Atilla the Fun

I asked five7kid, and he thought there might be some interest. I have a set of each under my porting bench, awaiting the treatment. If you're interested, even if you don't yet have a spare set, let me hear from you, please.

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

Would be interested if the price is right (all things are that way lol).

I'm sure you could do 317's 243's etc? How about l92 since thats what i'm putting on the 370

Atilla the Fun

Just want to know if anyone wants to learn the right way to port these, I want to sell them, but I can't sell both sets yet, so whichever set, I'd be willing to do a how to thread about, if anyone wants me to. I'll sell either set unported, right now, for $200 plus shipping, or ported and polished for $320/pr. plus shipping
I can do other heads if you want to ship them to me, then also pay for my labor and the return shipping. I charge $120 per pair for my porting and polishing.
So, if you want to see how to port LSx heads, type something.

nobreaks254

You have a flow bench? Do you have any numbers from a 241 head? I would be very interested in a write up on porting. I ported my own 799 heads.

Atilla the Fun

I did have a SuperFlow 1020 with every option. 799s are like 243s, not 241s. I don't recommend anyone try doing 243s themselves, 99% of what I tried on them made them worse. You have to go awfully far on them to find big improvements.
I do have 241s, and I do have stock flow results for them.

nobreaks254

I know 799's are like 243's. I was just wondering if you had any ported flow numbers for your 241's, I know what mine flowed stock. I messed with afew ports on my 241's and then ported my 799's. I was only able to gain about 25 cfm at .500/.600 lift. But I didnt lose any low/mid lift, but didnt gain much either.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I might be interested in a set for a '02 5.3 tahoe engine I have.
I'd want to see some previous work/ flow #'s 1st.

$120 for porting is cheap, considering what it cost to have a set of lt1 heads sent to LE or Ai for porting/polishing/etc....

*these would be going on the engine just for a little better resale value* I don't think its worth my time to swap to a 5.3 vs the 383 lt1 I have now.

Atilla the Fun

These heads are so much more cleanly shaped to start with, compared to even the Vortec SBC heads, that at first glance, you don't see much to do. But then you spend some time on TEA's website, and you wonder how they get such drastic improvements. their gains on the 5.3 heads far surpass their gains on the 241 heads, and therein lies a huge clue: The 5.3 heads have material someplace that the 241s don't, and it needs to be left in there.
AFR also notes that when they were doing their original 205 cc LSx heads, they had to redo the entire casting because the LS1 heads were missing some much-needed material.
By the time you buy 5.3 heads, have them prepped for bigger valves, and buy the bigger valves, you're already in to the same money as buying new 243/799 heads. But properly ported, the 5.3 heads will out-flow the stock 243/799s.
So, which matters more, the flow, or the chambers? The correct answer depends on the rest of your combo. If you're over 400 cubic inches, you need the flow.
What about a smaller combo, but at higher elevation? If you don't go road tripping to sea level in it, then compression trumps all, so again, the 5.3 heads win.

Atilla the Fun

$120 is actual cost, I do the porting as a not-for-profit, so I don't goof my tax situation. I do it by hand, not using a costly CNC set-up, but I'm one of the guys who creates the ports that CNC replicates. CNC doesn't create good ports to start with, it only replicates good ports created by the hands of those who have the gift.
I'm not providing flow numbers for free. TEA and them can because of their huge profit margin, and because they don't show you how they got the numbers. I do it on Vortecs because they're old news. But I can't give away the how to and the numbers both for free. I'm not stupid. You buy the heads, you get to see the how-to. If you then want do that then get them flowed, fine.
But If you want to do that, I'll have to insist on a non-disclosure, up front. Otherwise, I couldn't show the how-to. If someone does violate a non-disclosure, I'm an instant millionaire.
I don't want to be an ***, I want to help everyone. But I understand how the world works, too.

$750 L98

I would certainly be interested in seeing a "how to" on the porting!

Atilla the Fun

That makes 2 people so far.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

$120 is dirt cheap non profit or not. Sorry buy with out flow #'s to know what kinda work someone is doinng is like buying a engine with out inspecting it 1st. Just taking word its a "fresh or new" engine.

I'm not saying you dont do good work but as you said "I understand how the world works" Most people don't know without knoing some facts. Your not "GIVING" any secretes away or How to with providing people with flow #'s to back up your good work"

Hand porting is an art work. Not like most will pick up $100's of dollars for good carbines , rollock disks etc and make a million off just your flow #'s if you know what I mean.

Im just looking to slap a nice cam and ported heads on this and relist it fs. I'll send em off to my buddys perf. shop in ohio where I'll at least get a flow sheet and know his work well. (hes competed in every Popular hot rod "ENGINE MASTERS CHALLENGE" ) He has a DTS engine dyno to test his work on etc.)

Again don't take any of this the wrong way. I'm not looking to start porting heads as a living. Ive done my share of my own and dont have the time to mess with that **** anymore. Im sure you do good work or you woouldn't make a post asking for interested people.

Atilla the Fun

I was selling port jobs before anyone ever heard of a flow bench, with no trouble. I still do a set a week. If you knew my real name, you'd recognize it. But I'm sick of recognition. So not even my friends on here know it, I tell them something else. Becoming a recluse has cost me a lot, but I don't regret it. And I have been burned before giving away too much info.
If I was porting for profit, I'd send you a non-disclosure, and if you signed it, then I'd PM you the flow numbers. But helping forum members means more to me than making a sale, no matter how much I need the money. Because have stage 4 cancer.
I don't consider you an enemy, but I think you're gonna view me that way. Still, I've helped over 1,000 people on TGO, so I don't care that I've made a dozen enemies.
Since I'm holding all the cards that matter most to me, I'm free to hold them or play them as I see fit.
Sorry you haven't swayed me. Peace.

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

there's a possibility i may be interested. i've got 2 sets of LS1 heads and a set of 5.3 heads. car's still got some time before its even close to running.

Atilla the Fun

cool. I'll count that as a third. It seems I've got a probable buyer for my 241s in unported condition, so I'll probably go ahead and port / polish the 5.3 heads.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

You have the right to do as you wish. Im not trying to sway you nor do I consider you an enemy. Ive actually rear alot of your stuff and your a very intelligent poster. Im just saying most people don't buy "ported heads" not knowing what they flow , etc..

I guess $120 is a good gamble if you do a Good port job its all worth it in the end.
Hell Im sure some who can't port there own would pay that for a "gasket match job.

Good luck. Look forward to seeing some pic's of your work.

Atilla the Fun

Okay, I cleaned up the 5.3 heads today, mostly just using solvent and a small wooden handled wire brush. I'll get pics. But you don't waste polishing rolls cleaning out carbon deposits. Especially in the intake ports.
TPI383, you're only partly correct. Let's be accurate and word it this way: These days most people don't buy high-dollar port jobs from unknown porters without flow numbers."
I'm not asking much, and I'm not unknown. Thus, I still do a pair every week on the strength of my reputation. Numbers are great, but as all us old timers will tell you, huge numbers don't always equal a responsive engine, and what the engine does in the car must always trump the numbers in the shop. Unless you figured out how to race flow benches. If so, please, at least claim to have done so.

$750 L98

If you do get a write up going I may follow along and do a little work on mine each night little by little. I too am not concerned with huge numbers, but don't want to slap the heads back on untouched. I think I can massage them gently and do a decent to good job, I've yet to mess up anything I take a dremel too, and none of my guns have blown up in my face!

I do need to mill mine though, I don't think I can do that at home LOL

Atilla the Fun

I don't think you can do with a Dremel, anything like what I do with the proper tools. My porting thread in the swap stickies shows and tells what I use. But yes, I'm about to post some "before" pics of the 5.3 heads, so I can start grinding on them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'll bite. I'll see the how too. If you dont have flow numbers do you have an estimated performance gain that can be achieved on an LS1?

Say bolt ons only for now, stock headed LS1 will lay down 340whp. Some abit more, some less. If I was to put the mild port/polish heads on, do you have an estimate of what i could get out of them? 20-30whp gain?

What about mild cam? Figure most cam swaps are in the 400whp range on a stock head ls1. What kinda gains then?

Atilla the Fun

I'm not close to showing how to get the big numbers TEA advertises. I'm starting with showing what is worth doing to fix GM's imperfections, without much risk of hurting anything. Maybe later I'll show stage 2, but not yet. Stage one should net you at least 15 crankshaft horses with an otherwise pure stock engine, except with a good muffler. With a real street cam, like the TR220, and headers with really good mufflers, and at least an LS6 intake, you can expect double that, which is about 30 crankshaft horses, so stage 1 is worth doing. My stage 1 is stock size valves, in all cases, whatever the heads.
So, here are the pics of stock 5.3 heads. They're not all that well cleaned, but they're clean enough, barely.

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NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

did you by any chance spend some time in a trade school in tx?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

The best i could get the 317s i have done which flowed 250 stock was about 270, they are basically a 243 with a larger chamber.

Atilla the Fun

Judson Massengill is above average, no doubt, but like most of Mondello's students, most of JM's students are trying to acquire a learned skill. A few of us, like Mondello, Massengill, Mamo, (I wonder why they all start with M?) and myself all have a natural knack for it.
With intelligence, persistence, patience, monetary resources, and the best equipment, you can end up with better results than the guys who can inherently feel what to do.
But if you're one of them, you're gonna go through an awful lot of virgin heads to accomplish what we do on our first try.
I'm not trying to turn anyone away from porting, you have to try it or you'll never know.
So far, there isn't a head on earth that can't be improved upon, unless it's already been in the hands of someone with years of good porting behind them. Massengill's best 416 isn't gonna perform like an untouched 799, but if you can't start with the best, you can improve what you have.
Why pay one of those M guys a small fortune when I can show you 90% of what you'd get from them that you would actually use on your first pair of heads?

Atilla the Fun

Look at page 25 of the Feb. 2010 issue of Car Craft magazine. There you see stock 317s doing 252 at 0.500", and 260 at 0.575", but the very next column shows that with good porting, those same heads were improved to 288 at 0.500" and 303 at 0.575".
If you followed my thread on porting SBC heads, I've shown at least one solid example of what every newb grinds away but shouldn't.
Conventional wisdom or sound reasoning or common sense don't apply to porting. What you think should help usually hurts. You've read how easy it is for newbs to actually make heads worse.
So I thought I'd show you what is worth doing, and if I don't grind somewhere, you'd do well to not grind there either.
Following my instructions for my stage 1 won't give you huge gains, but it will be cheap, it will get you some gains, and you won't make anything worse. What more can you expect from free instruction?

$750 L98

That is my pet peve, people who say "leave it to the professionals". Can't slap some one in the face much harder, you have to screw up at some point to learn what not to do, so just give people the advice they seek and let them do the rest.

People told me not to touch the swap, leave it to the pros. Well I ended up with the most botched product i've ever seen. Now I've fixed every mistake myself and did things that no one else has done for an LSx swap.

People told me not to modify my firearms (with good reason), but I know the basics and have had dirty, scarred hands since I was about 5 years old. They all work better than factory pieces and are 100% reliable now.

Point me in the right direction and I can achieve good/great results on the first try, but it seems too many people want to keep the knowledge "secret" and just refer you to the "pros".

Enough ranting from me, regardless of flow numbers/outcome, simple pictures and explenation of technique is a great foundation to build on. Like you said, once you get the feel of it, the workpiece sort of talks to you.

Atilla the Fun

I am NOT telling you to leave it to the pros. I'm showing you how to take the first steps, and I do hope to get the opportunity to show how to do more advanced port re-shaping.
My stage 1 isn't about creating a new design, it's about perfecting what you have.
And how can I give you port re-design before you master the art of perfecting what you have?

$750 L98

Oh no, my post wasn't directed at you, I'm thankful you are sharing the info. It's just normally it seems to go the other way, when I ask a question on the boards most of the time the answer is "just take it to a shop" lol

I hate that, that's why I'm following the thread, hopefully it will give me some insight and enough motoviation I feel confident I can port my own.

Atilla the Fun

I'm no motivator, I'm a lazy bum who lets the rain keep him from getting out of bed.
I'm glad there are shops I can take it to.
I try to stay current on EFI, but dyno tuning is something I'd rather just pull in and pay for.
Learning is great, but trying to master every aspect of cars, well, not for me. Let alone trying to also learn something dull like plant biology. No way. Bad enough being fluent in engine, trans, axle, suspension, wiring, aerodynamics, body and paint. That's quite enough for me.
If I could just have 1000 years with a bunch of LSx parts, a machine shop, a paved continent, and an endless supply of gas and tires, I'd spend the whole thousand years refining the perfect power combo. Mostly sideways at full throttle, but that's the whole point, right?
Really, it'd take that before I'd be bored enough to take an interest in plants. Or livestock. Cows might be less dull, because they respond when you tip them over in the middle of the night.

Atilla the Fun

It seems to me that anyone who pays that much to learn porting isn't about to give away for free what cost them so dearly. Maybe if one of them was a genuine Robin Hood, and independently wealthy...

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

hell i went to a trade school in houston for automotive and diesel theory. mostly in automotive and over the road trucks. been fixin forklifts for 22 years. go figure.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I'll get more accurate... "These days most people don't buy high-dollar port jobs from unknown porters without seeing PROVEN improvements." be it flow #'s before n after . Dyno numbers before/after. People want to "KNOW" what they are getting.

Like you said. Flow #'s arne't the tale tail sign of how heads will act in the real world application.

I'd much rather see what it does down on the DTS dyno for actually numbers. like my buddy did when he built all engines,ported heads, etc.. We've Put a ton off stuff on the dyno to check improvements. everything from 120hp imports to Blown Alky Hemi engines for know race teams.

anyways back to your topic. We can just agree we disagree on somethings.

Atilla the Fun

Since the only chassis dyno shop around here that isn't diesel only is known for grenading engines, we go by dragstrip imporovements. AFAIK there are only 2 active flow benches in the state, and one of them won't do any heads but their own. The other is over 150 miles from me, and is an old SF600 with poor repeatability and NO swirl checking or wet flow features.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

i hear ya, gotta pay to play.
good friend of mine graduated from SAM. he has some talent for grinding on heads. learned alot from Casey. and as result has built some awesome ls heads with stock valves just to name one and also built some c5rs when he was there. were in hi 390s low 400cfm iirc. too bad he now does it as hobby. makes more $ in medical field now. he did teach me the basics of ls heads. i have enough confidence to go into 243s and 799s now.

Atilla the Fun

very cool.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

This was all numbers from a local shop, and the port job by me was rushed. But i did it in exchange for some parts.

Atilla the Fun

The buyer backed out because shipping was $21 more than he anticipated. So, I still have the 241s after all. Dammit.