prscarf

has anybody tried using a single plane manifold like the weiand x-celerator
manifold and adapter plate for tbi and notice any power increases throughout the entire rpm without sacrificing any bottom end.
i was considering to use one on my stroker 383 because my existing manifold has been planed and is not fitting correctly on the heads. this is in a truck has all the aftermarket goodys. i can get this manifold cheap and don’t want to loose my pulling power. the engine presently has the performer intake c/w holley adapter and 2” 454tb. i had to double up on the intake gaskets to fit the manifold.

is it true the tbi on a single plane doesnt require the vaccum like a carb engine?


383 stroker, 64cc 23deg trickflow heads c/w edlebrock performer intake and adapter, cam is an extreme 4x4 comp. Cam. 12-235-2 grind ( .447/.462 lift, duration 210 218 lift @50, 111 lobe separation) . unit has hypr. Flattop floating pistons, eagle cast crank, 5.7eagle rods. 10.2:1 comp. Headers c/w 2.5” flowmaster exhaust. 16147060 pcm, $85def
454tbi 80lbinjectors

Tas

go for it. Intake swaps are easy anyway.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

FastBroker

IMO as a fellow low-end lover, DON'T do it UNLESS you don't mind swapping back if you don't like it. Plus, your fuel demands will surely change with that manifold, ie, PROM changes and/or FP changes MAY be in order. Just get the manifold that doesn't fit operated on...

Tas

pablo had no low end trouble with his. Only when he put a carb on his torker 2 did it have no low end. With TBI you can have the best of both.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

Dan W

Tas, there is more to it than just the fuel metering issue. A dual planes runners are longer so they will tend to maximise low end torque compared to a single plane... at the cost of top end power. Single planes with EFI do make perfectly acceptable low end power but they dont maximise low end power.

------------------
1988 T/A,
9" Ford, 3.50 gears, Auburn posi, 700r4 -w- 2100 converter, 360ci, 9.8:1 cr,
AFR 195 Heads, Weiand #7525 intake, Lunati roller 219/227, .479/.480, 112 LSA
GM big block 2bbl TBI on truck 7747 computer

Tas

is a 383. How much low end is usable before you have traction and drivetrain problems?

SSC

I saw this in the gentec and decided to chase your post down.
I had that manifold on my truck "carbed" but im not using it anymore.
I was getting poor fuel economy no matter how much I tunned the carb. Power wise there was no loss on the bottem and spun up through the rpm's very quickly "it just loves gas"
With a CC tbi I see no problems with using it on your setup the computer will compensate for the af ratio so you shouldent see much loss in economy. Now If you wanted to play it safe I would reccomend the stealth manifold Im using the stealth's on my camaro "drag car" and my truck with no problems. If you do it post your results.
SSC

Gotta pay attention to my illiteration it sucks tonight

[This message has been edited by SSC (edited July 25, 2001).]

prscarf

this engine is in a 6000lb truck with diffs as heavy as a sbc engine. tranny is the biggest gm has built since this year, 4l80e. the tires are 35" c/w a posi rearend. as for traction, you need more than a 383 in a 6000 lb crew cab 4x4 to burn down to the rims let me tell you. it does have lots of torque but it would haul *** if it was in one of your small firebirds and melt the tires.

FastBroker

Yeah, Brother!!! Yeah. the single planer would work but IME, use a dual plane for the truck. I had 44's on my wrangler for a while until the Cops put an end to it. Needed all the low-end I could muster... 31x12.50x15 BFG AT's now. Nice to spin'em both periodically. Two fat 11" tread marks... Sweet.

Tas

ok that makes sense now. Might as well use a edelbrock TBI or performer RPM then.

FastBroker

Do NOT use the Edelbrock TBI, use the Performer spreadbore (2101 or the EGR equipped one) with an adapter plate, IMO. Your truck will run JUST fine that way through 5500rpm.

Tas

I have a mag that used a stock size TBI with the performer TBI intake on a 383 and got 450 TQ. Why wouldn't you want that?

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited July 26, 2001).]

Andy89RS

A single plane is a complete waste unless the engine it's sitting on is capable of making power up to 7000rpm or so.

Brent

iTrader: (1)

I hate to race magazines, but Traco found the Edelbrock TBI intake didn't get the job done on their 305 so they switched to a Performer with adapter. YMMV

Tas

I don't think so Andy. There are lots of single planes. Look at the differance between a torker2 to a Victor Jr. to a Victor. The torker has a lot less plenum volume and the runners are as small as a Performer intake.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

giovanhalen

Do it if you want to change to a carb.

Andy89RS

Torker 2 single plane: rated for power from 2500 - 6500 rpm

Wieand X-CELerator single plane: 2500 - 6500 rpm

Performer dual plane: idle - 5500 rpm

Performer rpm: 1500 - 6500 rpm

Remind me where our engines redline again? For laughs lets just say we go 500 rpm over redline, to 5500 rpm.

The Torker has a power band 3000 rpm wide.

X-CELerator: 3500 rpm

Performer: 5000 rpm

Performer RPM: 4000 rpm

The advantage to the single plane would be what exactly? Remember the question was from someone who didn't "want to lose my pulling power". For good pulling power you need the broadest torque curve possible, a single plane will not provide that.

prscarf

what you are quoting are the figures from a carb!!!!!!! the question was, tbi doesn't require the same operating vaccums a carb requires. i would like to see if anybody has used a performer, like i have on my tbi engine and have now experienced its cababilities, then compare it to a torkerII on the same tbi engine and would like to know if anybody else other than pablo has experienced the difference. i think it will react differently than what the book specs tell us when using a tbi, thats it!

i will tell you one thing for sure, if i had your fire chickens i wouldn't be screwing around with a performer intake. the first thing i would bolt to the engine would be torkerII or other single plane designs. i have used them with carbs and are like night and day when street racing with the proper engine part combs. when i run my gto as a sat fun machine the rpms are starting at 3000 to 6000rpm and usually has a steady diet of other preformance cars from light to light and its a 4spd car. it has no problems spinning both 60series tires without clutch dumping in the first 3gears, this means putting in gear and then pressing on the peddle. this all equals torque my friend.


[This message has been edited by prscarf (edited July 28, 2001).]

JPrevost

If the truck is going to be used and not just for show/race, go with a dual plane. What is the stall speed on the converter? If it's aftermarket and higher more than 2400 then think about a torker 2 and an adaptor/spacer plate. The problem with these intakes is that they don't tell you what kind of motors they're best matched too. I could have a crazy 420 small block and a super crazy 305, what would you use? The 383 would probably do good with either the torker 2 or RPM, I would just look at the whole picture, not just rated rpm operation because that is only a small picture.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

Andy89RS

True TBI doesn't require the same vacuum as a carb, but the biggest difference in power comes from the air flow. The single plane has much slower airflow at low rpm versus the dual plane. Tuning with intake airflow is why the LT5's and the V6's in Taurus SHO's made so much power for their size. The SHO has long runners for low rpm, then opens short runners over 4000 rpm. In effect it uses a dual plane from idle to 4000, then swithces to a single plane. Vacuum matters even less in that engine than a TBI since it's a dry manifold.

That proves my point. Trucks need power at low rpm much more than high rpm to pull heavy loads. Gas engines made specifically for trucks will be tuned for low speed power. The best engines for towing are diesels, and we all know they don't even have a top end, let alone a powerfull one since they usually redline somewhere around 3500 rpm.

As for most of the rest of us here? Most cars here are still mostly stock. Running a manifold designed for high rpm power on an engine that'll float the valves at only 5500 rpm and has as weak a cam as the LO3's do is a waste.

prscarf

don't get me wrong, i agree with your thinking and fully understand the dual and single plane design and this is why i have the dual plane performer on my truck. i was just wondering who was running a single plane who could share the experience with tbi.

one more thought, look at edelbrocks pro-flo system with the 4barrel tb and multiport fuel system, it's a x type single plane for up to 450hp. on the side of the summit cat. there is a small sign which says "truck applications available", just a thought for you car buffs. i really don't know what to make of this! but the sell the it.

AJ_92RS

You are so right. Dual planes also have narrow runners that build velocity. Higher velocity is what builds torque. The smaller the area that the same amount(cfm) of air flows through, the faster it flows. And like you said, the longer runners also build velocity. But once the engine demands of the airflow is more than the narrow runners allow, you run out of flow at upper rpms. That's where single plane intakes take over. They have much larger (area), shorter runners.

Same holds true for carb/TB. A smaller dia. TB or carb, the higher the velocity of the air that flows through it. You can actually make a single plane intake work better for street driving by using a smaller carb. Then switch to that 750cfm carb when you go to the strip. (I did that on a 72 Nova I had.) That may be why some of you have had good luck running a TB on a single plane. A TB is pretty small, that's why they bench flow them at 3in/HG instead of the 1.5in/Hg standard for 4v carbs. (We had that topic on a different post.) The smaller bores would build the velocity that the single plane runners can't.

I guess for more stout torque, go with a dual plane. Unless you plan on running over 5500rpms a lot. You know you want to!!!!!!!

AJ

Dan W

General Rules:
Single Plane with carb = loss of low end 4.10 gears and 3000 stall converter
Single Plane with TBI = Not as significant a loss of low end... acceptable for a high performance street car especially with gears and converter
Dual plane = Maximises low end on all vehicles... can use stock gears and converter
X-Style single plane intakes - An outdated style designed in the 60's. The new designs with runners that sweep forward (or back) before making a turn into the cylinder head work better.
Torquer, Torquer II, A comprimise single plane intake thats designed to improve low end characteristics with a carb (by assisting a carbs fuel metering requirements)by using very small runners that dont flow as well... costing top end power.
Perf RPM - A comprimise Dual plane thats uses a taller plenum and larger runners to improve high RPM power at the cost of low rpm power compared to its low rise dual plane cousins... will also be able to take advantage of gears and converter while probably not a requirement.

With TBI, low end with any intake should be better to varying degrees due to improved fuel metering. Fuel problems with carbs on street cars are the biggest limiting factor. We as TBI people need be aware of how different intake styles affect airflow as this is the largest consideration for us.

------------------
1988 T/A,
9" Ford, 3.50 gears, Auburn posi, 700r4 -w- 2100 converter, 360ci, 9.8:1 cr,
AFR 195 Heads, Weiand #7525 intake, Lunati roller 219/227, .479/.480, 112 LSA
GM big block 2bbl TBI on truck 7747 computer

Tas

yes with the single plane you will need to go way over our 4500RPM redline but that should be a given to anyone about to do the swap. A hyd. roller cam chevy v8 can safely go 6500 RPM with the right valve springs, and pistons.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS-6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, Milodon 160* thermo, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

To be installed eventually far far far into the future: Yours if the price is right and I don't have to ship :
Hooker 1-5/8" 50 state legal headers, Dynomax 3" I pipe (PN 44063 and 43248), Catco 3" cat, and injector spacer.

Super GRK_Taz World
F-Body Dual Exaust
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz

[This message has been edited by Tas (edited July 29, 2001).]

AJ_92RS

I just want to elaborate a little more on the use of a throttle body.

A dual plane intake manifold will cut the available cfm to half the cylinders, well, in half. Only 4 cylinders will only have access to 250cfm from a 500cfm throttle body/carb, and visa versa. That makes dual plane intakes much more sensitive to proper flow selection when using a carb due to the fuel mixture and demands of the engine (as was stated earlier). With a CC TB, the computer would be able to monitor and adjust the A/F mixture to compensate for the sensitivity of a dual plane.

A single plane intake makes 500 cfm (from a 500 cfm carb of course) available to any cylinder that needs it at any given moment. That makes them more forgiving as far as carb cfm selection. And even then, a CC TB would be better suited for maximum efficiency. It would be a piggy back effect of the single plane's forgiveness along with the computer's ability to adjust for a/f mixture. It would be the best of both worlds.

So it seems at least I answered my own question, which was would a TBI be better on a single or dual plane intake. Seems like it would be better used on a single plane. It would be able to "help" a dual plane more, but on a single plane, it would help power more. Which would you rather have it doing? Making up for a flaw in an intake design, or making better use of an intake design?

EDIT: I just realized that I am totally contradicting what I said earlier. I guess I have seen the error of my ways. Go with the low profile single plane, mainly for the sake of it having the narrower runners, but also an open plenum. Good Luck!!!! Isn't EFI great?

[This message has been edited by AJ_92RS (edited July 29, 2001).]

FastBroker

I give up on this. You guys run whatever you want. Learn for yourself...

James406Camaro

Why don't you cut out the divider in a performer type intake. This will give you long runners and a full 500cfm to each side of the engine. Just a thought.

------------------
James

85 camaro, 406 sbc, 5.7 rods, Sportsman II heads, Edel. Performer RPM intake, Isky 270 221@.050 .465lift 108sep, Crane Rollers 1.5 7/16, SLP 13/4 headers, TH-350, TCI Breakaway, MSD Pro-Billet distributor, AIS Ram Air Box with 14x3 K&N, 295BFG's on 15x8.5 with 5 inch back space @ rear, 165/15's on 15x4 @ front, 3050lbs w/o me, No times yet but plenty quick!

NTChrist

I think that a dual-might be more of an alternative if he was running the 305's and 350's we're familiar with. IMO a 383 will have the necessary CID to use a single plane's flow abilities, even at lower RPM. A good, recently designed, non-compromised single plane can make good torque. Car Craft proved that a dual-quad tunnel ram makes more torque than a single carb, with a dual plane. That's slightly different than what he's dealing with, but the same principles are in effect.

------------------
No guts, no glory.

[This message has been edited by NTChrist (edited August 07, 2001).]

JPrevost

It's not about how much torque!!!!
It's about WHERE the torque is. The single plane will not have the flat early torque curve like the dual plane mainly because of runner length. The velocity on a single plane design is like the LT1 intake. The TPI has much longer runners, it's a proven fact on both wet and dry flow that runner length is very important for power. The Ford SHO is one of my favorite engine intakes. Yamaha v6 uses a TPI style intake but it's got 2 sets of runners, short and long (again dry flow) for a wider more streetable power band. The small block chevy has it's limitations and one of them is either you get power high or low. With a 327, 302, largely oversquare engines you usually want power high and that is why in most cases they are installed in light cars. You'll also notice many with single plane intakes if they race. The larger displacement will have more torque and when I say more I'm talking about the area under the curve. They are more efficient in a heavy vehicle and that is why they are usually fitted with a dual plane.
Fastbroker, I understand your frustration. I'm no expert but I think what I just explaned is right, if not, sorry.
You can bring up that my examples are dry flow but you will still notice universal examples that support my comments.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

Guest

Yea, a piece of junk untuned carb... Had he spent nearly as much time working with it as the TBI, the 'no low end' you suggest wouldnt be a problem anymore.

Single planes are not for low end torque, no matter what sort of induction you run... its kind of a moot point. Look at the miniram for example, its as close as you can get to a single plane style manifold that sorta looks like a TPI, and guess what? Its no low end torque monster... surprise surprise. You have to decide the operating range of your engine and what you want to use the car for, and THEN decide what manifold to use. Using the excuse that a TBI doesnt need a vacuum signal and it produces better low end torque than a carb is a stupid argument to use a manifold that doesnt fit the intended usage of the vehicle. If you are going to do all that, then by all means run super short connecting rods to raise the rpm range because the TBI will compensate for the lost torque

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

With my single plane and 305 I actually have to push start my car sometimes!! and thats with a 4.88 rear!


If i had only read hotrod magazines I'd'a known those things were for race cars only! Boy now i feel like a dummy

pontiac

i'm from Finland where most of the cars are 1.6 liters, if huge one with bunch of killer torque will come around it's 3.0

i'm pretty sure if you rolling with your nicely tuned five point o'h where power peak is around 6000rpm, you still have some torque around 2000rpm and car is very much driveable. torque and power... how do you say it "you wanna eat the cake and still have it"? for example, my friend have 10 years old MB 300E with automatic. peak power is around 6k and redline 6.5k. engine is only 3.0 and i think it's still driveable if i still were one of you TBI guys, i'd go single plane w/ EGR for sure and let the engine breath nothing beats sound of V8 at 6000rpm (never heard that though)


-P


------------------
Pontiac Trans Am GTA'89

CC1 GW6 G80 JG1 L98 MXO N64 WS6 822

mods: firebird '89 four spoke steering wheel and i'm still not running low 13's yet!

Guest

Last I heard, you had to attach a JATO to get it off the line!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

with my new line of work you know that im that much closer to that being possible... Be afraid.. or maybe i should be afraid hehe

prscarf

i have purchased a weiand single plane
Weiand X-CELerator intake 1500-6500 RPM. Part #7546 from ebay.

i will tell you how it goes next week. this should put to rest this single to dual plane debate for me.

BahamutRS

What adaptor plate should I use with the Weiand?

------------------
1992 Camaro RS (Auto)
-
Performance mods
NOS (125 HP shot)
Dynomax cat-back exhaust
Hedman headers
K & N open element/ X-Stream lid
MSD 6A ignition
Under drive pulleys
LT1 camshaft
Now ordered:
Edelbrock intake manifold
3.42 posi
B & M 2400 RPM stall torque converter
Transgo shift kit
Moroso Blue Max plug wires
305 TPI heads

Audio
Sony Xplod CDX-M610 head unit
Pioneer 2-way 4x6 front speakers
Pioneer 3-way 6x9 rear speakers
12 inch Pioneer VCCS PRO subwoofer
QLogic sealed box
Kicker ZR360 amplifier
Lightning Audio 1 farad capacitor
Other
Macewen White Faced Gauges/Shift overlay
A-pillar gauges (Phantom oil pressure, Air/Fuel)
180* thermostat
Window Tint

prscarf

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...FIA/17-45.html

Fuel Injection Service Parts
Pro-Jection TBI Adapter
(square bore to TBI flange)
Part #: 17-45