SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

I am in need of a new camshaft, a lobe was wiped out, I was going to get the $37 stock replacement from autozone, but I was told by a friend he recommended I look for the "RV Torque camshaft" because they improve, by a mild margin, low end torque, and fuel economy slightly. They have that one he referred to for $62, it says that I need a spring lift of at least 1.72" on the AZ website.

I can get the kit with all new lifters and lube and that RV camshaft, for $98, which I'm leaning towards getting. This is going into a stock 305 in an 82 trans am.

Question is, can I buy that kit, and not have to replace my springs? What is the stock lift on a 305 from 82?

Has anyone used this camshaft before and can say on whether or not is made a difference?

If I have to replace my springs I'll just stick with the stock replacement camshaft without new lifters (I already purchased the replacement lifter for the one that wore down) and it'll cost less. All the other lifters are in great shape and show no signs of wear, so do they need to all be replaced even if they look perfectly fine? I mean I compared the brand new one with the old ones and to my naked eye they look exactly the same, no visible wear or differences. If anything they old ones look better!

I'm not looking for any more work than I have to do right now, but if that camshaft will work with the same amount of work, well why not get it.

Thanks in advance for any help

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

If you're replacing the cam, you need to replace the lifters - no matter how good they look. They wear into each other, and if you put in a new cam, even with peachy looking lifters- they'll both self destruct before you can fill it up with gas again.

So only bother looking at cam and lifter kits, compare prices on those. The springs on that engine are 24 years old - they are shot, don't even both trying to reason this one, they're a wear part, and they're worn. Suck it up and accept that.

So now, new factory springs, cam and lifters - look at price range of that. Remember, that will bring you right back to the factor 145HP.

Then look at slightly better springs, cam and lifters. Nothing exotic, just aftermarket stuff. Compxe256, heck even the summit 204/214 would rock the kazbah compared to the little midget stock cam.
Compare price on those. That alone would bring you a lot closer to the 200HP barrier, 'specially if you've already done the exhaust on the car.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

I had no idea the springs wear that easily, the engine only has 69k miles on it and the valves seem to have really good tension on them. Do they sell cam, lifter, and spring in a kits all together? If so what do you recommend for noticable good power? Does this mean I will have to get a spring compressor? Do the valves need replacement too? This is crazy a lot for a motor with such low miles on it but I don't know the history of this car at all, all I know is that it sounded DAMN good before the lobe sheared itself off. I will have to take the heads off unless I do the little tricks described on some other threads for keeping the valves from falling out. Is it just the springs or do they need fittings around them too? If I am going to need to replace the springs, and I trust you to know much better than me, I might as well get good stuff now that the work has to be done. I just don't want to spend TOO much, as I don't have that much to spend.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Let me put it this way, if you were in my shoes (or anyone else who wants to chime in) and had a stock 305 with a bad camshaft, and were going to buy a new cam, springs, and lifters, and had a price limit of say $150, what would you recommend for the best reliability, and performance? I would love to see this crossfire perform, because as it stands, it wasn't very good (but it WAS misfiring)


Anyone in the macomb county michigan area bored and wanna help me do this? I will give you a free set of thirdgen back seats!


There is so much, someone just point me to a link to the best thing they can think of and I'll get that :P
Are all springs this expensive? I'm seeing like $50 for 8 of them, this is nuts.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Actually, let me return to my first questions.

Does anyone know anything about this RV torque camshaft, and will it work with stock springs?

Vader

If I were in your shoes, and had a budget limit of $150 for a cam kit, I'd look at my options.

Quite honestly, your signature is not going to be enhanced by the addition of :

AutoZone RV Torque Cam!

You can find cam kits within your budget allowance many other places. For a carbureted 1982 305, you might want to look at something like these:

http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...?number=100052

http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...umber=CL112431

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Or similar designs.

SSC

I love what Vader said.

The O-zone tq cam is a Melling MTC-1, at least thats the one every auto zone lists. The Melling MTC-1 is a great cam for an otherwise stock 305 it performs quite well and can yeild better fuel economy.

It will work with stock springs if they are good.

I suggest you get the cam and lifter kit along with a new timing chain and you will be fine.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

boom, $70 with lifters;
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
That's about as cheap as possible right there. You can go up a step to the 214/224 if you like.

The other $80 in that budget can go to springs. I use a fork style spring compressor ($5), or you can probably rent one from autozone for free. You'll probably need to change the oil, replace intake gaskets, and maybe flush the coolant if you like. That'll bring you over your $150 budget, but not by much.
I don't know the specs of a melling MTC-1 off the top of my head, but I don't think it's a very agressive cam. I think it's a stock setup for an "SBC" from the '70s. You know, the 350's that made 180HP? Yea, that rocket.

Just remember, it's only a matter of time before you want to be adding power to the motor, no sense in having to replace a part now with a stock one, then in 6 months replace it again with a high perf one. Just get the good one now.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

SSC answered my question perfectly, I really am serious about just wanting a stock cam, or slightly better than stock cam, I won't be adding any more to this car other than a paint job, and fix the t-top problems. The Melling MTC-1 is exactly the one I was talking about and yes I was told it yields better fuel economy and that is a big plus for me. I don't want to modify this motor other than MAYBE exhaust (the stock exhaust is very solid still) and that's it. It's going to be a daily driver, and fun on the warm days car :P
I am not doing any cam work again unless it breaks again, then again i'de probably sell the car because it's obviously got worse problems. I really couldn't care less what my sig says but yes, that would be funny. The Cam and lifter kit is the one I was looking to get anyway, and the timing set that comes with the chain, and two sprockets, and then the timing gasket. I DO need to change the oil as I have dumped probably 3 quarts worth of coolant in there by now, and I already bought two jugs of coolant. I do have more than $150 to spend but that would be my preferred max. I want to just get this damn car working again, 165hp is perfectly fine with me.

BTW it is not a carbed motor.

Thank you for the information though, you always get more than enough when you ask for help on here and that is a good thing.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Will that Crane energizer work with the stock springs? I have no idea about lift height and what all the numbers mean.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

The stock springs will let you go with a fair bit of lift, but they're so weak they'll float at 4000RPM. I don't even think they're good enough for another stock cam, but that's just my opinion, not what you want to hear.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

I am just figuring that with such low mileage, and the fact that the car sat for 12 years the springs are probably not as dead as you think they are. If they are not fully up to par, and I actually notice it enough to worry about it, I can change the springs out without having to do any more than take off the valve covers and spark plugs, so it isn't a big deal to me. I've been doing some research on google for MTC-1 and found a lot of good reviews for it being a really nice cam for low end torque and smooth running. I will just get it since I won't have to order it, I can just get the kit at autozone for $100. I know you know a lot more than I do and are just trying to help, and I appreciate it, but I think these springs still have some spunk left in them, I really don't want to deal with it right now, and if I rebuild the heads later on then I'll do new springs then :P
For now the engine will run, and run a lot better than it did when I got the car, so I'll be plenty happy.

Damon

Stock springs can actually take a fair bit of lift- more than the heads can without machine work in most cases. That's not the limiting factor with a performance cam. Stock spring just don't have the pressure needed to control the valves at higher RPMs with a performance cam- they're barely adequate for a stock cam.

If you are absolutely married to your stock springs then I'd second Sonix' cam recommendation, above. It's a very mild cam (think: "one notch over stock")with much less aggressive ramps than more modern designs from Comp, Crane, etc. If any mild "performance" cam will work with your stock springs, THAT will.

Guest

Thats the same as the MTC-1. It will work fine with the stock springs and at 69k miles they're fine.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

haha I am not "married" to my stock springs, I'm just married to laziness, the fact that it's cold, I'm poor, and don't want to do it if it isnt absolutely necessary, I was pissed off enough that I even had to do this cam swap, i've been through too many car problems in the past few months and I'm quite tired of it, I only got this car a few weeks ago. If the engine will run, on all 8 cylinders, with a fresh new cam and lifters, then cool, leave it at that, for now. I am not driving it hard or racing it, it's just a daily driver until the spring again. When it's warm I'm sure I'll get more ambition to further its performance. I had a 91 camaro RS, 305TBI, never had to do any work on it outside of what I did for fun, it never broke down on me, never had a camshaft go out, it had 145k miles on it and the stock camshaft and it smoked the tires like a dragster with just a little blip of the pedal (after a head swap and headers) so I know that the camshaft isn't the end all to performance. If I even got nearly as fast as that camaro I would be more than satisfied with it. Never should have sold her

Vader

There IS one benefit to keeping the stock valve springs, at least for a little while. They are designed to have 85# seat pressure, and by now may be tasked to make only 75#, but that's actually a GOOD thing for breaking in a new flat-tappet cam and lifters. If you notice a rev limitation later, you can always change the springs from the top as you mentioned.

Sorry I missed the part about the CFI, but it won't make a huge difference for cam selection within the range of LSA and overlap you are considering.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

good call on flat tappet cam life, forgot all about that....

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

that's good news to hear. I will probably continue working on it tonight to get this bad boy running again asap. i've been so lazy lately and driving around in my slowager, i mean voyager, but its roomy and comfy and is a lot better on the gas.

Streetiron85

The springs are simple compared to swapping the cam. Don't sweat the springs, you've got your work cut out for you with the cam and lifters. Do the springs later like the other guys said.

Damon

Don't forget the metal from that wiped cam lobe went somewhere..... straight into your oil! I've had pretty good success jsut putting a new cam into a motor with a wiped cam without rebuilding the whole thing. PRETTY good success.... not perfect.

Give that engine every chance to live with the new cam. That means fresh oil and filter at the same time you install the new cam. Also, throw a can of GM EOS in it- modern oils have lots of their anti-wear additives REMOVED from them. They actually don't do a good job with flat tappet cam motors any more (remember most factory motors have had roller cams for decades now). GM EOS puts the good stuff back in.

Plenty of assembly lube on the cam lobes and the faces of the lifters. Pre-lube the engine before firing. Overfill the oil slightly before firing up the motor to break in the cam, too. The cam and lifters are lubricated by the crank whipping oil up onto them. And, finally, do a proper break-in procedure running the engine at 2500 RPMs or more for 15 minutes when you first fire it up. Obviously, if something is not runnign right duringh break-in STOP, fix it, then refire the motor and finish the break-in. Change oil and filter AGAIN after break in (plus another bottle of GM EOS)- not next week, not after 500 miles.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Do you mean to unplug something so the engine can't start, and then crank it over a bunch of times to let it lube itself up first? I'm definitely going to be as careful as possible, I have the oil to change into once I'm finished because I have a LOT of coolant in the oil right now from taking off the manifold, and turning the engine over a few times. Where can I get GM EOS? What does EOS stand for? I will get one for every oil change from now on if that puts the good stuff back in. I only have oil though right now, once I get it fired up, I will turn it off and wait for the stores to open to finish the entire project, the car wont be driving out until it's good and ready, I will be using a t-shirt to filter the drained oil to inspect for pieces of metal, i am hoping to see it, and not have it still be inside the engine. I might have a buddy coming over to help me with it tonight so I hope for the best. I am not off work until 11 though

I know you are supposed to avoid synthetics at all cost when installing a new cam, but let's say a couple thousand miles down the road, I want to switch over. Is it recommended or beneficial for an older engine like this or should I stick with conventional?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I ran a Federal Mogul CS1014R in my TBI 305 in my Van with ported 601 head castings, headers, and a full exhaust system. It was pulling 190ish HP to the wheels and about 260 ft/lbs of torque. I ran the MTC1 in a 350 TBI. They are essentially the same cam with 204/214* duration @ .050, both have right at .425/.445" lift and spec about 275/285 @ .006. I have nothing negative to say about either cam. Both are to be installed at 106* ICL. The Federal Mogul stick has a 114* LSA angle to the Mellings MTC1s 112* LSA. The 2* wider LSA is why I used the federal mogul cam over the Melling in the stock chip (at the time) 305 TBI. Idle vacuum was 21 in/hg @ 600 rpm and the TBI setup was perfectly happy (the "DIVORICED TBI" should stay happy as well with either cam)

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Cool, I got all the parts ready, I forgot to get a water pump gasket but hopefully I can get away with it. Does anyone know if there a blocker plate I can buy and where from for where the mechanical fuel pump goes? I want to take it off and leave it off.

Red Devil

Why/how did you lose a lobe?

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

I have absolutely no idea, bad luck I hope? lol, I still should check to see if that lifter is "hydraulicing" that got wore down, maybe it seized and put too much strain on it. Or it could be the coolant that got in my oil when I put the crossfire on, but I didn't drive that long, and was just about to change the oil before the backfire out the intake started happening.
----------
What does EOS stand for? I am so confused, I need to find a bunch of bottles of this stuff.

Red Devil

Yea, you may want to actually find out why something fragged before you go and fix it just to do it again.

EOS, iirc, is engine oil supplement. Find a good 30w diesel oil like rotella or delvac and just have done, break it in and then use the same in a multigrade for the first 500 miles. then again for the next 1-2K. Then get a good synthetic like... um... Amsoil.

But that is jumping the gun IMNSHO. Find the problem first, then fix that, then replace the cam. If the cam got wiped from the coolant, chances are all your bearings aren't that far behind.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

thanks, informative, we'll see, if the motor blows up after the cam replacement, i'll just get a new motor, it's less work than rebuilding a motor. around here people don't sell amsoil and things like that, it seems like all these oil brands people talk about are not sold around here in michigan, or maybe I need to look at other stores except autozone and murray's

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

I am down to the timing chain, gotta turn the motor to line up the marks, some thing ive noticed that are different from the usual camshaft replacements. First the crankshaft pulley had 3 bolts around the sides, instead of 4, and second the oil pan didn't need to come down to get the timing cover off, but it might need to be dropped a tad to put it back on

I noticed that more than half the lifters, weren't "hydraulic", like they were seized, while the few others could flex, is that normal? Is it that maybe they were just filled with oil too much to be able to move? at first I thought thats why the one lobe wore down and the lifter wore, but almost all of them are like that, all of the new lifters work and flex though.

So now I just remove the sprockets, and timing chain, and get a new chain and sprockets, does the sprocket for the camshaft come with a new woodruff key? I also noticed my timing chain was quite wobbly, at least an inch of play, I am not familiar with how tight they are but that seemed really weak and loose to me, so I'm definitely opting to replace those parts. I didn't get any help tonight but I made some good progress. It's all uphill from here

Damon

3 bolts for the crankshaft pulley is normal for a SBC. Most of them are 3 bolts to hole the pulley to the front of the balancer. Then the one bolt in the center that also holds the dampener to the front of the crank snout.

Yes, you can wiggle the timing chain cover out without dropping the pan. Reinstall will require takign the first couple bolts out of the front of the oil pan on both sides and trimmign the "wings" on the inside of the timing cover a bit to reinstall.

Lifters are always solid when you take them out becuase they are filled with oil. Mushy ones are not good.

No, the timign chain does not come with a new woodruff key.

Your new chain will be quite a bit tighter than your old one, which is totally worn out. They can get that loose in a frighteningly short period of time. I would suggest a high quality replacement. Those $20 parts store cheapies stretch like salt water taffy. The cheapest good chain I've found is the Summit house brand full roller for about $35. The Cloyes true roller is also a very good piece but will set you back about $50. Always soak the chain thoroughly in oil before installation so it doesn't have a dry start (most chain stretch happens in the first couple minutes due to lack of lubrication/wear).

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Ok, am I supposed to take the key off the old camshaft? I thought I read that the pulley had 4 bolts, I must have been mistaken. Where can I get a higher quality chain that doesn't require me to order a new part from a website? Advance auto has a "Sealed Power Chain" and strangely, within the past two days autozone has changed their site, now the timing set that used to be $11 and normal stock that included a chain, and two sprockets now is $32 and special order, and when you search for just timing chain its "not required"
weird

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

the crank should have the woodruff key, and you can leave it there.
Should be no key on the cam. oh, that little nub? There's one on the new cam, no worries there.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

ok cool, I don't remember what one I was referring to, I was probably confused and tired. did not get to the store today so tonight if I work on it it'll just be cleaning, and taking out the old cam.

TPI

Nice plug-in, I picked up on that right away

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

alright the old camshaft is out, and the cam and lifters are soaking in oil while the dirty old parts like valve covers are all soaking in degreaser. I will take pictures of my current state and my extremely unorganized workstation as well as the old camshaft during the daytime for all to enjoy. That one lobe was almost rounded completely and another lobe was on it's way, the rest looked ok.


Can someone point me to a good timing set? I am not looking to order one from the internets, I want to get one at a local source. I found this http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=166&ptset=A and there are "performance" sets too that say "Except roller cam" so that should work right? Why does the one little sprocket have 3 keyways? doesn't it just need one?

There are these
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=166&ptset=A and
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...pe=166&ptset=A

but I think those might still need ordering

roachjuice

my stock springs are handling quite well.... had the cam in for 8 months now...i bring mine up to 5500 rpm atleast once a day.... yea thats the timing set you'll need... i got mine on ebay brand new for 15 bucks.....

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

So am i just looking for anything that says "double roller" chain? Does it matter if its .200,.222, .250 etc diameter?

Murray's has a timing set for $20 (as oppose to the cheap $10 generic one) that is normal stock, and they're gonna hold it for me from Clevite (never heard of it but of course they said its good) and its a double roller heavy duty chain and the way I figure it, it cant be worse than my overly outstretched factory chain :P

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

I have the camshaft in, and all the lifters and assembly lube on the proper pieces and points, but I have a question. I noticed that one of the lobes catches on a lifter, just slightly, while you're turning it by hand, just before it lifts it. I'm guessing it's just a small burr or imperfection on an edge that will wear right off during the break-in period, has anyone else experienced this?

I couldn't pull the crank sprocket off because I don't have a puller so I just cleaned everything and scraped gunk off everything and put back some parts that wont be in the way anymore, and organized my work area :P

jamon8

iTrader: (3)

go rent that puller

bad idea!!!

when your car starts on the first revolution, provided you do a good job on the valve adjustment, is worth the hassle of having to do it right

Streetiron85

It's doubtful that the lobe is scuffing the lifter in any way that you'd be able to feel when you're turning it by hand. It's probably scuffing somewhere else. Are you turning it with the timing gear on the camshaft?
One thing to check for is timing chain to block clearance. I had one that hit the block up at the top where the oil passage plug sticks out. I hear it's not uncommon. Check that with the timing chain on.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

Jamon: What of what I said are you saying is a bad idea?



Streetiron: I pulled each lifter out one by one, while turning the camshaft, once I found out it was still doing it I would go to the next one, until I happened upon the frontmost lifter on the passenger side, that when I removed it, it stopped making the noise and getting stuck. so I know it is this lifter. but it is so so so slight, however I am still far away from having it running lol. at first I was turning it by hand using the little nubby on the end, then I found it easier to thread in the sprocket bolts a little and use them for leverage. the sprocket hasnt been put on yet.

Streetiron85

If you're spinning the cam and the sprocket isn't bolted on the front, then it's possible that the cam is out of position while you spin it. One of the lobes from another cyl can be scraping against the lifter making it seem like that lobe has some sort of roughness to it. If you bolt the sprocket on there it will hold the camshaft in the right position, and then the problem should go away.
Don't forget to check your chain for clearance against the block.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

will do, thank you for the reply!

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

ok so this sucks, I am sitting here wondering why the hell the camshaft can just slide in and out with the sprocket and timing chain on, and i remember a guide saying to remove the "camshaft holding bolts" and I am reading this entire procedure on this thread https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...-ultimate.html

well it turns out I don't HAVE a camshaft holding plate, or the bolts, they might be in the box of parts I got but, wtf?!?! why didnt I have one? I wonder if this is why my lobe was wiped out!

seriously, pissing me off, but damn, I need to find one of those. I don't know of a parts store will carry something so obscure but I have to wait an hour till they open


nevermind, I asked some junkyards, and found out that the older flat lifter engines did not have this bracket, and that the camshaft gravitates toward the back of the engine. I did not have my engine nearby to compare it to those pictures to see if it had the bolt holes because I go home from my parent's house to use the internet, but if I did i would have saved some time.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

how awesome, the crank seal on the timing cover is permanent, so now i get to go get a new timing cover, yay!


edit: nevermind, I was just not hitting it hard enough

i'm trying to start it right now, with no accessories or radiator just to see if it fires up, but the battery is dead

soon as it fires up ill put the rest of it together, knowing the internals are ok

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

i think everyone has got sick of hearing me complain but ill post here as if it were some sort of repair diary, it's all together and fired up, had a few mishaps but they were easily fixed. for some reason, even though i had the dots lined face to face, when i put in the distributer pointing to cylinder 1, it wanted to backfire out the intake, so i turned it 180 degrees for the hell of it and voila it fired up, strange, but whatever, i think it's broken in now, i need trans fluid and to change the oil now, and pick up some of that EOS. still quite a bit of work ahead of me but that's just because its a POS car that was not well taken care of. at least it's running


I think I inhaled too many toxins, and lost a good amount of brain cells, i cant even think straight and I smell like extremely burned fuel

I humbly thank everyone who posted and helped me out, couldnt have done it without you guys! still the best website ever

Zed'er

When the dots are nearest each other (dot-to-dot) that is cylinder number 6 firing, not one. Use the dots to get the proper cam to crank sync, then rotate it until the dot is at the top of the engine, that is number one firing.

Glad to hear you have it running again.

SaiyajinXero

iTrader: (1)

yeah, I read that in someone's guide I downloaded, to point it to number 6, but that didn't work, it was backfiring out the intake, so I came back home, looked it up, found that thread that shifty wrote up, and he said point it at cylinder 1, so i tried that, no go, same thing, so i just turned it 180 degree, and it fired up lol, its confusing me too, but its out on the streets, and running really well. I am using the rotella 15w-40 that everyone recommends for flat tappets, i guess its working ok

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You REALLY should have gotten some proper break in lubricant. Shell cut down the Rotella zinc amounts a couple of years ago. It's pretty average now for zinc content. You need to get break in oil from a cam company or find an oil additive at the parts store that lists zinc in the ingredients. Zinc/ZDDP. One of the STP oil treatments will work in a pinch. I use Comp Cams' break in lube. I use half a bottle with every oil change just because Im paranoid, but during break in I would use a whole bottle. Crane made a break in lube also.

Just hope everything wore in together well... if you have lifters that arent spinning you'll know pretty soon.