My cheap, DIY, Twin Turbo Project Part1
#1
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My cheap, DIY, Twin Turbo Project Part1
Everyones jumping on the Turbo Bandwagon these days. Me too!
Im keeping it as simple as possible, using pretty inexpensive things everywhere I can. Ill just post pics and answer questions, to keep the whole thing short.
Here are some progress pictures, I started yesterday. Im also doing a Roller cam Retro-Fit at the same time, to get the most from the turbo's I felt it necessary to remove the largisg (234/244 @.050 ) camshaft and install a much more friendly turbo cam, a Turbo Grind that I picked out with the help of Crossfire TA and my own personal preference. (224/224 @ .050 .503 Lift 114LSA) Ill be using the V6 Junkyard Lifters to complete the retro fit. Didnt skimp on the hardware, though. All new springs, locks, retainers, and seats were purchased through comp.
Now for the pictures...
starting with the turbos, TD06-17C (possibly 20G, rebuilt by previous owner who traded them to a friend, who traded them to me...) supposedly the 17C is good for 350-400 horsepower each, and the 20G is good for 450~ each. either way, on either compressor map, im in a very safe zone and making decent power/efficiency.
Im keeping it as simple as possible, using pretty inexpensive things everywhere I can. Ill just post pics and answer questions, to keep the whole thing short.
Here are some progress pictures, I started yesterday. Im also doing a Roller cam Retro-Fit at the same time, to get the most from the turbo's I felt it necessary to remove the largisg (234/244 @.050 ) camshaft and install a much more friendly turbo cam, a Turbo Grind that I picked out with the help of Crossfire TA and my own personal preference. (224/224 @ .050 .503 Lift 114LSA) Ill be using the V6 Junkyard Lifters to complete the retro fit. Didnt skimp on the hardware, though. All new springs, locks, retainers, and seats were purchased through comp.
Now for the pictures...
starting with the turbos, TD06-17C (possibly 20G, rebuilt by previous owner who traded them to a friend, who traded them to me...) supposedly the 17C is good for 350-400 horsepower each, and the 20G is good for 450~ each. either way, on either compressor map, im in a very safe zone and making decent power/efficiency.
#2
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then the intercoolers, previous owner created them from a large deisel truck intercooler I THINK. They seem thick enough, Ill try them and record the IAT and MAT temps to see if they are any good. pressure drop will be a factor, we will see what they do.
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manifold extensions, they are very thick, to prevent warpage from heat and weight of the turbo. Approx 1/4" thick, with extra metal in all 4 corners to be safe.
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Dont want to post a million pics, this is the last one for now, have a TON more if someone feels like hosting them for me
if you want to see a particular picture, such as how thick the extensions are, or what they are made from, or how i blocked off the manifolds, or what rod I used to weld them, etc... ask I have all those pics too. last pic is my cam card, in case anyone wants to copy my custom roller cam. thanks to Crossfire TA for support on choosing a good one.
if you want to see a particular picture, such as how thick the extensions are, or what they are made from, or how i blocked off the manifolds, or what rod I used to weld them, etc... ask I have all those pics too. last pic is my cam card, in case anyone wants to copy my custom roller cam. thanks to Crossfire TA for support on choosing a good one.
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Lookin good
Any pics of the manifolds further out? How hard was it to weld to them?
The slight overlap on the valve timing should work very well with a forced induction setup. It's also great for producing bottom end TQ on N/A cars.
I found a website a while back on a guy's 2.3 turbo stang, who had made a massive intercooler out of 3 large volvo cores and custom side tanks. He only reported a 1 psi loss while using all aluminum tubing. When he had the rubber boots on it still connecting all the tubes, he was at about 3 psi loss. Keep in mind that this was only a single T3 on a 4 cyl, too. If what that guy said is true, I don't think you'll have to much of an issue with your setup.
Keep us updated
Any pics of the manifolds further out? How hard was it to weld to them?
The slight overlap on the valve timing should work very well with a forced induction setup. It's also great for producing bottom end TQ on N/A cars.
I found a website a while back on a guy's 2.3 turbo stang, who had made a massive intercooler out of 3 large volvo cores and custom side tanks. He only reported a 1 psi loss while using all aluminum tubing. When he had the rubber boots on it still connecting all the tubes, he was at about 3 psi loss. Keep in mind that this was only a single T3 on a 4 cyl, too. If what that guy said is true, I don't think you'll have to much of an issue with your setup.
Keep us updated
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Car: 2002 Formula Firebird
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Buddy of mine runs a 17C on his laser. I hear it is very inefficient...you sure its big enough to feed a v8?
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#8
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Originally posted by 88Camaro350
Buddy of mine runs a 17C on his laser. I hear it is very inefficient...you sure its big enough to feed a v8?
Buddy of mine runs a 17C on his laser. I hear it is very inefficient...you sure its big enough to feed a v8?
#9
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<b>Any pics of the manifolds further out? How hard was it to weld to them? </b>
very simple to weld, the L98 manifolds are cast STEEL, not iron, so I didnt even bother pre-heating them or peening them.
Just cleaned up the area real good, then used a CAST/NICKEL rod and a high amperage arc welder to fill it in. Have not welded on the extensions yet, have to triple check they are at the proper angles before i do the final welds.
Did weld the stock exit exhaust spots on the manifolds shut though. came out very good...
very simple to weld, the L98 manifolds are cast STEEL, not iron, so I didnt even bother pre-heating them or peening them.
Just cleaned up the area real good, then used a CAST/NICKEL rod and a high amperage arc welder to fill it in. Have not welded on the extensions yet, have to triple check they are at the proper angles before i do the final welds.
Did weld the stock exit exhaust spots on the manifolds shut though. came out very good...
#10
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here is the weld on the manifold. It looked sort of blue/redish (like raw nickel) because of the nickel content in the rod.
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Looks like a very clean job on them. This is the kind of stuff that gets me excited, is the budget horsepower. It's much more challenging than buying everything pre-made and installing it.
Great job
Great job
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Car: 2002 Formula Firebird
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How much boost are you hoping to see from those 2?
Man all this turbo talk makes me wanna do it to. Would take me a lot of money and a ton of fabbed up hoses....hmmm TT carbed 350
Man all this turbo talk makes me wanna do it to. Would take me a lot of money and a ton of fabbed up hoses....hmmm TT carbed 350
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Car: '99 Trans Am, '86 Camaro
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DIY JY turbocharging actually isn't as expensive as you think...setup reusing the stock manifold on my V6, while obvious to anyone isn't the most efficient system, only ended up running about 100 bucks and regardless of how pretty it isn't, still spools the turbocharger. Looks good, Kingtal0n
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Car: 89 Camaro IROC-Z
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Kingtal0n:
Those manifolds look strikingly familiar.
Where did you ever get that crazy idea??
Those manifolds look strikingly familiar.
Where did you ever get that crazy idea??
Last edited by 89JYturbo; 05-23-2004 at 03:12 PM.
#17
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Originally posted by 89JYturbo
Kingtal0n:
Those manifolds look strikingly familiar.
Where did you ever get that crazy idea??
Kingtal0n:
Those manifolds look strikingly familiar.
Where did you ever get that crazy idea??
Turns out they are upgraded (We think) Syclone turbos... and completelly rebuilt from the fact there is no oil in them at all, and ZERO shaft play to boot. A few of the local speed shops (South Florida Performance, Street legal Imports, etc..) have identified them as Syclone turbos, along with part numbers, but there is a debate as to whether the compressor was upgraded to 20G or not.
Either way, in 17C or 20G form, they will easilly push me up to 12PSI of boost in a very efficient range of the turbo, well away from surge together, this I gather both from the math I have done with the compressor maps, and from what Crossfire TA has told me. I figured at the same time I did the turbo swap, I would do a roller cam retro fit into my pre-86 block as well.... so i found some junkyard V6 lifters and got a custom comp grind to match the turbos. so far, so good.
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Just an update, yesterday while clearanced the block for the dogbones to retain the lifters, I cut into a water jacket.
today I fixed it up, first I tried welding, then brazing, then finnaly I just JB Welded the hole closed because none of the above seemed to work. I also installed my #8 oil return fittings into the oil pan, basically cut the hole big enough for them to thread in, and used JB weld (again) to seal them in place. man, this stuff is great. I also tack welded up the driver side manifold for welding tommarow...
<b> 89JYturbo </b>
I would like to know how close your downpipe came to the master cylinder. as it is, mine is VERY close and its going to be a squeeze and bend to get it to clear off towards the motor. Maybe my turbos are just a little bigger than yours, but its tight right there.
today I fixed it up, first I tried welding, then brazing, then finnaly I just JB Welded the hole closed because none of the above seemed to work. I also installed my #8 oil return fittings into the oil pan, basically cut the hole big enough for them to thread in, and used JB weld (again) to seal them in place. man, this stuff is great. I also tack welded up the driver side manifold for welding tommarow...
<b> 89JYturbo </b>
I would like to know how close your downpipe came to the master cylinder. as it is, mine is VERY close and its going to be a squeeze and bend to get it to clear off towards the motor. Maybe my turbos are just a little bigger than yours, but its tight right there.
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Ah! Now I know why you were looking for manifolds. Well I checked the ones I got and they will be perfect for what you're doing. Lemme know if you still want them and I'll calculate shipping. I would much rather see them put to use this way than get trashed.
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Your gona trust your motor to JB Weld holding colsed a waterjacket mishap??
I hope this is a Junk motor your just tossing together untill the real deal is finished being built for boost??
I hope this is a Junk motor your just tossing together untill the real deal is finished being built for boost??
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Originally posted by TPl383
Your gona trust your motor to JB Weld holding colsed a waterjacket mishap??
I hope this is a Junk motor your just tossing together untill the real deal is finished being built for boost??
Your gona trust your motor to JB Weld holding colsed a waterjacket mishap??
I hope this is a Junk motor your just tossing together untill the real deal is finished being built for boost??
And after reading about all of this $$$$$$$ to be saved doing the bootleg homemade retrofit I guess the cost of a destroyed block was not factored in... LOL
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Originally posted by Kenwood
No kidding... As if the homade retrofit kit was not bad enough lets add insult to injury and fill the holes with JB weld...
And after reading about all of this $$$$$$$ to be saved doing the bootleg homemade retrofit I guess the cost of a destroyed block was not factored in... LOL
No kidding... As if the homade retrofit kit was not bad enough lets add insult to injury and fill the holes with JB weld...
And after reading about all of this $$$$$$$ to be saved doing the bootleg homemade retrofit I guess the cost of a destroyed block was not factored in... LOL
U are gonna spend more money freakin fixing the messups than just forking over the money upfront for the retrofit kit...
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ROFLMAO at cutting into the water jacket while 'saving money' doing a hack-job to 'retro-fit' roller lifters into the block. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to try to save a few bucks i guess.
Of course, if you were able to hit the water jacket in one spot, i imagine it's pretty thin everywhere else too.
Even funnier that you're still going to try to run it with JB weld on the block.
Who wants to lay money on what leaks first. The JB welded hole, or a new hole from a thin spot elsewhere? I have my money on a thin spot, just because that will be the only thing funnier than the JB weld itself.
Of course, if you were able to hit the water jacket in one spot, i imagine it's pretty thin everywhere else too.
Even funnier that you're still going to try to run it with JB weld on the block.
Who wants to lay money on what leaks first. The JB welded hole, or a new hole from a thin spot elsewhere? I have my money on a thin spot, just because that will be the only thing funnier than the JB weld itself.
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Why did you have to go and say that? Now he's just gonna coat the entire galley with it, so there! No leaks now right?...
#26
give him a break...
first of all do some research on the JY roller lifter thing, its really not that bad, i'd probably do it if i didn't have a roler cam block
as far as the JB weld goes i dont recomend it of course, but i do have a friend with a crx... sposedly had some special motor in it (plus a turbo), well after shifting it at 7500+ RPMs he put a 4" hole in the side of the block, and when looking for a new motor found a rotating assembly, but couldn't find that special block.... so he JB welded the 3-4 big chunks of metal back together on the block... and its been running for about 5000 miles so far.. he's just shifting a little lower, but still runs the boost.... im am not saying this was a good idea, but if it was a pretty tiny hole then he'll probably be fine
i would worry bout the other spots being very thin though
first of all do some research on the JY roller lifter thing, its really not that bad, i'd probably do it if i didn't have a roler cam block
as far as the JB weld goes i dont recomend it of course, but i do have a friend with a crx... sposedly had some special motor in it (plus a turbo), well after shifting it at 7500+ RPMs he put a 4" hole in the side of the block, and when looking for a new motor found a rotating assembly, but couldn't find that special block.... so he JB welded the 3-4 big chunks of metal back together on the block... and its been running for about 5000 miles so far.. he's just shifting a little lower, but still runs the boost.... im am not saying this was a good idea, but if it was a pretty tiny hole then he'll probably be fine
i would worry bout the other spots being very thin though
Last edited by stevedave454; 05-24-2004 at 08:38 PM.
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Car: 89 Camaro IROC-Z
Engine: Intercooled Twin Turbo LQ4
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Originally posted by Kingtal0n
<b> 89JYturbo </b>
I would like to know how close your downpipe came to the master cylinder. as it is, mine is VERY close and its going to be a squeeze and bend to get it to clear off towards the motor. Maybe my turbos are just a little bigger than yours, but its tight right there.
<b> 89JYturbo </b>
I would like to know how close your downpipe came to the master cylinder. as it is, mine is VERY close and its going to be a squeeze and bend to get it to clear off towards the motor. Maybe my turbos are just a little bigger than yours, but its tight right there.
Possibly even more of a problem though is how to snake the downpipe between the LH manifold and the steering shaft. You will need to reposition some brake lines to go between the steering shaft and the framerail (from the factory they go between the steering shaft and the manifold- look at your car and you should see what i mean). Then you will need to smash (uh- I mean massage) your downpipe to approx 1.75" to fit between the manifold and the shaft. I will try to get you a picture of this as well.
Last edited by 89JYturbo; 05-24-2004 at 09:46 PM.
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stevedave454, I would, but how much does a truck or van block go for with the provisions already cast? $50-$100 at the yard? With the guts even? If they want the bloody thing just go that route and scrounge the parts that way and through ebay. They can even brag about a four bolt block. I can't beleive these guys don't just go and find a later caprice with the 350 and all either. But hell, maybe I'm just lazy.
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Car: 89 Camaro IROC-Z
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Hope this pic helps with your brake clearance issues. It is the best pic I could find at the time. I took a lot of pictures though, as this was one of my problem areas. You can see how my downpipe runs under the MC, so I had to reroute the lines up, left, back, and then down. They just loop around the master cylinder instead of going straigh down. You will need an ISO bubble flare (metric) tool to make the proper flare on your lines.
Don't forget to add the heat shielding to the MC! I was worried that heat would cause problems with the plastic fluid reservoir, but no problems appeared in several thousand miles of driving. I know its tight in this area- hope you have some luck with it.
Don't forget to add the heat shielding to the MC! I was worried that heat would cause problems with the plastic fluid reservoir, but no problems appeared in several thousand miles of driving. I know its tight in this area- hope you have some luck with it.
Last edited by 89JYturbo; 05-24-2004 at 10:12 PM.
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Originally posted by stevedave454
give him a break...
first of all do some research on the JY roller lifter thing, its really not that bad, i'd probably do it if i didn't have a roler cam block
give him a break...
first of all do some research on the JY roller lifter thing, its really not that bad, i'd probably do it if i didn't have a roler cam block
My side the whole time was spend the money in the right place and BUY THE COMP CAMS RETROFIT LIFTERS. But no someone wants to go rob the lifter valley spider, lifters, retainers, etc out of a junkyard. Why not take the whole block in the first place.
My final stance on the homemade roller cam job: NO BREAKS! ITS A HACKJOB.
#31
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LOL guys the JB weld was a joke!
whew.
I actually did weld up the hole and the other spots I clearanced were no where near this high up, just so happened the wheel was a bit too big...
anyways, its all back together now, I just have to throw on the turbos and get it going. Should be running in 1-2 more days...
I DID use some JB weld on the fitting in the back of the manifolds where it goes from 1/8"pipe to #3AN, because of the clearanceing for the stealthram It seemed sort of weak. thats the only spot that has JB weld on it though... so sue me!
whew.
I actually did weld up the hole and the other spots I clearanced were no where near this high up, just so happened the wheel was a bit too big...
anyways, its all back together now, I just have to throw on the turbos and get it going. Should be running in 1-2 more days...
I DID use some JB weld on the fitting in the back of the manifolds where it goes from 1/8"pipe to #3AN, because of the clearanceing for the stealthram It seemed sort of weak. thats the only spot that has JB weld on it though... so sue me!
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Whew... This would have ranked up there when the guy took the electric bilge motor and hooked it up to his intake.
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Originally posted by Kingtal0n
LOL guys the JB weld was a joke!...
LOL guys the JB weld was a joke!...
Originally posted by Kingtal0n
...today I fixed it up, first I tried welding, then brazing, then finnaly I just JB Welded the hole closed because none of the above seemed to work. ...
...today I fixed it up, first I tried welding, then brazing, then finnaly I just JB Welded the hole closed because none of the above seemed to work. ...
Maybe when this stops amusing me I'll take a peek.
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Hey, at least if he rigged up the engine, he won't feel guilty to give it an insane amount of boost! If it blows up, he didn't loose too much.
Anyway, here is a pic of the LH downpipe where it must squeeze between the steering shaft and the manifold. Doesn't look too bad here on the engine stand, but try fabbing this downpipe with the engine installed and the brake booster, MC, and lines all in your way. Notice how it is pinched down to approx 1.75" (from 2.5") to fit.
Anyway, here is a pic of the LH downpipe where it must squeeze between the steering shaft and the manifold. Doesn't look too bad here on the engine stand, but try fabbing this downpipe with the engine installed and the brake booster, MC, and lines all in your way. Notice how it is pinched down to approx 1.75" (from 2.5") to fit.
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No way man...not seat foam... but what about a Bilge pump blower feeding in series to the turbos...LOL
#37
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Originally posted by Red Devil
Didn't even remotely sound like a joke. No inclination whatsoever that you were joking. And I am still under the impression that you did it. I still rank it up there with the leaf blower crap. Didn't see the bilge pump.
Maybe when this stops amusing me I'll take a peek.
Didn't even remotely sound like a joke. No inclination whatsoever that you were joking. And I am still under the impression that you did it. I still rank it up there with the leaf blower crap. Didn't see the bilge pump.
Maybe when this stops amusing me I'll take a peek.
What you DO see is some spot welds, like I said, to hold down the studs for the retainer.
#38
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here is the finished assembled. no jb weld... just a small line of nickel in the pin-hole i created that you can barelly see in the pic.
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Yikes. You have even less clearance to the MC than what I did. But it looks really cool. This is the point where the project starts to get exciting, isn't it? Seeing those turbos under the hood will sure keep you motivated!
#42
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oh yeah, ive already run the downpipes they are done. it comes real close to the MC, but i put a large heat shield between the two like you suggested. when i see how hot those downpipes get maybe ill wrap them in header wrap or get the pipes coated or something if it becomes a problem.
#43
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Progress...
Started it today to break in the cam and get things toasty. everything seems to be in working order...
tommarow i hook up the intake pipes and give it some boost! hopefully.
Started it today to break in the cam and get things toasty. everything seems to be in working order...
tommarow i hook up the intake pipes and give it some boost! hopefully.
#44
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Im running twin front mounts, in front of the radiator. they feed up towards the core support, and bend towards the throttle body. Yes the hood still closes.
My next biggest problem is how to clamp a 4" oval tube into the throttle body. for some weird reason, JB weld keeps coming to mind
JK
My next biggest problem is how to clamp a 4" oval tube into the throttle body. for some weird reason, JB weld keeps coming to mind
JK
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Check out the plumbing section at the local hardware, should have thick rubber adapters to join different size/type of pipe. They cost about $6 ea. here.
Looks like it's really coming together good, keep the updates rollin'
Looks like it's really coming together good, keep the updates rollin'
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Car: 98 Z28 vert
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Axle/Gears: 2.73 - boo racing yay MPG
On a side note about the JBweld - I had an 85 corolla I got free from my uncle. He was nice enough to break off the thermostat housing from the block (on of the ears with a threaded bolt hole in it). my dad and I JB welded it together (with no t-stat i might add) now almost 3 years later the car is still rolling around...
We also glued the radiator of an accord back together after I wrecked it. Don't know what happened to that POS though.
We also glued the radiator of an accord back together after I wrecked it. Don't know what happened to that POS though.
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Engine: Intercooled Twin Turbo LQ4
Transmission: Tremec TKO 600
Originally posted by Kingtal0n
oh yeah, ive already run the downpipes they are done. it comes real close to the MC, but i put a large heat shield between the two like you suggested. when i see how hot those downpipes get maybe ill wrap them in header wrap or get the pipes coated or something if it becomes a problem.
oh yeah, ive already run the downpipes they are done. it comes real close to the MC, but i put a large heat shield between the two like you suggested. when i see how hot those downpipes get maybe ill wrap them in header wrap or get the pipes coated or something if it becomes a problem.
Thats great. Did you have to modify your brake lines at all, or did you just bend them out of the way?
Your welding on the manifolds sure looks nicer than mine!
#48
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Actually I didnt touch the brake lines, I ran the downpipe straight down and back as close to the engine as possible, away from the brake lines.
the only part of the brake system thats in any danger of getting too hot is the very tip of the master cylinder... after running for a while it gets hot but not too hot to touch... but i havnt put it under boost yet.
In another UPDATE:
Today I welded in the blow off valves, and connected most of the intake tubes. I held my hands over the outlets of the intercoolers and revved the motor; and noticed two things:
thing #1: the tune of the motor is WAY OFF. I got like 3 backfires out of this thing just trying to slowly open the throttle. Gota get the computer on it..
thing #2: the blow off valves sound real cool
the only part of the brake system thats in any danger of getting too hot is the very tip of the master cylinder... after running for a while it gets hot but not too hot to touch... but i havnt put it under boost yet.
In another UPDATE:
Today I welded in the blow off valves, and connected most of the intake tubes. I held my hands over the outlets of the intercoolers and revved the motor; and noticed two things:
thing #1: the tune of the motor is WAY OFF. I got like 3 backfires out of this thing just trying to slowly open the throttle. Gota get the computer on it..
thing #2: the blow off valves sound real cool
#49
Kingtal0n. Welding question?
So the L98 manifold is cast steel as opposed to cast iron. Are any other GM mainfolds cast steel as well so we have more options for scrounging up a set of manifolds?
Also you used a Cast/Nickel rod. What is the # of that rod? Is it a AC or DC rod? Could I use a 6013 rod?
Thanks!
Also you used a Cast/Nickel rod. What is the # of that rod? Is it a AC or DC rod? Could I use a 6013 rod?
Thanks!
#50
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Car: 1987 GTA
Engine: PT88 Turbo DART 406
Transmission: th400
Axle/Gears: 9" ford
To attach the oval tube to the tb GO TO EBAY AND TYPE SILICONE HOSE...LOOK FOR(sorry caps) look for 4" in whatever color you want...Much better than hardware store rubber>>> then find a shop with or buy a bead roller....have a 1/4 bead rolled into the tube...then buy some 4" closed stainless t-bolt clamps....that will keep everything in check...