have the 24x sensor, you need to recognize that the vortec distributor is a time domain system, while the DIS is a radial position domain system. The vortec coil basically just needs to be triggered based on the desired dwell and the spark advance. The distributor takes care of all the sync'ing. During sudden transitions, the worst that happens is the spark will be retarded or advanced based on how much the PCM is lagging. During sudden transitions or rough engine operation, its actually possible for the 4x system to fall out of sync with the crank. I had this happen when I was running too much advance. The sudden pressure rise would rapidly slow the piston down as it came to TDC. This results in the coil being fired at the wrong time since the PCM can only update where the crank is 4x per rev. If its bad enough, the engine will basically break up and essentially stop running.

With a DIS system, the PCM needs to place the spark relative to the cranks position so that cylinder can recieve the correct spark advance. Its no longer just a matter of how often the coil needs to be fired. Now its relative to the position of the crank. This requires a lot more precision than a single coil distributor system as you need to be able to finely resolve where the crank is to properly place the spark. With a 4x system, the PCM has no clue where the crank is between the pulses. The best it can do is use a derivative feedback system to try to correct for changes in the engines speed.

The_Punisher454

I'm a little surprised about the alleged inaccuracy of a 4x sensor timing system. I was under the impression that the vortec detects misfire's based on the expected CKP sensor timing. That signal is good enough to fire the plugs to at least within 1/2 degree or better as well as sequence the injectors.
I wish I was a better programmer, I think this would be one of the first mods I'd do. Because surely the 0411 is keeping track of the current crank angle using a timer regardless of whether it gets reset from a 4x or 24x frequency.

But anyhow, I guess its not too big a deal to just fab the proper 24x sensor wheel :|

On another note, you mention that the Vortec ignition is pretty good on its own. I basically agree with one exception, the cap.
I have discovered the hard way that the cap (even a top of the line cap) has a serious design flaw. Let me explain;

If you have either some bad plugs or (in my case) some bad plug wires it will kill the cap DEAD! Totally dead as in no-start at all, traditional caps of just about any kind will just start running bad when the cap gets worn out. But what happes with the vortec's crossfire cap is that something like a bad plug wire that has too high resistance will cause the spark to jump from the center bushing (where the coil post goes to the rotor) through the bakelite to the nearest conductor, you know the one that bends around the coil stud. Once it jumps through it will start burning a path and at some point it will start to favor that path.
It starts with the occasional mis here and there, much worse on cold humid mornings. If it gets bad enough to start setting a code then you probably are just about at the point where it will decide not to start one day.
I've had it happen twice. the first time wasnt my fault, I didnt know what the condition of the plug wires were on the used burb I bought, but I did put a fresh cap on it and about 4 months later is started acting up, culminating in permanent no-start until I changed the cap.
Out of sheer morbid curiosity I kept the old plug wires again to see if it would do it the same way again, and sure enough, same exact symptoms and end result.
I'd post pictures of the cap, but the camera dosent really show it, the caps look brand new except for a VERY faint white residue at the bend of the offending conductor. not even a burnt looking spot.
What really spooks me about these caps is that if they go bad they just plain wont even start.
Anyhow, be sure to get the Vortec caps with the lifetime guarantee.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The 4x isnt inaccurate. Its more an issue of the fact that the PCM cannot monitor the position of the crank as basically the crank speed only updates 4x per rev. This would make it more difficult to properly place the spark for each cylinder since the PCM would essentially have to guess where the crank is based on when the last pulse was recieved, and how fast the engine is going. For a DIS system, you need multiple pulses to properly locate the crank in real time. Most of this is actually done at the level of the processors timing processing unit (TPU), which runs on its own microcode that isnt normally accessable, or easy to edit. I would consider trying to use a 4x wheel for DIS to be something that would be, at the very least, extremely impractical to impliment given the complexity of the '411 PCMs. Youd be much better of going what you suggested, in fabbing up a 24x wheel.

I was sort of aware of the potential issues with the cap as well with my experience with DOHC quad 4 engines and their funky ignition system. Same issues. The spark can jump between the leads in the plastic housing, and cause a bad misfire or no start. Thats a problem with any type of distributor. If an open wire is present, it will eventually carbon track anything nearby. I have one of the summit billet ones, and so far I havent had any issues yet.

At any rate, its a small price to pay to get away from all the problems that the older HEIs have in high RPM applications. I burned those out left and right with my last setup.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have never had issue with the older HEI's especially the large caps when running them with MSD boxs. I have spun the large cap past 6,500 rpm plenty of times.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Anyone have a stock 02 Express van 5.7 .BIN file hanging around by chance?

The_Punisher454

I didnt know they still had the 5.7 in 02 ?

I did download all the obd2 bins at moates and ran all of them through tunerpro using the '0411 XDF to try to identify them. I know theres a list somewhere on the web but I couldnt find it. Anyhow took two evenings but I was able to seperate the F-body Y-body Holden and silverado bins.

Also for making this a little easier it would be cool to find the address of the VIN number and add it to the XDF.

anyhow bin # 035363832 appears to be for a 6.0 express van, that probably wont help much.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

With an aftermarket box providing the ignition theyre ok. The stock modules are useless, though. If you take one apart, the power section is just a small transistor and some zener diodes providing inductive kickback suppression.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

The vin address is in the OS section. Calculating the checksum is a little more involved due to how the code is set up. Its possible, but itll take some tinkering to make tunerpro do it.

I have two express bins. The first is an '01 bin which is compatible with the XDFs. The second is an '02 bin based on the later code.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Heres one for the 5.7L. FWIW, the only differences between the various displacement bins are the cyl. displacement, and main composite VE table. The main VE table is actually a function of VE x cyl. displacement. There may be other things like the injector flowrate.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Is there a list of bin files available on moates.net that are for use in the '0411?

Dominic Sorresso

dim,

Any chance the PCM would fire CnP coils using a 9x wheel found in LT-5?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I think you would need custom machined wheels. Pretty much what I am looking to do with my 392 stroked 5.7 Hemi that I am building.

Dominic Sorresso

Fast,

Good to hear from you again. Seems we both have moved on. There is some thought to putting a 24x reluctor on the snout of the LT5. When designing the motor, they were very concerned with maintaining accurate timing. To do so, the LT5 reluctor is cast into the middle of the crank. No wobble. Also, the ignition module is effectively a co-ECM. NOLA and they can't be repaired. So the LT5 community is looking at alternatives altho the IM is a very stout piece.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Much of the coil and injector handling is done at the level of the TPU. Most of that cant be changed. How are the LT5s laid out?

Dominic Sorresso

TPU?

The LT5 is a variant of the $8D. Altho it has 16 injectors, the primaries are ECM controlled. The secondaries receive firing pulse from the associated primary injector. The ECM energizes a relay that drives the secondaries. So the ECM has 8 injector drivers not 16. On the ignition side, the module does the work of the distributor. That makes it difficult to replace the IM. Especially since we are dealing w a 9x reluctor. Now if someone were to modify the PCM code to deal w energizing the secondaries, it could be acceptable to work w a 24x reluctor on the crank snout to drive 8 CnP. Then there is the
PCM CCM handshaking.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The LT5 ignition works just the 60 degree V6 DIS ignition systems. The signals to and from the ECM are very much like a dizzy, except for the offset, I don't recall exactly what the LT5 ignition is, the 60 degree V6 offset is 60*, meaning there is an additional 60* of timing over what a dizzy equipped engine would use.

With an additional reluctor wheel and two crank sensors, as per the system requirements the N* DIS system could be adapted to the LT5.

Just for reference here are a couple diagrams for the LT5 ignition system, it's really as basic as the 60 degree ignition system, less sophisticated than the Buick or N* system. It's too bad that GM didn't use them on more applications, adapting them to other V8s would be much easier than the N* system.





The only thing I haven't seen the function of is the "DIS Fault line" This may or may not be an hurdle to getting a different ignition system to work. The 660 and I4 DIS systems that are similar don't have that line. I haven't seen it mentioned in the later Buick 3.8 diagrams, but I haven't paid much attention to them.

Dominic Sorresso

SS,

What do you know about how the LT5 IM works relative to the Buick or N* module?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Thanks man same here. I actually still have the Van but it has a nitrous snorting TPI 383 now.

I really want to pull the 5.7 out of my 5,500 lbs quad cab Ram, slap a cammed 4.7 back in it with ported heads and headers, then put the 5.7 in something light. I have a 94 camaro that came with a 3.4/5speed combo that needs some major work. My thought is to get an adapter, run a built 4L60E and a built up 5.7 Hemi with the 0411 pcm. I could run it with a Chevy drive by wire throttle body even. The Hemi engine is a GREAT design just needs some tuning help to run in an enviroment outside the one Chrysler created. It actually put down 378 RWHP in the crazy heat we have been having using the stock heads, stock intake manifold, and runs very stong in the truck. I have a set of heads that came off a 2009 5.7 that flowed 340 cfm @ .500 stock and flow 368 cfm @ .500" now through a 2.05" valve. They will give me 11:1 compression on the stock 07 engine. I also have a cam 2 steps larger already in my possession and a car intake with a low mounted front throttle body. I want to prove the Hemi can hold its own against the LS1 and whats better to prove it in, than a direct comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHGD4AED39Y

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

It may actually be better to use the coil packs like the LS1s. Even on the vortec setup there is no EST. The coil is instead controlled directly by the PCM. It uses the cam sensor to locate the distributor, and then determines when it has to turn on the coil. The coil is driven by an amplifier which isolates the PCM and amplifies the signal to the coil to drive it. On the LS1, the coils are turned on similar to the injectors, using the high res CKP signal to locate the crank.

It would be possible to use the EST, but you would need to use code similar to what was used on the earlier computers, and relocate the timing signal to one of the D/A outputs.

As for the injectors, the 411 has fairly robust driver transistors that could also be replaced with something even bigger. The transistors are a TO-220 housing type, so you could probably squeeze some serious switching power in there. For the injectors, you could then just pull them out to a relay box that parallels the injector power to either one or two injectors for each driver. The relays would then all be switched on between an injector firing when all the injectors are commanded on. Probably could even use solid state switching transistors.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

So long as you have the right crank signal the 411 should work without issue. Youll probably need to fab up a trigger wheel for it, or even just use an existing one if it can be adapted to the hemi platform.

Im not familiar with how theyre ignitions are laid out. As I said earlier, much of the sequential timing/injector logic is in the TPU co-processor (timing processing unit), which runs on its own code preset at GM.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Im also still working on what to do with a cable. If people just want to use the roadrunner rather than flashing, I might just say screw it and work with the ELM. I think tunerpro can do the scanning as-is, or maybe with a little work. The ELM, though, wont be good for flashing, and may not even work as, IIRC, 4x VPW is one of the requirements to get the PCM to allow you to flash.

And, as I mentioned at my site, dontations will help if you can spare a little Havent gotten any yet, or I have and someone in Nigeria is getting them instead. Never know in this day and age.

Im tight myself as my DD needs a lot of work, so all my money is going to that right now. The camaro is on hold at the moment, so I havent had a chance to try out the 411 yet.

The_Punisher454

I myself have no interest in the roadrunner. It appears to be a great product and I hope it does well, but its not for me.
Surely there will be a faster successor to the elm327 sometime soon. Isnt the ELM just a PIC or AVR uC? If it is I do know that PIC's and especially AVR's have had some serious speed increases in the last few years. Xmega AVR's run at 32Mhz stock on the internal oscillator and still execute most instructions in 1 clock. I'll bet thats gotta be fast enough for 4xVPW.

If I was a decent coder I'd do it myself. Unfortunately I cant write C at all and can barely read it, assembly is almost hieroglyphics to me. I am stuck at Bascom basic and still tend to just sit and stare at that quite often. I just make up for inefficient code with faster processors.

I have so many car projects lined up (most not for fun) that I probably wont be able to put a '411 to use within at least 18-24 months anyhow. If I was ready to use this sometime real soon I'd probably just mod a '411 for a ziff socket.

Still appreciate your work and willingness to help and share.

Marvin

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Craig has been working on something, but I think its still in the prototype stages.

There was another guy I was working with who had some alpha code for flashing, but I havent heard from him in a long time...

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I was suggesting the N* DIS because someone said that the LT5 crowd were looking for alternative DIS systems for the LT5. The N* DIS should only take a new trigger wheel, a couple sensors, and a few changes to bin settings to get it to work.

I would use the COP with the '411, that would just make more sense.

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Ive been programming my vortec blackbox like that. Its an extremely tedious process. Takes like 6 or 7 minutes to reflash a chip due to how big they are.

For something like the '411, which is rather convoluted compared to teh WYSIWYG programming in the vortec, it would be extremely impractical to tune by flashing.

Now what would be nice is if we could prod someone like Tunercat to release a stand-alone flashing utility for reflashing the PCMs.

Saar

if Tunercat won't, Madtuner(madtuner.com) might. he was mentioning something a while back to me about releasing a flashing program for i THINK the 96-?? V6 PCMs.

EagleMark

It may be somthing Moates and TunerPro could do?

dimented24x7

iTrader: (2)

Thats the path that we're pursuing now is to use a cable by moates with a plugin for TP.