89JYturbo

I have been intrigued with the remote mount turbo system ever since I first seen one of STS's systems. At first I laughed, but then I got curious. What if it would actually work? It would be the easiest way to add a turbo to almost any car! I decided I had to try it. I had a used turbo laying around from my TT Iroc project, and my daily driver '89 Cavalier Z24 2.8/5spd was ready and waiting. The wheels started to turn, and I took a friday and saturday off to see if I could build a quick turbo system. Started friday at 8am, and was driving a turbocharged Cavalier by 6pm saturday. I could have finished friday evening if I had found the proper oil pump the first time (I found that a carter gasoline pump and an old 6.5 diesel fuel lift pump did not work). I will have more pics and details soon.

89JYturbo

Here are some specs on the system:
*89 Cavalier 2.8 5speed, 174K miles
*Garrett T3 turbo from a volvo or saab- .42comp, .48turbine A/R
*Turbo put in place of muffler (no muffler was used, as the turbo itself quites down the exhaust effectively)
*2" piping fornt to engine, no IC, but charge temps under heavy load never over 120°F on 80° day (according to data logging scan tool)
*Turbo lubed with engine oil, pressure line T'd off at sending unit
*Oil pumped back to engine into front valve cover via a SHURflo 8000 series oil pump (purchased from local farm supply store)
*Factory internal wastegate, 6psi boost
*Turbo XS RFL blow off valve (sounds great!- it will be put on my TT Iroc once I get it back together, but for now it will stay on the Cavvy)

Before I get nailed with comments about how stupid this type of system is, I know this system is far from ideal. Remote turbo systems have been cut up in every post I read about them, and there are some good reasons not to turbo your car this way. But, it is the easiest way possible, it provides more turbo whistle noise (because the turbo is so close to the tailpipe), and it does work. If you want an all out high performance type system, build it the right way with turbo headers and the turbo as close to the exhaust port as possible (the high velocity of the hot exhaust aids in kicking up the turbine speed) and use a good intercooler. But if you want a quick and simple turbo system, this would bve an option.

I'm anxious to see what you all think!

Lee7

so how much of an improvement?

bad_turbo

my friend did the same thing to his '98 chevy 1500. He loves it! It only makes about 5-6lbs of boost, but he gained 50-75 horses without having to do any other mods. Your Cavy looks great!

z_power

Hm, not trying to flame on you, but what's this poor turbo goin' to say whan a splash of cold water hits hot corpse?

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I would think that could get ugly. Nothing that a simple sheild of some sort couldn't prevent though.

I was watching the video that is floating around of the fourth gen Z with the STS kit yesterday. One thing that I noticed is how bad the lag was. The kid would step on it from a stop, it wouldn't leave any rubber, and then a second or two later the turbo would spool and the tires would break loose. Not exactly the easiest way to win a race. I don't doubt that this setup can make power, but what drawbacks are you encountering with it 89JY, if any?

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I have a spair 60/63 T3 I planed to do my 91S10 up with like this. Only diff is I pulled the Exh and mocked it up and plan to put it where the converter use to be.

Guido

How does the cavy feel? I imagine this setup DOES WORK as there has been documented success. It still looks funny. LOL

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Looks can be deceiving..

Mmmmm, that t3 would be better sooted on our 2003 cavvy. to bad it would Prob void the warrenty. lol

askulte

Its cool to see folks trying things out, rather than just talking about it. I've been considering something similar for my Durango, mounting the turbo right before the cat at the Y-pipe junction, and couldn't find a sump pump for the oil. Thanks for figuring it out!

I checked the specs on the Shurflo 8000, and it lists a max fluid temp of 170 deg F. I'm sure the oil will cool down a little, but should be above that once you reach operating temp. Please let us know how the pump lasts, as I'm sure theres some safety factor in there.

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=145

87F383

More Pics! I might do this to my SVX for fun!

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I have to admit that I played with the idea of doing the same with my K1500 blazer (hell, it's not like it really needs the power all the time, just every once in a while when it's really loaded down, so who cares how well it spools, this is not about ultimate performance), just put it next to the frame rail where the big pellet cat goes, but the bizare fact is that there is actually more room under the hood for it then under the floorpan…

89JYturbo

I plan to take it to the track friday (Maple Grove has 'grudge racing' friday niights and it is 5 minutes from my house!). My NA best was very low 16s- hope to be in the 14s!

The turbo does lag, but if launched properly, even a lowly cavalier is all but ready to spin the tires thru first gear (even without any boost). I get about 2psi boost in first gear maxed out, but if I flat shift, I almost instantly have full boost in second gear. If you keep your foot in it (shift very fast) it doesn't ever go under 5psi boost, even right after a shift. The blow off valve helps keep the turbo spooled if you lift your right foot to shift. If I burry the throttle at around 1000rpm in second, the turbo slowly starts to spool (you can hear it), and at around 3000rpm, it just jumps from 0 to 6psi almost instantly- fast and hard enough to spin the tires (sometimes ). Oh yeah and you could also ask the late model celica and the two VW Jetta 1.8Ts how the cavalier runs- lets just say they were put in their proper place!

For those worried about splash water, it has been driven for a month rain or shine. No problems at all. The turbo is not directly behind the tires, so it only gets a little splash now and then. That said, it would certainly be a good idea to install a splash shield to make sure there are no long term effects.

The pump I am using for scavenge duty has higher temp diaphragm and valves, and is capable of 180°F fluid temps (PN 8000-643-236). I'm sure this is being exceeded when pushed hard, but I measured the turbo oil outlet hose the other day after a hard drive, and the hose was 155°F (according to my infared thermometer). Still, the oil temps propably do exceed the engineered limits of the pump occasionally. But at least with the turbo this far back heat is lower.

Here is a pic of the engine compartment:
Notice the cartech fmu in the upper right corner, and the Tubo XS BOV tht lets all the imports know what they are up against!

89JYturbo

As a side note, that oil pump was later mounted in the trunk of the car, as the saleman that I purchased the pump from said they are not reliable if they get wet. Since this is my daily driver, it cannot stay at home in foul weather, so I moved it since these pictures were taken.

Xceleratemaro

thats insane! man///im speechless probroly becouse i have a 92 cav and i want to do it! how much would you sell that set up for?

89JYturbo

I just got it installed! I'm not ready to sell it yet, but maybe for the right price?!

BBSDesigns

Hi 89YJturbo,

I always asked myself since I saw the first remote turbo; How is the turbo going to look like after a year of use? I suggest that you put antiseize in all the bolts that hold the turbo together. Its probably nothing, but I guess that all those bolts are going to be freezed to the housings with all the water and dirt they are going to catch back there after prolonged use.

The truth is that putting the turbo back where the muffler is, for cars with insufficient space under the hood is fantastic. We all know that is not the best place for performance, but it works.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, I've been thinking about that and had a couple of solutions. You could snag a PS cooler out of some cars (some just have a loop of hardline, but others, like some of the ford tauruses have an actual cooler mounted below the radiator) and plumb it inline to make sure whatever gets back there is actually cool, and if that idea doesn't excite you then I bet that if you used either a copper or aluminum line it would work almost as well as an actual cooler as long as it gets nowhere near the exhaust. Or you could just install a real oil cooler, but you shouldn't need the volume, somethign like a tranny cooler would be fine.

87F383

I have absolutly zero knowledge when it comes to turbo sizing and the folowing question is indirectly related to the topic?

What turbo would I use for a remote mount turbo for a 3.3L H6?
It would need to be highly effcient at 8-10 psi (high compression).

I would assume it would be a smaller one than you would normally mount in the engine bay to reduce lag somewhat?

Forgive the not exactly 3rd gen question...

askulte

87F383 - Honestly, who cares! Since the rear mounted turbos are more of a ghetto-rig (no offense to anyone, they can be well done, but not ideal in the engineering design sense), a turbo in the ballpark will be just fine. Going for the extra 1% in efficiency may not even be noticed, especially if you're not doing custom fuel/timing maps, etc. Pick a turbo smaller than usual, since you'll have much less exhaust heat to drive the turbo back there. Just about any factory 4/6 cyl turbo would work for your purposes... Talon, Omni, etc...

87F383

I care about this style set up for that particular car because there is zero room under/above/around that flat 6 for anything with all the ABS/AWD equipment under the hood. I on the other hand have stock muffler big enough for a freightliner so remote mounting the turbo is a very viable option for me even if it is "far from ideal".

85berlinetta2.8

so lemme get this right, you got a turbo at the end of your exhaust, and piped and intake tube all the way to the front?

thats pretty cool...
what were your track times?

is there any way you could have placed the turbo closer to the front? like behind the wheel well plastic and pipe the exhaust out the side?

great work!

how does it drive?

89JYturbo

Just got back from the track. I ran at Maple Grove's friday night grudge match (nice name for a test'n'tune). I was pretty happy with the results:

Pass 1- 14.956@93.57, 2.416 60ft
Pass 2- 14.794@94.19, 2.333 60ft

I am curious what I could run if I could get a respectable 60ft time- I suspect mid-low 14s. I never drag raced FWD before, and it is very hard to launch. I am not very good with RWD, and even worse with FWD! Even still, it should be capable of surprising a lot of people. Remember, this is a daily driver with 174k, and a turbo system built in approx 24hrs. I am tempted to install those 24# SVO injectors I have and turn the boost to maybe 10 or 12PSI. I really want the high 13s to show my ford buddies that an old cavalier can put the hurt on a 5.0!

Oh yes, and what about my T4 conversion kit I bought off eBay- I could convert the turbo to a hybrid T3/T4. That should help it run better as well.

85berlinetta2.8

why not run an intercooler into the bumper and spray the intercooler with water the whole way down? or is that not a good idea

onebadwagon

i have a good idea, just get rid of your heat and a/c, and make make a new metal heaterbox, and just put the turbo behind the dash!!!




adam

85berlinetta2.8

im pretty sure the gmhpm has a 1200hp stock looking 4th gen with that done

SLP-GTA

iTrader: (1)

Over second reduction, what was your MPH before the turbo?

Also what about a seperate oil tank, mount both tank and pump in the trunk with a PS cooler, that would be a slick idea, no.

mefreema

I have thought about using engine vacume to return oil from a remote turbo setup but cant figure out how to seperate it and return it to the pan once it returns to the motor. I guess you could just send it down the intake if it were a 2 stroke like my dirt bike!

stevedave454

a few price questions...

how much was the shurflow pump?
how much was the IC piping?

mefreema

I have thought about using engine vacume to return oil from a remote turbo setup but cant figure out how to seperate it and return it to the pan once it returns to the motor. I guess you could just send it down the intake if it were a 2 stroke like my dirt bike!

mefreema

oops! didnt meant to repost. I just hit the back button and refreshed the page and poof!

PonyKiller87

I would like to do something similar to my truck which has a 5.0 Vortec motor. What would be a good size turbo to use?

305RSlc

Hello speed bump......bye bye turbo.....

MrDude_1

yup. just like how my muffler falls off everytime i hit a speedbump.

i was waiting for a stupid comment in this thread. expecting it.

i got to the 2nd to last post.. was impressed.. right until the last post...




anyhoo.. neat.
whats the FMU ratio? how rich (lean!?) is it running at boost anyway?
considering modding the wastegate?

305RSlc

Considering the rear end of a Cavalier and Camaro are EXACTLY the same I could see how you would get that comparison. The reason I said that is because it sits a bit low, a little too low for my liking. I have seen them on a Camaro, a fourth gen actually, and they look fine since you can mount them in the muffler compartment and something else will hit before the turbo does if you bottom out. I have nothing against them, except for the fact that it sits too low in the back of a Cavalier for me to justify it, but I live near bumpy roads so it may be different for each person.

So, how had the stupid comment?

MrDude_1

well, if you really want to know..... pretty damn stupid.

first off, who said i was talking about a camaro.
i can see how low it is in the pics... its not too low. any speedbump that the turbo would hit would already have the car hung up..

i suppose a perfect height bump, log, or curb (a HIGH one) if hit from reverse could smack it, but thats not somthing you cant deal with.

hitting a speedbump with it will have the same effect as hitting a speed bump IN A CAVALIER with a muffler... its not going to fall off.

as long as you dont drive the rear tire in a ditch with a bump infront of it, its fine. cavvys arnt made for offroading anyway.

80smetalfan

lol...

yeah, HOW HAD THE STUPID COMMENT, EH?

just kidding with ya, couldn't resist after seeing that one

MrDude_1

i resisted.

but i did chuckle..


anyhoo, not to hijack his thread.........


whats the FMU ratio? how rich (lean!?) is it running at boost anyway?
considering modding the wastegate?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh, REALLY? So what are they good for?

MrDude_1

a cheap dependable car that can fit mom, dad and the new baby in... along with all the assoc baby stuff.

they're also good for beating slow thirdgens who think they're fast.. **zips up flame suit**

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

My wife drives a sunfire (ordered it with all the GT stuff, quad 4, 5 speed, better suspension, tires…) in a base sunfire body. Totally unassuming, even minus the little wing. I used to use it for Mustang hunting. I've run a 15.56 with my wife in it with me at the track (showing her how the lights and turn arounds work, she was kinda nervous about running by herself). I bet that I could knock off a high 14 in it by myself if I'm more interested in driving rather then pointing at lights, beams and turn arounds…

Huh, probably hand a lot of 3rd gens their asses with those times, huh?

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

I like my wifes 03 cavy. If it wouldnt void her warrenty id consider slaping a spair 60/63 t3 I have on it.

89JYturbo

Great minds must think alike. I was also considering the power steering or ATF cooler idea for my turbo cavvy to help the life of the scavenge pump. It would have to be on the inlet (pressure) line though, as I would not want to impose a restriction on the drain side. I also thought of adding a sump possibly made out of a finned aluminum trans pan or something of the sort. This would hold the oil out of the turbo and hopefully cool it some too. The other benefit of the sump is that it would accumulate oil in it while the car is setting and keep the oil from backing up into the turbo and leaking past the seals. As it is now, I run the pump about 30 seconds after shutdown to remove as much oil from the outlet as possible. I found that if I don't do this, it will puff smoke when first started. It will also smoke a bit when started if I park with the back of the car sitting downhill. A smoking exhaust isn;t good for my image because I fix cars for a living! But as long as I run the pump a bit after shutting it off and park on the level there is no hint of oil smoke.

About the low hung turbo issue- If you look closely at the pictures, you will see that the lowest part of the turbo is just a few inches rearward of the axle. Even with the turbo so low, there is no problem with it dragging since it is so close to the axle. If it hung that low and was all the way back right under the bumper, it would cause some problems pulling out on inclined driveways, but I still don't think it would be low enough to scrape over a speed bump. What about all those imports with a 6" tailpipe under a lowered Honda? I have more ground clearance than they do. And amen to the guy who said Cavaliers are not for four wheeling.

83 Crossfire TA- since you are an experienced drag racer, what should I be running with my 94mph trap speeds? Any tips on how to launch FWD? I want to get some faster times with this setup, but need to get a bit more track time.

89JYturbo

Good question! The regulator is a cartec unit, and I don't think they have a specified ratio, as it is all adjustable. I adjust the center screw to for pressure at the onset of boost and the bleed screw for rate of pressure increase. I run 100+psi under full boost on stock injectors. I'm not sure if I mentioned it before, but there is a holley 255lph in tank pump (yes, I know its more than I need) . I had to upgrade the pump because the stock 174K mile pump only produced 70psi dead-headed with no load. I plan to install 24lb injectors when I replace the leaky lower intake manifold gaskets. Then we will play with the WG setting!

As it is now, the O2 sensor reads .775V or more under load, even at redline. I know the narrow band O2 sensor is inaccurate, but that voltage reading should at least have me in the ballpark.

305RSlc

Sadly, I'd have to agree with you on this one.....got beat once by a brand new cavy when I had my L03....I wasn't too happy.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Heh… for a long time the plan was to use one of the T3's that I had on my wife's car… that thing almost looks like it was laid out to be turbocharged. If this cavalier is like my wife's sunfire under the hood, it would have actually been easier to just mount the turbo in the engine bay between the engine and firewall… there's miles of room, the manifold is right there and you could actually connect to the stock exhaust.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Typically, with good traction that should net you about a 14.5. With killer traction it should be good for about 14.35.

I don't know what to tell you… I've gone on and on about launching f-bodies, and I seem to be met with responses ranging from "yea, right" to "you're full of ****." I've only made 2 passes in a fwd car, and that was my wife's sunfire, on stock (oem Goodyear), 205 60 15 tires, and I gave it enough of a burnout to make sure the tires were clean, 32psi in the tires (most radials work best in the 30-36psi range if you have them mounted on properly sized rims) just drove it out of the hole (gave it as much gas and clutch as the tires would just barely hold) and I got 2.01 and 2.09 60's. Not great, but good for a 15second pass.

for most cars, .775V O2 at WOT is dangerously lean. (the only GM car that I've heard of that's happy in that range is the GN's)

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

TONS of room back there.. they have turbo kits for em. but ya it would deff be easy to do.

http://www.cavalierconnection.com/Ecotec_turbo.htm

89JYturbo

You got me a little worried now about my AF ratio. I went out for some testing today to get some more accurate O2S readings. Turns out the .775v figure I stated is way off. I obtained this number as an estimate from my autometer AF ratio gauge (the gauge showed the 4th and 5th bars from the top, or 1 volt- since each bar equals .05v I figured .775 was a close gestimate). The actual measured O2S voltage off of my data logging scan tool was .938-.956 on a hard pull from 2000rpm to 5000rpm in 4th gear (I chose forth gear to allow enough time for stable readings). Now, would this indicate an over-rich condition, or is this right where it should be?

As a side note, I ran this test today, which was fairly hot (85°F) in my area, and there was no hint of spark knock on the scan tool. I am not running any type of timing control. I figured since the cavvy was tuned for the 87octane gas, and I now run premium (91-93 octane) with the turbo, that would be enough for detonation control. So far, it appears that that assumption was correct.

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

we ran a 75 shot of nitrous on a 3.1 cav. it had no problem untill the shrader valve had an issue (kinda long and dumb) any way it ended up running a 1/4 on a pure 75 shot of nos (NO extra fuel) he thought wow this thing is really moving huh? he hears a noise and at the end it was missing on a cyl. so he pulled the plugs and found one plug had lost it's electrode (long story short the exhaust valve closed on it and made enough of a nick and a bend in the valve to cause the miss) other wise the 3.1 took this abuse oh he had over 160000 miles on it.