ChargerBill

4. To clean up the engine compartment.
3. To reduce weight.
2. To reclaim parasitic loss from driving the pump.

1. To decrease back pressure!

I have found this to be substantial!
I tested my car with and without the AIR pump.

What I found is that my car runs more smoothly without air being shot directly into the exhaust flow. Amazing isn't it?
I don't think this has been mentioned before?

It's interesting that in the interest to be green, the amount of wasted resouces seem to counter the objectives.

A. The resources (chemicals, petro, etc) used to develop, test and manufacture this unneccasary equipement.

B. The wasted fuel, to move additional (AIR pump, hoses, lines, etc.)weight.

C. The wasted fuel, by decreasing (creating backpressure by pressurized air shooting against the exhaust flow and by adding another component for the engine to drive) fuel efficiency.

Food for thought.

Camaro305SB

This thread makes no sense. The info in it makes no sense, and I'm still trying to figure out why it was even posted. If I were you I'd look into how the AIR system actually works and what it does.... Maybe something thats not on the internet for a change....

ChargerBill

Camaro305SB,
To educate the masses (and yourself):
The AIR pump does one thing and one thing only. It shoots pressurized air into the exhaust manifold and cat.
If working properly this allows the exhaust system to heat up quickly after startup and during normal engine operation and is cycled off and the route of the airflow dumped, during deceleration, etc to control the temperature.
This is just one piece of the total emissions package.

In the interest of knowledge, please define exactly what your issue(s) may be?

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Our A.I.R. system is 20+ years old technology which was all they had back then. But nowadays modern cars do not need them therefore don't have them. Just cats now.

But the #1 reason for it to be on our cars is the Federal Law that requires it to be, regardless of any States that do not enforce it. Last time I checked? Federal > State.

Saar

the AIR pump exists for emissions reasons, not economy. the two are not always productive to each other, this being one instance.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Newer, more efficient engine designs do not need the AIR system to meet emissions regulations, but ours do. Do you really think all the Mfgrs would have spent the many millions of dollars down through the model years if they didn't have to? As it is illegal and would be very expensive to substantially modifiy (IE upgrade) all of the engine controlls to clean up our engines, the AIR system is still necessary for our engines to meet emissions regulations, not to mention a shooting offense here in CA because you will fail the visual inspection.

I know how to make enough power that the 2-4 hp it takes to operate the air pump doesn't bother me, but not passing the visual inspection in California, THAT bothers me.

TA

peterc005

I've removed the AIR pump and plumbing. Like the idea of reducing clutter in the engine bay and saving a few kilos.

Out here Camaros are rare, so I hope when I get an inspection the mechanic won't expect to see an AIR system.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Lol, this has to be the most ridiculous thing I have seen on here yet. Yes out of the 15 year existence and 150,000 members, nobody has ever thought of removing the air system before. You should try searching before you make such a wild claim.

To add technical input, the AIR system was designed to heat the cat. Modern cats do not require this.

ChargerBill

87350IROC,
You must be buddies with Camaro305SB?!
Let's stick to the facts.

What I stated:

"What I found is that my car runs more smoothly without air being shot directly into the exhaust flow. Amazing isn't it?
I don't think this has been mentioned before?"

And I have yet to find anyone mentioning this.

I suggest you read, comprehend and then use your words.

Talking to you two is like talking with a 5 year old, lol!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I see we have resorted to name calling? Way to keep it classy.

People talk all the time about how great their cars run without all the "emissions crap". Your next step will undoubtedly be to remove the rest of your car's features like cat, egr, a/c, rear seat, then you will really have a true race car. I deleted AIR on my car when I went with a modern cat. Absolutely no difference in the way the car ran. If you car ran better its either in your head or it bandaided some other problem with your car. The engine bay sure looks cleaner without the air system though.

Apeiron

More than amazing because the system is hardly ever injecting air into the exhaust.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I think the real question here is concerning the modern cat not needing the AIR system... If one could get away with not using AIR (if they don't have visual inspection or smog test, like where I live in Canada) then which type of cats would they need to buy that do not require heating up when the car starts up? My car smells soooo much less now that I put a cat instead of the gutted one I had before and it sounds more or less the same.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Any cat that does not have an AIR inlet should be good to go. I use a magnaflow universal. Granted I am not a cat expert. But if it doesn't have an inlet, it probably does not want extra air injected into it.

Saar

all cats benefit from having a properly functioning AIR system to get them up to temp quicker.... it's just that certain engines absolutely need them to meet emissions standards, while others can get away without them, then other still can get away without, but add anyways to meet stuff like SULEV and other standards.

peterc005

My Cat doesn't have any AIR inlet. Whoever fitted it just left the AIR pipe hanging and bent the tube around to block it.

cuisinartvette

LOL quoted for truth

Pump makes no difference in power...maybe a percieved gain.
Remember taking the ps pump off my old Camaro yrs ago thought it was a race car haha

Check your local laws.

Out here in Ca you can get your car impounded if pulled over and asked to pop the hood. If its missing off it goes. Last car I got impounded...when I got it out it was missing the carb intake console, rearend was blown out of it and the motor had a wrist pin knock. Nothing you can do.
My 67 is even supposed to have one on it.
Know it cleans things up but thats about the only benefit
LAPD doesnt mess with it much unless youre acting the fool...CHP just might. They are tough.

ChargerBill

During initial startup the AIR pump should always inject pressurized air (we all should be aware that it does cycle). I noticed the difference in idle when I disconnected the primary line. It was noticibly smoother. I'm not saying that it idled rough, just that there was a difference. I really didn't expect that. But, after thinking about the impact on the exhaust system it does make sense (we don't buy mandrel bent exhaust because it's pretty).
I think we all can agree that the idea behind headers, dual exhaust, and mandrel bends is to smooth the air flow. I'm aware of the other charateristics but they don't apply here.
So, why wouldn't backpressure from forced air be different?

By the way, my cats have a limited lifespan as well...

ibmtech

iTrader: (1)

I removed my AIR system many years ago, many engines ago. There was no increase in HP that is noticable, Engine ran exactly the same, Never ran any fast without the loss of the 3 lbs that the system weighed. Didn't change the sound of the engine any.. I have seen this post from several people that think they get can get hp increases because they do some home study which has no scientific factual data, they must have missed that phone call when General Motors called them to come work for their engineering department because they are smarter than everyone there. Get some factual data on here before posting this stuff.

You might have some truth to what you are saying, I removed all my emissions on my car and now I gained over 600 HP

ChargerBill

I agree with your general idea that there isn't much of a difference.
There obviously would be some minute difference though.

I never suggested the improvement was as drastic as you stated.

If I get 1/2 hp, I have then improved performance!

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."
I didn't come up with this on my own! Mr. Newton get's all the credit.

The engineers at GM had a very specific agenda that they met, and quite well.
I will state that increasing performance wasn't part of the AIR pump system at all though.

Science is simply gaining and cataloging of knowledge. I'm not going to look up the definition...

If the same conditions exist for multiple cars a simple observation could absolutely be considered scientific data. Science was in place well before computers.

I was hoping that others here would be interested in verifying this and check the results independantly and provide feedback.

I don't think I would get truthfull feedback at this point.

One thing I noticed is that a lot responders don't have a really good reason to want the AIR pump system. Although they are passionately against anyone who would remove it.

Basic open ended statements like "ridiculous", "check your local laws", etc.

I really expected much more.

I was hoping someone could express real efficiency concerns that could be debated.
What I would have asked is "how does this affect fuel efficiency after initial startup?" I was really waiting on this question...

Anyways, maybe someone could post 4 reasons to keep the AIR pump?
Consider it a challenge.

I am quite impressed with:
Hellz_Wings "I think the real question here is concerning the modern cat not needing the AIR system."

That is an example of a thought provoking statement indeed!



P.S. For those of you that live in states that impose "ridiculous" enforcement of AIR pump regulations, I suggest you vote those crazy politicians out or move (take your tax dollars with you).

peterc005

I think the basic answer is that AIR pumps were necessary to overcome limitations with early catalytic converters.

Newer cats have evolved and probably don't need AIR pumps. I've removed mine to save weight and clean up the engine bay.

TreeFiddy

- sounds rational

Wouldn't worry mate, no pink slip kid I've ever encountered has any clue what they're looking at Mine hasn't had one probably since it lived in the States.

Saar

1. smog ***** who will deny your registration, making it illegal to drive on public roads.

2. smog, since as a human, i like to breathe, and the AIR pump gets the cat up to working temp faster so it converts CO, HC and NoX into CO2, N2 and H2O faster.

3. if you do this without changing the calibration on the PROM, you'll actually throw off the fuel trims when the AIR pump is commanded on when in closed loop or getting near closed loop.

4. it does not degrade the performance of your vehicle.

those good enough?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is up for debate. It's also questionable if the component level provisions in the clean air act can actually be enforced against individual car owners vs industry professionals.

Many states, such as mine, don't require the components to be on the vehicle at all after 20 years. I'd love for someone to cite some case law regarding the issue.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I see that you are a newly registered member. Welcome.

With that said, I hope you are not going to be a problem. We've seemed to have had an influx with problem members joining, mainly camaro owners, and probably due to the recent popularity of the Camaro now being available new.

The rest of us, well we've been doing this for a very long time. You have not been a member very long to have a solid reputation, nor have you posted any credentials. May I suggest you sit back, relax, and do some reading for a while. We have a good 14+ years worth of posts. I'm sure anything you've thought of, or will think of, we have covered in detail.

-- Joe

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

In my state the Visual portion of the Inspections merely check that they are on place. If they are? Visual is passed, which is independent of Emissions. After the Visual comes the Emissions which verifies that the output is good. You could pull every emissions piece off, convert it to a carburetor, pass & you would still fail Inspection based on the Visual portion.

I personally knew a guy years ago who's 3rd gen was originally equipped with the single cat setup. He converted it to the dual setup. He passed the emissions portion with clean #s. But he failed on the Visual portion simply because of the single cat to dual cat swap he did. He converted back to a single cat to please them. His #s went up but still under the allowed limit. He passed. Really? He gets higher #s & passes but fails with lower #s because he car was not physically built "correctly"? YEP!

I could probably find a case law for you regarding this in my state since I am very connected to the Department at DPS with handles Emissions & Inspections, but I am not going to bother him over this.

So it is not a debate in my state at least yet I am not the one in Nazifornia.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm well aware that some states are like that. Mine is NOT one of them:

Saf-C 3220.02 Air Injection Pump/Pulse Air System.

(a) The air injection pump/pulse air system shall be required on all vehicles less than 20 model years old, if so equipped at the time of manufacture.

(b) A vehicle shall be rejected if:

(1) The air injection pump/pulse air system is missing;

(2) It is plainly obvious that the air injection pump/pulse air system does not function; or

(3) Any hoses associated with the air injection pump/pulse air system are missing or do not function.

Saf-C 3220.04 Evaporative Canister.

(a) An evaporative canister shall be required on all vehicles less than 20 model years old, if so equipped at the time of manufacture.

(b) A vehicle shall be rejected if:

(1) The evaporative canister is missing;

(2) It is plainly obvious that the evaporative canister does not function; or

(3) Any hoses, wires or cables associated with the evaporative canister are missing or do not function.

Saf-C 3220.05 Inspection of Exhaust System.

(a) A catalytic converter shall be required on all vehicles less than 20 model years old, if so equipped at the time of manufacture.

(b) A vehicle shall be rejected if:

(1) The catalytic converter is missing; or

(2) It is plainly obvious that the catalytic converter does not function.


This is somewhat newish. We repealed our original emissions laws in 2007:

#8915* Adopt, Repeal Saf-C 3200 various sections Official Motor Vehicle Inspection Rules (eff 6-22-07)

Which required a visual check of the above components on all vehicles.

A vehicle older then 20 years old, is basically considered a "collector" vehicle, and thereby can be modified.


Yep. The moral of the story is check your state law before you modify.

Well, state law isn't what I'm talking about. Federal law regarding removal of one of those three components, which would be enforced by the Federal Environmental Protection Agency, not a local cop like myself. I'd bet you won't find an example of a vehicle owner being find or prosecuted under the clean air act. From the opinion of those with higher legal degrees than mine, as well as my own, the CAA is not enforceable to individuals.

So I'm standing by my opinion that it is A-OK to remove such components here in the great state of New Hampshire, however I'd also recommend consulting an attorney.


--Joe

ChargerBill

Wow! Seems like the moderator doesn't appreciate open conversation or debate?
Have I now been labled a "problem member"?
Not sure what a "solid reputation" is?

I sure would like to see anything that mentions the impact on the exhaust system during the smog pump operation? Please post! I actually looked...

Eagle223usa

Relax Brother, Joe is just trying to tell you to validate your points with knowledge or facts. Solid rep means you can be counted on for good info. I think he may be concerned with you giving advice that could be against the law for some members...You tracking me?

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Never have I had an inspector look under the hood..........on my 89 I replaced my air pump with an air pump delete pulley and removed every wire, hose and tube including the tube going to the convertor. Plugged the manifold holes. Very difficult to tell it was ever there.

On my 87 I made the mistake of getting headers with the air ports.....so I am stuck with them on that car. Just shouda got headers without the air ports.

But when it starts up the inspector generally looks underneath to see if it has a convertor. With the headers, gutted convertor and a flowmaster........it rumbles pretty good. But never had any problems with inspections.

Edgar Cortes

Do I need to get a nother carb if I remove the smog pump.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Just food for thought for those of you in states with more relaxed emissions laws: Two of my friends moved to Arizona/Texas to get away from emissions testing, and gave me great static about "Nazifornia", and stripped and tossed all of their emissions equipment on their cars. Now both areas require emissions testing similar to California, and they had to spend THOUSANDS of dollars replacing the smog equipment they tossed. The ignorant and smug comments to move somewhere else also came to a screeching halt. Just because you do not have emissions tests NOW does not mean it is not coming. It is forced on states by the federal government holding back matching highway funds if they decide your areas' air is not clean enough.

As population grows and certain administrations tighten the requirements for clean air standards, the ripple effect is that more cities/states are being forced to do emissions inspections. So if you peel that stuff off, you might want to oil it and put it in ziploc bags for when the AIR ***** come to your area. More states are testing now than are not. Are you next?

TA

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Actually it's going the other way around. We're seeing more and more jurisdictions dropping emissions testing for pre-OBDII vehicles.

I'd be interesting to see citations of your specific examples in Texas, especially since we're seeing most states drop the IM240 (dyno) emissions testing systems.

Another thing to remember. The government works for us. If you don't like the way things are progressing in your area (smog ****, or federal regs) considering donating to the automotive lobby or politicians that will help change things. I live in one of the freest states in the country, yet we still had a couple things we needed to fix in the past years. After a lot of hard work getting people elected, and more hard work getting bills passed we were able to make some major changes to our emissions laws (striking down all the old ones), ensuring that NO town or agency can prevent a citizen from carrying a handgun or rifle somewhere (NO GUN BANS), striking down an ages old absurd law that made double edged blades illegal, and enforcing the right for citizens to stand their ground by use of force.

You can make change happen too!

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

No crap. I used to live in Salem, NH. The other Salem, haha.

I agree with the above. Many places are moving away from smog testing. In my area, smog checks have been so effective and new cars so reliable that they have found there is no reason to check anymore. Statistically too few people are failing to make a difference and support the cost of maintaining the program.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No kidding? Where in Salem?

Mass dropped the dyno test in 2008, with a rolling "don't have to check" on OBDI-II vehicles starting with 1996 model year in 2008. So in 2009 only 97 had to pass, 2010 only 98, and so on.

Technically however in Mass you still need to have a converter and all that jazz connected, unlike here in "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire

-- Joe

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure if you guys elected Ron Paul as your president he would abolish all of those laws!

P.S. Your state got royally screwed at the GOP convention in August.. You guys should be up in arms regarding this load of BS that the establishment GOP pulled on the voters.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Mostly true. But remember that AIR pumps came out in 1968 cars. While catalytic converters didn't come out until 1975. Cars are like wood stoves. They burn cleaner and have a more complete burn with increased air.

(My Dad's wood stove is a catalytic model. Those things are amazingly clean and have lonnnnnnnng run times. 40 hours on one load of wood. No visual or smell of smoke from the chimney. You can't even tell the stove is running from outside)

Today's cats are 1000x better than the stuff that was available 35 years ago. The days of hacking off a cat and gaining 20-30 HP are long gone. Even a good set of headers is lucky to get 25 HP.

I doubt there are any measurable or should I say noticeable gains to come from removing the AIR system. Lingenfelter tried removing the cat on a stock '93 LT1 engine. He gained a whopping 4 HP. This is about the same HP gain as you'd get by doing the throttle body cooling hose bypass mod.

I'm sure there probably is the odd person who gets caught and fined for emissions removal. But I sure have never heard of anybody personally getting caught. Now if your car has a burning blue cloud of stink behind you as you drive down the street, sure I can see getting an emissions fine.

I have an EGR and have to do yearly inspection/emissions here in Houston. Yet you can't see the EGR since I have a SuperRam. This has never been an issue.

I've never been hassled for having an AFPR. Let's not forget that those are for "off road use only." If you really want to get into nitty gritty rules. It's illegal to install a catalytic converter on a pre-1975 car in California. It's considered tampering with the emissions system. Go figure.

If I were to put headers on my car, I probably would get rid of the AIR. Why? It has nothing to do with performance or weight. More due to the fact that I burnt my hand on the AIR tubes last time I changed out my O2 sensor. And that annoyed me.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

What gets me as strange is that places are going away from OBD1 testing and just doing OBD2. Think about it. The OBD1 cars are much more likely to be polluters. And there is really no way around an emissions probe in the tailpipe.

Yet all the OBD2 Corvette guys with 800 HP, huge cam, huge heads, no emissions equipment, can tune their cars and get fake O2 sims and pass the emissions test. Even though the car smells like a lawn mower and makes your eyes water.

JohnyKrieg

Huh... I live in WA, and my Camaro is my 7th car... I don't think I've ever had a visual inspection. Basically as long as it passes it passes. And even if it doesn't, I think if you spend a certain amount on "repairs" and show receipts they'll pass you without a further test, they did that for my brother's Talon. Either way, I like the idea of being rid of it and switching to dual cats much more than bumbling around with the stock exhaust any longer...

peterc005

One quick question while we are close to the topic.

My Cat does not have an AIR port and the tube that runs down the firewall to the Cat for AIR is disconnected and blocked.

What is the best way to remove the AIR Cat tube, I can't get mine out is there a trick?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Because the number of OBDI vehicles registered in the united states is a small percentage of OBDII vehicles. While an individual OBDI vehicle might have the potential to pollute more than an OBDII vehicle, the number of them left is so small compared to OBDI vehicles it's not economically feasible to continue checking them.

Think about it. An emissions testing facility spends $40-60,000 on a special IM240 dyno. He also spends $15k on a "plug in" OBDII checker. 97% of his inspections use the $15k machine. He will never break even on the dyno.

Right, and that's probably a 10000th of a percent of the number of vehicles on the road yet again.

The purpose of the program is to maintain compliance with the majority of vehicles used today. The few that are very old, or that escape the testing are such minor polluters in whole that it doesn't justify the expense of trying to push them.

Besides. Most of this is junk science anyway, that is politically motivated. We're still in the tail end of the ice age, and the ice caps will melt and the earth return to it's pre-ice age conditions whether or not you drive a 800hp Corvette or a Volt.

-- Joe

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

WA does not have a visual inspection. Many states do. In those cases the car must have the equipment installed regardless of how clean the engine may burn without it.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I lived about a mile from American Stonehenge. Really nice area. Bad roads. Its been about 10yrs since I've been back.

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

I've never met a visual emissions inspection that a $20 bill wouldn't fix. I've never had to get sniffed though, hopefully never will.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

ChargerBill,

Though the primary purpose for injecting air into the exhaust is for emissions, injecting air into the primaries can actually increase horsepower. In fact, Smokey Yunick covers this topic in his book "Power Secrets".
As the oxygen reacts with the unburned hydrocarbons, the exhaust temp increases which generates more exhaust velocity (heat likes to travel to cold) the result is that scavenging increases. This is similar in principle to why people wrap or coat their headers.
Is this one reason why GM did air injection? No, but the broad assumption that introduction of air into the primary will decrease power is faulty. The only thing absolutely known without testing is that the pump itself requires power to be turned.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You could use wire an electric smog pump from a 4th gen.

-- Joe

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

I'm curious about this since I'm in Texas too. How can they tell if the car was originally a dual cat car or not?

I'm in Houston, so will have to have emissions check. Currently the car is a stock '92 RS TBI, single cat, everything functions as it should. I will eventually put on a Holley TB, and EBL Flash ECM I got from a friend (along with a mild 350 to replace the 305). Now, according to the EBL website, that version does not control the AIR pump. Since it won't be working, I was planning on removing the air pump, knowing that there's a possibilty of failing the visual. This would save a few $ by getting headers without the ports and the other 'advantages'. Right now, I have a real nice 2.5" dual cat into a 3" exhuast system laying around (not on the car). I was hoping to pick up some of Dyno Don's headers, and his 2.5" dual cat pipes. Swap out the cats for some universal Magnaflow ones (without the tube inlet). If I really wanted to be more legal, I could get the AIR cats and AIR headers, but you're saying that could still fail due to converting to dual cats?

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

I don't think there's any way that local emissions shop would be able to tell whether or not a car came with a single or dual cat setup. They just have a book with the laws. If a car is made after a certain date, it has to have a cat. I've never seen an inspection shop with a notebook showing a detailed schematic of the emissions system on every car on the road. That would take volumes upon volumes.

My bet is (if this story even happened) that the guy passed emissions with flying colors, and then started bragging about how he had upgraded to dual-cats. The shop said "whoa, put on the brakes, you can't legally mess with the emissions system at all," and failed him. Unless the owner told them, I don't see how there's any way they'd have known (unless the inspector was a 3rd gen guy, but then he probably would have just passed him anyway). Legally, you can't even upgrade to a new catalytic converter unless the old one is broken. In reality, how are they ever going to know if you don't tell them?

-cal30sniper

Saar

IIRC..... there may or may not be RPOs that correspond to the exact items in the exhaust system.

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

Yes, I believe it's RPO code N10. That being said, an inspection shop having a book with options codes for every year, from every manufacturer, is highly, highly unlikely. And even if they did, do you think they would check it on every car? I think not.

Besides, who's to say that you didn't "lose" your RPO code tag? (A lot of people actually have). Without that, there's no way for them to tell which options the car came with anyways. They can look at the VIN number and tell which 89-92 cars came with dual cats from the factory, but again, what kind of shop is going to have that kind of information?

cal30_sniper

iTrader: (16)

And not even the VIN tells all. Only auto L98 and manual transmission 89-92 LB9 cars came with dual cats from what I understand. The VIN # makes no distinction between a 305 auto and 305 manual LB9. That being said, the shop would still have to know what engines, from what years, came with specifically what catalytic converter setup. Where are they going to get that information from?