Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

I spoke with Ken at FIRST about a group purchase and he is willing to do one. After I see how many people want one, I will contact Ken with number to firm up discount amount. Please respond here and let me know by January 13th if you are interested.

Previous GP on here last year got around $200 with 6 or more people (see link at end of paragraph). I do not know if Ken will do same thing this year but should be similar. Of course more people the better. I will join and post this on corvette C4 forum. If you know of other forums or people that are interested please let me know.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/grou...on-intake.html

Base intake that will bolt up to our cars is $1,000. To have unit painted will start at $150. If you want to keep EGR valve, you will have to buy an older unit so it will bolt to side of FIRST intake (stock egr is under intake). Let me know if you need EGR and what car you have as Ken will need to know. It is recommended to find local place to polish or chrome intake if you want that look.

http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/

Here is a post with some links about FIRST
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...irst-fuel.html

ddahlgren

I would be interested depending on discount.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for letting me know.

Anybody else? FIRST is the best flowing TPI aftermarket system. The unit is an all in one manifold, tube runners and plenum. It also comes with all required gaskets, all stainless steel hardware, TPS bracket, throttle bracket, and fuel rails. Total is $1,000 before a discount.

A similar setup from TPIS will cost $1,180 and will not flow as much as FIRST
-$425 big mouth intake manifold
-$280 52mm throttle body
-$475 large tube runners

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

I'd be interested in a base and runners. I might be interested in the plenum as well, but I need to know if LS series throttle bodies bolt on in their place. I also need to know the total runner length.

Considering one for a 427 TPI.

Rickin Phoenix

I'm interested depending on the discount. I have a 89 Corvette and I want the EGR set-up. Blackdog36, I can't find the post you put on the Corvette forum yesterday, did they move it?

jamesw343

iTrader: (1)

was thinking about a FIRST intake,with a discount even better. i'm in

GPSkinzhut

iTrader: (2)

ddahlgren

Possibly whoever knows the people at First should get a few different quotes as far as quantity goes 6 10 15 20 sort of thing and if it is ok to mix in port sizes as personallyI am going to be using the GMPP aluminum Vortec heads and someone else might be using std cast iron heads so 2 different jobs for them at First..
Blackdog 36 is that you?
Dave

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

ddahlgren, I spoke with FIRST and they said to give them a call back after I had some interest. Looks like 4 to 5 people are interested. Below is a quote from FIRST regarding the GP post last year. I don’t know if we can get a similar discount now with the economy and everything. I am going to get one so any discount will help. I would like to see a few more people jump on and then I can call FIRST either before or after Christmas. They also make units that will fit standard 23 degree heads or vortecs. Plus manifold can be opened up to fit larger heads. You can also get side mounted throttle body which may be helpful to firebird/transam people.
"The price will depend on the number of guys that would purchase them. If you guys can come up with 6 or more we would get you the first tpi set up for $825 each. Otherwise we could go $900 for less than 6. If anyone has any questions, please have them contact us and we will do our best to answer them. We will be putting an end to our holiday offer Jan. 15th, however if we are contacted with a confirmation of purchase by then, we will extend the pricing past the 15th.Thanks Ken"

dhirocz, parts from FIRST are not interchangale with stock. I found this “Sorry man,,, the FIRST unit is a stand alone system. The FIRST unit's throttle body, plenum, runners, fuel rails, and base intake are not interchangable with the stock or aftermarket TPI parts. So, no the runner won't bolt up to the stock plenum. The runners are in 4 sections, runner spacing is different,,, as well as the bolt pattern that holds the runner sections in place. Here's a comparison of the plenums.” FIRST is actually shorter than stock unit. If I recall correctly, total intake length of stock TPI is 21” while FIRST is 17”. I found this quote in below post “If you compare the TPI and FIRST runners pictures, you can see that the FIRST runners are shorter (5.875” inside radius) than the stock type TPI runners (7.125” inside radius).” https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...n-runners.html

Rickin, yes they blocked my post. Found out that only sponsors of site can post group purchases. Weird since they have a prior post discussing FIRST where people talk about a GP. Oh well. Thank you for contacting me here.

ddahlgren

I left this message at the Corvette forum.. and will leave it at another Corvette board as well to see if we can get over 6 as 75 bucks is significant..
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...post1572481116

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

OK, 17".

This would work fine with my 388" LT1, should give me a 4900 RPM torque peak and let me stretch it to 6500-6800 with a little porting. And now I see they sell an LT1 pattern manifold. Good.

Judging by the port length and cross section, it's tuned for a 4850 RPM torque peak on a small block 350. In other words, dont think you can just bolt this in place and go without at least exhaust and a larger camshaft or you will be leaving power on the table. Both the port length and cross section match at that RPM. Figure in 1500 RPM more to peak HP, maybe a little on the short side because of the runner length, and you get the idea. This wont drive like a stock tuned port at that RPM, since it has an almost 1500 RPM higher tuned torque peak compared to stock, but can make more midrange torque than your typical carb manifold in the absence of the tuned effect. It will help with those people with traction problems though if they decided to use the intake at it's tuned RPM range.

To keep the tuned effect on a larger engine, it would require porting.
If a stock FIRST is 1.75" ID:

A 383 requires 1.83" ID runners.
A 396 requires 1.862" ID runners.
A 406 requires 1.885" runners.
A 427 require 1.935" runners.
A 454 requires 1.995" runners.

All assuming a 4850 RPM tuned torque peak.

I'm afraid the only way to lower it back down to TPI territory would be to lengthen the runners, since this 17" length pretty much fixes the tuned RPM based on port length. I think this would out perform the Stealthram if the engine is setup right, and should be capable of more torque.

I want one for an LT1. That has become my preference for TPI based builds (as long as the opti is gone). I may take another for a SBC if we get the price down enough. Curious as to the dimensions and height of the manifold, if anyone knows?

Judging from the pics, I wouldn't expect this to be portable enough to fit anything larger than a 406, MAYBE a 427, unless the torque peak (length) is lowered/lengthened.

I saw the torque comparison listed on their website, and the manifold peaked at 4000RPM for torque...but most of them also did at that range. I didn't see cam specs, but would be willing to bet that they were conservative in their cam selection (miniram didn't break 400HP). They still hit 460 ft/lbs at 4000 though. I notice that horsepower continued to climb until about 5000 though, right around the manifold's peak torque RPM and oddly enough near the stock cam's redline. It did pretty well.

Don't confuse 'tuned' RPM with what it's capable of making. This intake can make impressive torque since it lacks the flow restrictions of a stock tuned port and still has considerable runner length. It just requires 4850 RPM and enough cam to become 'tuned'...but those who know tuned ports know that well under that tuned RPM they still make gobs of torque. If it's undercammed, it will still make good torque, but fall off before the engine can benefit from the intake tuning. (think 305 TPI and the peanut cam) If at 4000 RPM it made 460 ft/lbs and it hadn't reached it's peak port velocity, I wonder what the same engine would make with a larger cam, exhaust, and better heads, or a stroker...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

When I had my First intake manifold on the bench I was looking it over and seeing what could be done with it, it would be no problem at all for just the intake manifold to be opened to 2.00" at the runner entrance. I opened mine up to 1.85" with minimal work as I was trying to get the runner taper the way I wanted it.

I think on the manifold the inlet runner size is larger than 1.75", maybe 1.80" or so as cast. Also the exit to the head can be opened up to a Felpro 1206 head gasket. The question would be how much the First runners can be opened up? I have seen the runners and had them in my hands but did not measure them. If my memory serves me correctly they are relatively thick.

They runners can be welded and siamesed to adjust the runner length as need be for the combination. There is a ton of potential available with the First.

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

I agree. It's kind of like the manifold I'm doing now with SLPs. Those, the Accels and SLP's are the only ones where you have the freedom to adjust runner length. Unfortunately, the first is so short compared to stock TPI's that shortening the runners will do nothing but raise the peak torque RPM even more, and throw the ideal CSA and port length out of whack.

I wouldn't be suprised if the casting is not a true 1.75" diameter, but I'm using that as the baseline. I figure no more than 1.8" by the time the casting is clean and ready to get cross buffed.

I remember hearing 2" is the max, but that really depends on the OD of the runners. I figure the OD -.100" would be as thin as I'd feel comfortable going with them, I'd feel better at .150" thickness. So if it's a 2.3" OD, I would figure 2" would be the max, so on and so forth. Of course, at that size, it's careful porting, or better yet, extrude hone. The difference in 1.75" and 1.8" is less than 200 RPM of the peak torque RPM when compared to runner length, so I imagine the effect would be minimal. The ideal CSA and length to make a tuned intake dont need to be exact, just close to a certain degree. I dont know how big that grey area is, but I know 200 is in it. I am going to guess and say 300 RPM before the mismatch starts showing in weaker wave tuning in the intake. This is based on the 350 TPI and variances in different math formulas for runner length and CSA.

I'm curious what the minimum CSA of those runners are. That's where it counts.

Ultimately, the question is yes, how much can they be opened up? The first will support a big engine, but how much the runners can be opened up will determine how big of an engine it can support while keeping the tuned effect. The larger the engine, the more air it takes as a higher RPM. I'd like to have a first with another 3" of runner length, but with those size tubes, that would be hard to do. It would lower the tuning range considerably though.

I managed 1.65" in my old set of SLP runners, while being able to remove the casting bumps on the inside of the tubes. That's tight, but should give a better idea as to what the first can do.

I can't help but love this stuff. When you finally get a grasp of wave dynamics and intake tuning, it takes understanding the TPI, and what it needs for modification, to a whole new level

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Length is one of the keys but also the velocity of the air. I think you want something around 260fps on average for good cylinder filling. You can very that some. Another factor is how much cfm your heads flow. Ideally you don't want the intake system choking the heads.

One of the members has EA Pro and calculated the CSA and runner length I needed for my setup and that is what I used when porting mine. I have since bought Larry Meaux's PipeMax program as a guideline.

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

I think thats where the variance in the different formulas come from. The formula for ideal CSA basically calculates that. I've seen formulas that both do and dont, and the ones that do usually are more reliable, from what I've seen and what I've built. I'm always open to see if there is a more accurate one out there, if you know your formula, send it my way I'd love to take a look!

When building a tuned port I try to use cfm as a judgement of efficiency of the intake rather than 'it's crap or not' since it's a different ballgame than a HP engine. Most builders dont seem to understand that you cannot treat a tuned port as any other intake and just start 'maxigrinding'. To a point, a tuned port has to be restrictive in order to get the needed velocity, which is why the runners are usually a little small. However, there's nothing saying it can't be efficient for it's size... which is where I use cfm as a judgement of efficiency. With the stock TPI base, it's hard to get cfm numbers through that and run up with some of the better heads out there and stay in spec due to the port entry angle problem. Then again, most tuned ports don't need 300cfm heads either, since they don't rev high enough to need that much air.

To be honest, I'm still on the fence about required head cfm vs port velocity. This is where theories tend to complicate things. Traditionally, it doesn't hurt to have a 300cfm head if you have an appropriately sized intake runner without being overly large, even if the engine doesnt need 300 cfm. It promotes better cylinder filling, which improves torque. I suppose the best way to get by that is on a case by case basis. Does a tuned port of XXX size need 300 cfm of air? In a torque engine, where do you draw the line between relying strictly on intake tuning vs maximizing cylinder fill (and ultimately intake flow capability and length)via the cylinder heads? Better yet, what is the needed cfm for the engine at it's power peak? Add a safety margin to that and compare that number to intake manifold flow. This way, the engine retains it's intake tuning while not pressuring the owner to go with too much CSA which could hurt more than help. The only problem I see here would be since the engine can't see the max cfm the heads can support, it potentially throws the rules that apply to I/E flow ratio out the window, which can hurt a little because it takes away a little space the builder has in how the engine behaves between peak TQ and peak HP.

Back to the first, I'm curious if anyone has ever or is considering doing a build with tuned length headers tailored to their intake? Most people seem to ignore exhaust tuning and spend more time on the intake, while ignoring the potential that is in the primary length and collector length.

I would say that the ideal situation would be a very efficient, high flow head, with an intake that can support every bit of what the heads can flow at a lift that compliments the cam...while having an intake that retains it's tuned characteristics...while bolted to a set of headers tuned to operate at the same RPM range. I would really like to do this, just dont have the $$$ for the digital flowbench yet.

ddahlgren

dhirocz wrote:
"Back to the first, I'm curious if anyone has ever or is considering doing a build with tuned length headers tailored to their intake? Most people seem to ignore exhaust tuning and spend more time on the intake, while ignoring the potential that is in the primary length and collector length."

I have a 91 C4 with an L98 and it makes me crazy that all the header companies offer 26 inch and shorter for the car and most of those are 1 3/4. I would love to try a set of 1 5/8 and 30-32 long.

My goal is to have a torque curve that comes in early and peaks around 4000 and HP peak around 5500. I am using the GM Vortec aluminum heads ZZ4 cam with 1.6 intake and 1.5 EXH rockers. the intake has to date been the tough part of the build and hoping this is the solution.

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

Most header companies ignore engine tuning and concentrate on packaging the headers to fit the car and making sure they flow. By design they are superior to the manifolds regardless, so they will end up giving more power and torque than the engine would have been capable of making without them anyway. What I need is a rediculously long header, with a 51" 1 3/4" primary and 18" long collectors for them to be 'tuned'

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"concentrate on packaging the headers to fit the car and making sure they flow"

That is one of the problems isn't it? You can make a great set of headers that work great on and engine dyno but they will not fit in the car. The compromises that have to be made with the radii of the tubing to clear the components in the car such as the frame, starter and steering along with ground clearance means compromises have to be made. With heads the exhaust ports and bolts are not all in the same place. Some are higher or lower than others.

Back to the First intake system, it has enough material to make it do what you want. For most it will do quite well out of the box.

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I agree. I'd like to see if I could possibly lengthen it to lower the tuning RPM though.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I'd like to see if I could possibly lengthen it to lower the tuning RPM though."

You can. That is what one needs to do is customize for their situation.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Ok, with dhirocz throwing his hat in for one (maybe two) we are up to 6 units. I will call FIRST this week to get discount info and post back here. From last years GP, looks like people then individually placed order with FIRST and mentioned this site to get discount.

Wow, lots of good info here on intake sizing. From what I've read concerning BadSS and 1989GTATransAm experiences with FIRST, the unit tops out around 5,600-5,800 rpm. It seems a cam like Comp Cam XFI 268 works really well on 350 for max power and driveability. The cam maxes out around 5,800rpm which would go well with 4,850rpm peak torque.

I've been thinking about airflow match ups between intake, heads and engine. I know that FIRST flows 300cfm stock and smaller, efficient heads are key to making torque with great throttle response. I keep going back to AFR 180 street head since it flows 260 at 0.5" lift. Not sure why they don't post flow figures at 0.6"? The 180's have a great exhaust/intake ratio at 80%. I think that head with FIRST on a 350 would make a mean street machine. I'm trying to figure out what cfm the 350 engine would require to see if heads would be limiting factor.

I read article of a Comp Cam higher up discussing cam selection tips. He stated that for high efficiency heads with e/i ratio around 80%, you want the cam intake and exhaust durations to be the same. XFI 268 is 218/224 at 0.5". I'm thinking about getting a custom grind like 1989GTA did from Mike Jones.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes in that situation a single pattern camshaft is good. Mike knows what he is doing no question about that. He grinds his own lobes so he can make anything and is not stuck with what is in the back of the Comp Cam book.

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

Keep in mind, just because the intake is tuned at 4850 doesnt mean it will peak torque at 4850. That's just it's capability, thats when you get the tuned effect which gives more cylinder fill, just like a regular tuned port. You need and engine with breathing ability (cam, exhaust, etc) to make it up that high.

Look at the graphs posted on first's site. In that case, the engine only peaked TQ at 4000 RPM. They were testing different intakes on the same engine. Look at the low numbers for the miniram. It didn't even break 4000 RPM. I'm fairly certain it was a stock or near stock cam. Makes you wonder what it could put out if the rest of the engine was up to par with the intake, doesn't it? I'm really curious what parts that engine had been equipped with.

Bottom line, even not built to operate under tuned conditions, this intake, with it's breathing capability and long runners, can still make some damn good torque.

Why not stretch the powerband up some, to maybe 6000-6200?

Blueyerocz

id definitely like to sign up for this. count me in.

bobross60

I am Interested, Dont Need EGR, Bolting Up To AFR 195 Eliminators

spade

iTrader: (3)

very interested.... but i need the vortec base.... 100%

ddahlgren

I need the vortec base as well..

spade

iTrader: (3)

I'm gonna post this on my local forum

spade

iTrader: (3)

any update?!?!

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

I spoke with Ken at First today. He is willing to offer the following generous discounts. Shipping is not included in below prices.
-$875 for intake if paying by check
-$900 for intake if paying by credit card or pay pal
-$125 for painting intake

-if we can order 10 or more units, Ken will offer an additional $25 discount so it would be $850 by check and $875 by credit card/pay pal. I count 9 orders now and 10 if dhirocz orders two. Let's see if we can get some more people interested in the next few days!

To receive discount you must place order by January 15th. You can either call or email Ken to place order and if you have any questions. Please provide Ken with as much information as you can (year, make, model, egr?). Definetly let Ken know if it is for a corvette since some extra machining is required. Please also be specific with what type of cylinder heads and bolt pattern you will be using intake on (standard 23 degree, LT1, Vortec). It may take a few weeks for you to get unit after placing order. Ken can give you better idea of timing when you place order. Stock 3rdgen egr valves won't work. You will need to by early 80's truck style egr that will attach to side of unit.


Lastly, don't forget to mention Thirdgen.org Group Purchase when ordering!

Rickin Phoenix

Yahoo, I'll be buying mine on Monday as soon as I can get a hold of FIRST, thanks for getting this rolling BlackDog

Slowridr

iTrader: (1)

Can the FIRST system not fit under a GTA hood without mounting the throttle body on the side of the plenum?

I may be interested but Ive got to know its a bolt on with no surprises.

Just want to bolt it onto a stock L98.

What about reprograming. I assume one would need a new chip burned right?

What else would be needed.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

slowridr, it should fit under GTA hood as FIRST unit is about 1/4" shorter than stock intake. I believe issue with throttle body was on corvette C4 hoods which FIRST has resolved. I came across some pictures on here before showing FIRST under GTA hood but cannot find them. You could also call or email Ken at FIRST. He would definitely know.

From what I've read, intake should make an extra 15hp on stock engine. Probably some more if you had headers and exhaust. Reprogramming would not be necessary but would help to squeeze out some extra hp.

FIRST uses side mounted EGR whereas stock used one mounted underneath plenum. You will have to buy early 80's style egr that mounts to side of FIRST. I think that is the only item you need to buy separately.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I saw where one was mounted in a Corvette. I think they have less clearance than the Firebird.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

I spoke with FIRST and so far only one person has ordered (thanks Rick!). I am ordering my unit today. Perfect way to start out the new year!

spade

iTrader: (3)

I'm ordering mine sometime tis week.......

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

wish we could get the same 825$ price as the last GP on these im still doin some reading up on this setup vs the SR for me project....but im very interested!

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

I need to wait until the 18th now to make my order. I had to make an emergency trip to kansas and spent well over $1000 to do so...

jamieschott

iTrader: (2)

I have this installed in a 92 RS with the stock hood and installed NEW ES poly engine mounts. i had to cut some of the center brace of the hood. Was no big deal and has not affected the structure of the hood at all. However I will be purchasing a new SS hood soon. I did have to modify the throttle cable as the stock cable end would not hook up to the throttle shaft of the FIRST intake. Was no big deal once i found the right throttle cable adapter to use. It was an edelbrock adapter, I dont remember the part number though.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Spoke with Ken at First. He has enough orders in for 6 unit discount ($875 by check). If he gets over ten unit order, Ken will refund $25 for discount mentioned above ($850 by check). I apologize if there was any confusion.

dhirocz, hope everything works out ok for you.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Spoke with First today. Only two people have placed orders so far. They are still willing to give discount if you contact them soon. $875 for the best flowing TPI unit! Comparable parts from TPIS cost $1,180 and won't flow as well.

oscarfromla

iTrader: (9)

I've done my research, and I think I'm ready to pull the trigger if this deal is still in place. I normally wait around until I find the parts I want/need used but this might be a "first" for me. I'll try to contact F.I.R.S.T. on Monday.

I have a stock L98 now but I have fast burn heads, LT4 hot cam awaiting install and I'm going to get 1.6 RR's and 1.75 inch headers. Any thoughts.

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Did you call them? Sounds like it will be a strong build. Fast burn heads flow really well. I can't recall but I think that with LT4 hotcam you will need to tune computer. Advisable anyways to get max power. Should be a torque monster.

I hear you. I won't have full engine build for a while but this intake will still help my stock engine now. Can't wait to receive it.

spade

iTrader: (3)

I placed my order....... Now I'm just waiting for it to come in......... So excited!

spade

iTrader: (3)

Has anyone received their system yet?

dhirocz

iTrader: (2)

Is this still going on? I'm expecting my refund back soon and want to get my hands on mine...

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

I believe FIRST would still be open to offering group discount. Give them a call, they are easy to deal with.

Spade, when I spoke with FIRST last Monday they mentioned that RickinPhoenix's unit was shipped and mine was soon to be. I expect my unit this week. You probably will have another week or two. Almost worst than Christmas as a kid huh?

Pwnage1337

is this deal still available?

spade

iTrader: (3)

Yea deal is still on I just spoke to Ken.......



And yes black dog its far worse than Xmas.....
Mine is bring shipped out Thursday I should get it early next week!


Woohoo!

Blackdog36

iTrader: (3)

Received intake earlier this week. Unit looks great, no major casting marks. I'll be polishing it up and then installing once it gets warm out. Kudos to Ken for offering us a great product and a generous discount