Supercharger cooling without an intercooler?
#1
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Supercharger cooling without an intercooler?
I'm running a vortech, and the thing gets hotter than hell. I don't really want to plumb an intercooler in the car.
I'm wondering about wather/alc/co2 injection, how the systems work, etc.
Anyone have any examples?
I did search, but didn't find anything.
-- Joe
I'm wondering about wather/alc/co2 injection, how the systems work, etc.
Anyone have any examples?
I did search, but didn't find anything.
-- Joe
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I've heard of Alcohol injection. It works pretty well. So does Water. It cools the combustion event more than the air, so you get kind of the same effect. You can run high hot boost and not have to worry about detonation. From what I understand you just inject down stream of the blower and let the air do the atomization. I know that our NA tow truck engine even benefited from water injection.
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Hi,
Thanks for the response.. I'm looking at either that, or like I said a small shot of N20..
Does anyone have any examples or kits I can reference? I'm not that educated on this matter, but I'd like to be.
-- Joe
Thanks for the response.. I'm looking at either that, or like I said a small shot of N20..
Does anyone have any examples or kits I can reference? I'm not that educated on this matter, but I'd like to be.
-- Joe
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NOS and Edelbrock both just made plate systems for the TPI. Some companies even make N20 systems that replace the stock TB. Check out Jegs.com or Summitracing.com. Hot Rod Chevy High Performance and other mags have advertisements for the stuff all the time too.
#5
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Hey,
Well I'd think a fogger in the plumbing would be better than a plate system. Wouldn't you want it as far away from the TB as possible?
-- Joe
Well I'd think a fogger in the plumbing would be better than a plate system. Wouldn't you want it as far away from the TB as possible?
-- Joe
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Car: 1984 LG4 Camaro
Engine: 350 Roller Motor
Transmission: Level 10 700R4
Axle/Gears: Strange 12 bolt 3.42
Water/Alcohol injection is the easiest way to cool down the intake air without going crazy.
Paxton used to include WI with its TPI kits way back when - it allowed more power without detonation than without it, which made the cars quicker. Paxton did get the power, but if you ran out of liquid, serious damage could result. Paxton has since included Boost Retard ignition from MSD, replacing the water injection.
A friend just put a Powerdyne 4.5 psi kit on his 1997 LT1 TA, and he is putting a water injection kit on the car (even at such a low boost level) as a fail safe against detonation and the hope of a few more hp. If it cools the air intake charge 60 degrees, it will add about 5% more power (on a 360hp car, that adds up to almost 20hp). The one thing I suggested is that when the car goes back to the shop to be tuned (Cartek in NJ installed the blower) in a week, it should be tuned without the WI for the simple reason that if the WI isn't working, major detonation damage will result. It will be added later so it will be an air charge cooler. Kind of a double insurance policy (not to mention the extra power) in my mind.
Supposedly a mixture of 60% water/40% denatured alcohol is the best ratio for cooling (from what I hear).
Paxton used to include WI with its TPI kits way back when - it allowed more power without detonation than without it, which made the cars quicker. Paxton did get the power, but if you ran out of liquid, serious damage could result. Paxton has since included Boost Retard ignition from MSD, replacing the water injection.
A friend just put a Powerdyne 4.5 psi kit on his 1997 LT1 TA, and he is putting a water injection kit on the car (even at such a low boost level) as a fail safe against detonation and the hope of a few more hp. If it cools the air intake charge 60 degrees, it will add about 5% more power (on a 360hp car, that adds up to almost 20hp). The one thing I suggested is that when the car goes back to the shop to be tuned (Cartek in NJ installed the blower) in a week, it should be tuned without the WI for the simple reason that if the WI isn't working, major detonation damage will result. It will be added later so it will be an air charge cooler. Kind of a double insurance policy (not to mention the extra power) in my mind.
Supposedly a mixture of 60% water/40% denatured alcohol is the best ratio for cooling (from what I hear).
#7
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?
I'd be curious what the paxton injection setup looked like.
-- Joe
I'd be curious what the paxton injection setup looked like.
-- Joe
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#8
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Try http://www.turbobuick.com . Those guys know a LOT about water injection.
#9
Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?
http://www.aquamist.co.uk
.
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Car: 86-FireBird
Engine: -MPFI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3:42
I really dont know much but just thinking...
Would a ram air hood work well with one???
Lots of cold fresh air comming in; unless you live in the desert.
But water injection sounds neat.
Would a ram air hood work well with one???
Lots of cold fresh air comming in; unless you live in the desert.
But water injection sounds neat.
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Car: 1988 GTA Black/Gray
Engine: Blown 355
Transmission: 700R4
Ram air isn't going to help. The heat is caused by the blower, packing the air.
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Car: 86 Cutlass
Engine: 350
Transmission: 200-4R
www.smcenterprises.com
TR guys like to run this kit. Costs about $350 which is a pretty good deal for what you get.
TR guys like to run this kit. Costs about $350 which is a pretty good deal for what you get.
#13
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Interesting.. I wonder what the dangers associated with it are..
Thanks!
Thanks!
#14
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Originally posted by anesthes
Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?
I'd be curious what the paxton injection setup looked like.
-- Joe
Interesting.. So who makes a water injection kit? And what do they roughly cost?
I'd be curious what the paxton injection setup looked like.
-- Joe
That's what I'm using and it does work!
#15
i have the paxton on my 305 tpi, and all the injection system is, is a hose into the winshield wiper fluid tank, then it runs down to a winshield wiper pump, and from there into a nozzle that sprays into the intake, the pumps power is off 1 IGN source and the Neg comes from a hobbs switch on one of the vacume nipples, and thats how it works, there is some smaller details with it like one way valves, and wut not, ask and ill send u more details, i even have all the instructions if u want part details
#16
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More details or scans of the directions would be great.
WRT to the conversation, water injection's primary advantage is not cooling. Do the math, it doesn't make sense. I worked it out when we were tinkering with water injection on my brothers car and found that at 8psi boost on his 302 he'd need 160lb/hour of water to cool the intake charge down 80*. We also found that up to about 30# per hour (more then most water injection units inject, we were able to do it fairly precisely because we were using one of the auxiliary channels of the haltech to trigger an actual injector starting at about 2psi boost) he saw no measureable increase in power (judged by track times).
The reason is that the primary way that water injection helps is as an anti-detonant, it's like running a much higher fuel octane (his car has about 8.6:1 compresson and aluminum heads, it doesn't see any timing retard or detonation which is why he didn't gain anything).
As far as I can tell, the alcohol actually lessens the effect. The only advantage to running alcohol is that it is a fuel if your fuel delivery is marginal, and it keeps the water from freezing in the winter.
WRT to the conversation, water injection's primary advantage is not cooling. Do the math, it doesn't make sense. I worked it out when we were tinkering with water injection on my brothers car and found that at 8psi boost on his 302 he'd need 160lb/hour of water to cool the intake charge down 80*. We also found that up to about 30# per hour (more then most water injection units inject, we were able to do it fairly precisely because we were using one of the auxiliary channels of the haltech to trigger an actual injector starting at about 2psi boost) he saw no measureable increase in power (judged by track times).
The reason is that the primary way that water injection helps is as an anti-detonant, it's like running a much higher fuel octane (his car has about 8.6:1 compresson and aluminum heads, it doesn't see any timing retard or detonation which is why he didn't gain anything).
As far as I can tell, the alcohol actually lessens the effect. The only advantage to running alcohol is that it is a fuel if your fuel delivery is marginal, and it keeps the water from freezing in the winter.
#17
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
Interesting.. So in your tests, it really didnt cool down the temp of the air. But how did it decrease detonation? Was the actual cyl temps lower?
The only. thing about spraying water that I find interesting is, what happens when you try to compress the mist. Wouldn't your c/r go up?
-- Joe
The only. thing about spraying water that I find interesting is, what happens when you try to compress the mist. Wouldn't your c/r go up?
-- Joe
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I have been thinking of either getting an old typhoon intercooler or fabricating some sort of intercooler for my paxton setup. I know that a company sells a good cold water injection setup: carol water injection. IT runs for about 3 bills. I have been thinking of using a 50 shot of nos, but i really want to say away from the giggle gas. I do not know where to find aftermarket intercoolers?
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Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, 355" LT1, LT1
Transmission: T5, Zf6, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, Dana44 3.45, 3.23
3 bills is a lot considering it may or may not make a difference.
And i'm not sure that NOS is a wonderful idea either. I was thinking about it, but how would you adjust for a/f ratio?? Youd have to plumb a wet system, or try to figure out how to increase fuel pressure with a dry system - which wouldnt work cuz you do that with the FMU for the supercharger, or at least I do.. so..???
-- Joe
And i'm not sure that NOS is a wonderful idea either. I was thinking about it, but how would you adjust for a/f ratio?? Youd have to plumb a wet system, or try to figure out how to increase fuel pressure with a dry system - which wouldnt work cuz you do that with the FMU for the supercharger, or at least I do.. so..???
-- Joe
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If your going to use nos, increase your fmu. You can either go to a dyno or make your own wide band. If you have the standard vortech fmu, you can purchase plates to increase or decreas the ratio of the fmu from 4/1 to 12/1. I got the kit and it cost 30 bucks.
#21
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Originally posted by anesthes
Interesting.. So in your tests, it really didnt cool down the temp of the air. But how did it decrease detonation? Was the actual cyl temps lower?
The only. thing about spraying water that I find interesting is, what happens when you try to compress the mist. Wouldn't your c/r go up?
Interesting.. So in your tests, it really didnt cool down the temp of the air. But how did it decrease detonation? Was the actual cyl temps lower?
The only. thing about spraying water that I find interesting is, what happens when you try to compress the mist. Wouldn't your c/r go up?
WRT our testing, water decreases detonation the same way that egr does, by not burning. In both cases you're dilluting the A/F mixture with something that does not burn which slows the burn and decreases the tendancy for the mixture to spontaniously ignite. The advantage of water is that it does have some cooling value and that it is a liquid so that you can inject much more of it without replacing the space that the A/F mixture normally will take up.
The reason that Alcohol doesn't really add to the effect over water is that your're basically adding something that has an octane rating of about 121, to dillute the A/F. It will still detonate, just not as easily where water will not at all. Second problem (for some people this is an advantage) is that alcohol is a fuel and your setup will have to be tuned differenty or it will go rich when you turn the injection on.
#22
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Originally posted by Raiden
I have been thinking of either getting an old typhoon intercooler or fabricating some sort of intercooler for my paxton setup.
I have been thinking of either getting an old typhoon intercooler or fabricating some sort of intercooler for my paxton setup.
#24
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depending on what you want...
Well, just about any serious turbo shop should be able to help you out... this guy is one of the first that I would try:
www.toohighpsi.com/Main/jimscoolers.htm
Well, just about any serious turbo shop should be able to help you out... this guy is one of the first that I would try:
www.toohighpsi.com/Main/jimscoolers.htm
#25
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Water doesnt squeeze. keep that in mind... its not necessarily GOOD for an engine. lots of times it will pit the pistons with pinholes. times have changed, and its getting more reliable, but adding water to an engines fuel supply is never a really rock solid good idea.
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Car: 1987 Camaro IROC Z-28
Engine: L98
Transmission: 700R4
I didn't know that isoprophyl alcohol was a fuel? if rubbing alcohol's octane rating is 121, what's the octane rating of methanol alcohol? I've never seen anyone use isoprophyl alcohol as a fuel before. only seen people burn methanol.
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Originally posted by 83 Crossfire TA
the only real problem with the sy/ty intercooler is that it is too small. It approaches being a restriction at the sy/ty's stock 280hp.
the only real problem with the sy/ty intercooler is that it is too small. It approaches being a restriction at the sy/ty's stock 280hp.
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