Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Okay guys,

here is the challange. Build a Natuarlly asperated small block chevy, that will produce 600hp at the flywheel.

Rules.

350 cu block. overbore max .060"

Crank, Any brand, off the shelf.

Rods, and brand, any length as long as pistons avalible for size.

Pistons. Any brand. Must be off the shelf no custom built.

Compression ratio. Unlimited, but must run with no fear of detenation on 110 octane Sunoco

Cam. No limits.

Valve train, any lifter, pusrod. Rocker arms must be stud mounted ( no shaft stlye.

Heads. Retail price limit of $1300. Porting allowed.

Induction. Cast alumimun single carb intake. Porting allowed.

Carb. Single 4 barral. Any size

Any tube size headers, open exhaust.


So, lets see those recipes!

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Hmmm the price limit on the heads will make this one difficult. Does that include used heads?

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Used if it is realistic.

Price does not include any porting that would be done.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

You didn't mention,are you financing this venture?If so,count me in!
Seriously,raise your cap on cylinder heads,unless you mean $1300 for bare castings.Otherwise,valves and springs can easily eat up more than half of that budget.Just my

camaronewbie

To start with, what about a 350 block from a boat?

Never saw as much use as any car, would have never been bored, or probably not even honed. Never saw "5 o'clock traffic". Would have only known "on" and "off" for 95% of it's life (no one ever putts in a boat, it's either go or no). Would have only ever seen real use maybe 9 months out of the year. Most people take far better care of their boats than their cars. It ran for 15 minutes pulling a skier, then it sat for 2 hours while everyone ate burgers.

Should be a fine option for a "virgin" block to build upon.

(I have one under the house I got for $200 that's just dying to have someone throw cash at it! )

Token

Why would you want to build a 600hp small block that's naturally aspirated on ANY kind of budget??? That's a recipe for disaster, and that's all.

F-BIRD'88

Your cylinder head price cap is too low.

A 350 or 383 using Brodix 18deg heads would easily reach this goal using custom built headers a solid roller cam (.700" lift 260-275Deg @.050) and 12.5:1 compression) Use 5.7" rods and custom 18deg flat top pistons. use a 3.75" stroke for 383ci Use a brodix 18deg intake and 950cfm carb. Expect to need to rev a 350 to 8000rpm to make this power usable. (premieum valvetrain.)

Starting with a 454 BB or a supercharged SB would be a lot lot easier and cheaper, could even run on street pump gas.

Why the price cap on the cylinder heads? Thats were the power is at.

84z28350

Im not too sure about using a boat block.

Yes it basically knows on/off but depending on the boat its out of and the driver it also knew idle for 5min then 5000RPM for 30min blasts!


So anyways back on topic...

You want about a $2500 600hp N/A 350, you must be on glue

Why in the world do that when you could have a mild BBC that will do it without breaking a sweat.

I could see you doing it on some sort of forced induction, then at least you got some eye candy on there not just a plain old ticking timebomb smallblock. A blower will get you up to that HP level relatively easily and like stated will be pump gas friendly. forced induction would probably make for a more spectacular rod throw too...


Sorry not trying to bash your ideas or anything, just stating my opinion. In the end its your car/motor and you can do whatever you like with it!

AlkyIROC

You've been reading to many magazine articles. It could be built but it wouldn't be very drivable. You "might" get one 1/4 mile pass before it self destructs.

To make it streetable and make it last, you're going to spend $5000+ and not many parts, if any, will be factory.

If you're going to use a SBC, then go big with an aftermarket block and build at "least" a 434 to give it a better chance of reaching your HP goals. Trying to make 600 hp with a small CID engine and NA just isn't reasonable no matter what parts you try to throw at it. Making 600 hp if you have to go to 8000+ rpm isn't reasonable unless your building a Comp Eliminator engine.

84z28350

I was thinking the same thing.

It would need some sort of stupidly big cam and have spin to the moon to get that kind of HP.

Probably do-able for a strip car but i dont think its possible for anything that will be street worthy.


All hail forced induction!!!



BTW stephen, what kind of numbers is the BB putting out now? and that scoop looks badazz!

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Never said it had to be streetable.

Never said there was a $2500 limit.

Never said it had to use factory parts.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

Then what's your deal with the heads?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Because that's his budget for his heads.

danziger

Stock LS1 (350fwhp) + 150 wet shot of nitrous. I know it's not N/A, but it would be as docile as an Accord until you needed it, plus get about 25 MPG.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

We're talking about a gen 1 sbc, not a gen 3. And that's still only 500 hp at the fly, somewhere near 450 at the wheels.

To realistically do this you'll need fully forged internals and GOOD 18 degree heads (way over your price limit for the heads).

Starting with a 454 aftermarket small block is much much more feasible.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Wow. Thanks for the flaming.

I was just speaking hypotheticly. I have no inttentions of building such motor at this time.

So, no, it is not "my budget for my heads"

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Funny, these guys thought it was pretty easy.

Build a 600hp naturally aspirated small block! - Pro-Touring.com

AlkyIROC

Ya, I like the scoop to. Best numbers are in the sig except I'm down for a rebuild from a thrown rod.

One more thing about a 600 hp NA 350. I suppose you want it to get 20 MPG also? The only way to make it practical is to use some sort of power adder. NOS will be the cheapest way to keep it within a budget. Blower or turbo will add about $3000 to the build to do the same thing.

Trouble with building a big SBC as a 434 or a 454 is that you're going to need heads to feed it so if anything, that's one area where there shouldn't be a limit. All the porting in the world won't make inexpensive heads large enough to feed a big engine. Heads make the engine's power. Everything else in the engine just say where that power is made. Some SBC heads with big valves and have intake ports in the high 200's will be needed.

The heads on my BBC are small with only 310 intakes. Some 345's would be better for this big engine. I also have 2.25/1.88 valves.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

Yeah,it's that easy,no problems to encounter there.Now lets see them provide PROOF.Any one of us can pull a combo out of our asses.

Neil B. from your other message board specced you out a 383.My 406 was damn near to a T what he specced out.Guess what?556 HP AT THE FLYWHEEL.Think a 383 will surpass that?Think again.And I had a HELL of a lot more than $1300 in heads.

There's a name for small displacement engines that make huge HP,Bottle Rockets.They make big noise,put on a show,but the next thing you know,POP!

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

If you don't want to be flamed,don't ask for ridiculous answers.

shaggy56

Yeah Joe Sherman has won numerous Engine Masters but he knows his ****. Im pretty sure he customizes everything from the ground up including porting his own heads. Joe was one of the first guys to build a 383 back in the early 70s so he has a whole lot more experience than most of us. He knows lots of tricks and has experience to build those winning engines which I doubt he would ever want to reveal to anyone. I mean who do you know that would still go over cnc ported AFRs because they still dont meet his criteria for a build.

AlkyIROC

My old 383 was pushing close to 450 hp to the wheels. It moved a 3400, or so, pound car into the high 11's before I blew up the engine but then that's not a 350.

Funny how none of them mention building a 350. They all want stroker cranks. They also all want bigger heads with no cost limit to the heads.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Wow, thanks for coming out then. Another Mcdonalds parking lot motor build & race here eh? What a productive thread, you managed to start bickering over a mythical motor.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Never said it had to be a 350. Notice crank, I did not speciffy stroke, so you could use a 4.00" stroke if you like.

I never said it needed to get good milage.

Man this site has really gone down hill with experts.

A simple,

" I do not feel it would be feasable to build that kind of power reliably"

Would have been a much more approprite response.

Apeiron

The real experts are out building real engines instead of dreaming about them.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

True, and all the self proclaimed experts hang out on the internet, and try to prove how much of an expert they are by bashing other people.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Also true.
.
.
So why are you asking this question, of all these bench racers on this forum?

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Just thought it was an interesting idea.

Sure, anyone can build a 400 hp small block, spray it and go fast. Its also pretty easy to build a 600hp big block.

So, I thought, lets see what it takes to build a 600 hp small block.

I figure there are a lot of good heads out there for small blocks around $1000.


And again, not going to build anything like this anytime soon. My stealth ram iroc with N2O, big block 1955 belair bracket car, and 67 firebird convert. build up are keeping me pretty busy right now.

11 Flat

350 block 30 over with a half fill... cnc work, indexing lifter bores...etc

Callies Crank 3.50 stroke

Howard’s Light weight 6 inch Rods

Je Pistons light weight .043 .043 3mm hell-fire ring package

14 to 1 compression ratio

Pro-Topline 14 deg heads fully ported, Jesel shaft rockers, Ti-valves, springs to match cam and Ti-retainers

Pro-Topline 2 piece 14 deg manifold fully ported

Erson Solid Roller 264/272 106 C/L 106 LSA .450 lobe lift

Moroso Oil pan with kick outs and trap door and windage tray, moroso vacuum pump, MSD ignition parts, Hooker headers, Magnaflow mufflers, ATI balancer, electric water pump, Anti Friction coatings on piston skirts...etc

Neil87Z28

What's your 406 combo? Sounds like a nice motor.

I agree he will need to spend more than $1,300 for the heads. For what it's worth, I said 215-220cc heads flowing 300cfm. There are only a few out there, such as the Brodix T1 M2's which are well over $2K.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

You could run a deck plate,huge stroke, huge sleave a 350 block...
huge bore and stroke which = big heads with very big valves and big power

but then you have a ton of money in a stock block..

boat blocks are the same thing used in trucks and vettes... with different freeze plugs.

neat idea that can be done but it would cost a ton .

Apeiron

Which are the same thing used in everything else, too.

ME Leigh

Essentially all stock blocks of the same displacement are the same. For 600hp your going to need a large motor and lots of rpm's.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

My 406 was a 6" rod motor,zero decked,J&E pistons,eagle I beams,11.3 compression,RHS alum. heads with extensive porting,2.05/1.6 Manley valves,K motion springs,and a Crower.670 solid roller.For induction I had a Super Victor,and an 830HP Holley,exhaling through Hooker Super Comps.