VanHalen

So I was just wondering if anyone has tried using HHO in a 85-90 camaro, and what kind of experiences you had. For those of you who don't know what HHO is, it is a hydrogen like fuel injected into the engine for better MPG and more HP. It is made by running electricity through stainless steel plates and water, and is an onboard fuel system.

Gordiggz

haven't tried it on my bird, but I am in the process of working on an HHO cell. My goal is to get a small motor to start on gas, run on an HHO/gas mix and then get it to run completely on HHO.

RED_DRAGON_85

jesus christ...
not this.

look. i wont go into the details, but HHO (or for those with any common sense H20) is a myth and a waste of time and money.

without going into depth, this is how the system is supposed to work
the engine turns an alternator which generates electricity which electrolyzes water which goes into the engine

here is what actually happens
an engine running at 20% efficiency turns an alternator operating at an optimistic 80% efficiency which generates electricity which goes through 20 year old corroded wires operaiting at 90% efficiency into an electrolysis machine.
this electrolysis machine operates at around 50% efficiency and generates hydrogen gas and oxygen gas which is then fed into the intake...


here is the problem
your wimpy 80 amp alternator can only supply so much energy (80 amps to be exact ) and 80 amps of energy can only electrolyze so much water.
the ammount of hydrogen created ammounts to about a fly's fart in comparison to the ammount of air an engine takes in every second.
think about it...
your engine takes in 5 Liters of air every other revolution...
driving at 2000 rpms, thats 5000 liters in a minute.
aint gonna happen.

sorry.
this is a pet peeve of mine.

i just gave a presentation on this in one of my engineering classes last semseter so i am prepared to back up all of my statements with facts and names of professors and PHD's and can provide my sources...

VanHalen

Jesus crist. Not this. Another person going to argue and say its "not possible".Its cool if you disagree. I aint gonna argue too much because you CAN probably outsource me to a point. The fact is it works for me. And the alternator thing, if you have an 80 amp alternator, its always producing 80 amps, so if you only use 40, the other 40 are wasted. So the HHO isn't draining additional amps. And the HHO isn't burning by itself, it helps the actual gasoline burn fuller. I know it worked for me, and plenty other people.So I ask, have you actually tried it?

rgarcia63

My brother put one in his ford Ranger, it increased hwy gpm from 30 to 45. After driving 300 miles the engine started to lose power he couldn't make it to the top of overpasses without down-shifting.

The chemical added to the water used to increase the HHO efficiency had fowled the plugs and even eroded the ground straps (4) of one plug, something to do with the incapability of the additives and platinum.

I removed the system ,replaced air filter, the plugs, drained all the remaining fuel and refilled with a fresh batch ran some injector cleaner through it (there was also a fuel additive for this system,) now it had plenty of power but not like it was before the HHO install. I then replaced the O2 sensor, that brought back the 30 HWY gpm he was getting.

We believe this system will work if we make it larger to eliminate the need for additives and engage the system only under load, in gear and moving.

VanHalen

What chemical were you using?

rgarcia63

This is the Denise Lee HAFC which has been called a scam, which as you can see my brother didn't accept and bought one anyway.

It uses NaOH or KOH same caustic used in drain cleaners. I don't know what the fuel optimizer fluid is composed of.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Groan is right.
Red dragon has a handle on this.
It's called getting something for nothing - perpetual motion, etc... Not physically possible in the real world.
An 80A alternator is only putting out 80A when you put an 80A load on it. If you only put a 25A load on it, that's all it produces. When you put 80A of load on it, you bog down the engine, and burn more fuel to create that amount of power.

Just another electric supercharger principal here....

RED_DRAGON_85

look. ive done my research here.
bring up any claim and i can show how its not possible.
like sonix said. its perpetual motion. cant happen.

you take water, split it apart inefficiently, burn it at 20% efficiency, and get water.
thats a big circle.
thermodynamics should tell you that this is impossible.
sorry if i came off as a jacka$$ but im kind of tired of people saying "lets burn hydrogen"





as for the 80 amp alternator generating 80 amps and wasting the rest...
alternators only generate electricity when its needed.
if it only needs so much, then it only makes that much.
most alternators are not 100 duty anyway, so if they run at max output constantly they will burn up.


btw, who is groan?

VanHalen

I know about perpetual motion. read this from HHO forums

"Whoever wrote that, is 100% full of crap!

You are running your cars generator anyhow! The generators in most cases are able to produce nearly twice the electrical energy you car needs, with virtually every device working (radio, AC, winshield washers, power windows, convertable top, power seats, etc) To even include some seats that can warm, or even cool your ***, as you drive.

In truth, the system can drive most, if not all of these devices at the same time, but who ever uses more than several of them at once?

Further, you can even get alternators that have even greater outputs, if needed.

Your alternator, is not equipped with a switch, to produce 20% of its possible effiency, or 40, to 60% if you decide to drive with the seats bouncing up, and down, or front to back, while your winshield wipers scrape dry glass, in addition to the AC, and radio.

Truth is, the alternator has only one control, as so does your engine. It's either on, or it's off! Energy that is produced by the alternator, is either used, or wasted, as the alternator can not be turned off, while the car engine is running. While it's true you can dump energy it produces, you still use a portion of your fuel bill to turn the alternator.

The HHO generators are only using current that has already been produced, and that enery would ordinarilly, would go to waste, if it was not used.

The 2 or 3% suplimental HHO (by comparison to the whole volume of fuel burned), can deliver a bennefit of ten times that value, or greater, by causing a quicker, hotter, and a complete burn of all the fuel, gasoline, and HHO combined!

The quicker burn, also is responsible for less carbon build up in the cylinders, pipes, and catalytic converters. In fact, even though the burn is hotter, the speed of the hydrogen burn, causes the engine to run cooler!



Also, in producing HHO, it only takes two, or three percent supplimental HHO, to make your enginge burn three times hotter, causing you to completely burn the gasoline you were previously only getting a 40 to 60% burn from!"

and check out this forum http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?...ighlight=proof

Also, I know that it is causing some sort of burn increase. In the morning, my truck when cold, taks around 4 starts to start up and idle because I don't have my choke engaged. If I turn on my generator, let it build up some gas for about 15-20 sec, My truck will start and idle no problem.

I have no idea who Groan is...

Apeiron

You need to learn the difference between electric potential and electric current.

After that, some thermodynamics would be beneficial.

VanHalen

Cause I'm sure you guys are the experts...

Apeiron

You don't need to be an expert. A minimal background is all that's required to dismiss the claims of the alternative energy crackpots.

RED86Z28

Basic chemistry and physics concepts prove "HHO" to be a scam.

rgarcia63

RED_DRAGON_85

basically what we have is a case where VAN HALEN asked us a question, but really he just wanted us to back up the decision he had already made.

as for all of us being experts...
are you?

im an engineering student at Old Dominion and am proud to say that i have taken chemistry physics and thermodynamics.
once i graduate and take the FE exam i will literally be an EXPERT IN MY FIELD.

im not getting all high and mighty here.
look. if you want to get an HHO (water) generator for your POS ride and hope that it helps you out.
GO FOR IT

look. i went through the same thing when i found out about the ACETANE gas additive theories.
i claimed to have "done all the research" and "this stuff should work".
in reality i was duped by clever marketing.
and i was made fun of for it.

i say, go for it.
if it gives you an extra 20 MPG then good for you, but the truth is that your extra mileage will no doubt come from your driving habits and "funny math" on your part.

go ahead.
prove every automotive engineer in the world WRONG

IrocZ_85

iTrader: (1)

I would have to agree here. If it was really was that easy, every new car would have an HHO system, but they don't. Trust me, if the Big 3 could slap this on an SUV and increase its MPG drastically for as little as these kits sell for they would be all over it, especially now. I saw one kit that said part of installing it was to increase your tire pressure, well guess where that mileage increase really came from.....


Just to comment on a previous post, if your car it only burning 60% of the fuel going into the cylinder, its running pretty poorly

Gordiggz

I feel the tension. For my sake, let me say a few things before people here think I'm a crackpot:

1.) I'm working on it as a hobby during the winter while my firebird is put away.
2.) I admit that I have no experience in engineering, chemistry, thermodynamics, physics or any other scientific fields.
3.) I am interested in learning more about all of the above, what better way than to try theories hands on!
4.) I'm using a VERY small engine with a very unpractically sized alternator vs. the engine I'm trying to run. The alternator will probably use at least 3 of the 5 HP I would potentially make (these numbers are not exact, just meant to give an idea of what i mean).

Now let me say this:
Is it a scam? I think the real answer to this question is a blurred line. Is it impossible? Maybe by our understanding today it is. People used to think the world was flat, and Colombus didn't fall off the edge. I'm not trying to be a conspiracy theorist either here, but it would behoove many, many powerful people if this was impossible. Are we all being duped, even Red Dragon the literal expert? Probably not. BUT, if we all just accepted things the way they were and never experimented, nothing would change and no improvements would be made towards efficiency, productivity or the like. If my little experiments work out on a 5hp lawnmower than great. It doesn't mean it's completely practical, but neither was a computer that took up an entire room, and now we all have one that fits in a briefcase.

Basically, yeah, 100+ dollars for a PVC pipe filled with metal plates is a scam. But the idea could go somewhere. Maybe today it takes alot of amperage to split water molecules, but perhaps refining of equipment could create some sort of working prototype. So there's no need to bash the concept completely.

Apeiron

It took hundreds of the greatest scientific minds in all humanity thousands of years of observation and experimentation to bring our understanding of science to the level it's at today. You could try to reproduce it all yourself, but it would be much more productive to study their efforts first, and then conduct your experiments.

Yes

No, it's impossible by virtually any possible understanding that describes the observable universe. It's just that fundamental.

Don't confuse common knowledge with scientific thought. Uneducated common people ignorant of science believed the world was flat. Rational, scientific minds were exploring the possibility of a spherical earth as early as the 6th century BC. By 240 BC, we even had Eratosthenes making an attempt at calculating its diameter.

You don't need to jump off a bridge to find out it hurts when you get to the bottom. Some things are perfectly self-evident with sufficient prior knowledge.

It doesn't take a lot of amperage to split water molecules today, it takes a lot of amperage to split water molecules period, always and forever. The merest studying of electrochemisty at even a high-school level will make it immediately apparent why.

VanHalen

I obviously don't have all the knowledge you guys do. But honestly, just saying it's impossible is so much different than experiencing it being impossible. Through all the math and logic you want, but I have got gains. Is it because of my driving habits? doubt it, I still burnout all the time, I just got done doing donuts for a good half hour yesterday. I guess the original question was has any TRIED hho in a camaro, and obviously noone HAS because everyone is just calling it a scam. And also, I have seen plenty of people show PHYSICAL proof it works. NOT ONCE have I seen physical proof showing it doesn't, just a lot of talk and a lot less doing. And it seems everyone who claims it doesn't work has to be a complete a hole about it.
----------
And IDK what makes you have to be an ***, but I guess thats just how you roll. If you don't have an answer to the question"has anyone tried HHO in a camaro?" THen stop commenting on this thread. And I dont need backing up on a decision made, because I haven't even done it in a camaro. So honestly whats with the negativity and calling me out?

Guest

That is a bunch of utter nonsense, the entire quote.

Apeiron

No. You haven't.

TheScaryOne

iTrader: (3)

Throw one of them thar Tornaders in there. Get hyper gas mileage!

RED_DRAGON_85

hey gordiggz, one thing that i can tell you is that if you try and generate the hydrogen with a typical electrolysis process (the plates submerged in water) it wont work.
however, i have heard of this method that uses ultra high frequency sound to cause the water to split.
im not sure, but i think that this would be a better route to look towards.

the thing is, even if you manage to get a lot of extra mileage from the engine, you have to look at the whole picture.
you say you are using a 5hp (esimate) motor.
the alternator you are using takes up around 2 of that.
most lawnmowers i have used need all the power the engine generates to cut grass.
maybe we have thick grass or something, but mine is always bogging down (i have an 8.5 hp self propelled. the self propel feature uses up a lot of power)
so you have to take into account the fact that even if you make hydrogen, is the system still self sustaining?


a friend of mine tried something very similar but he used a geo metro engine with a (i believe) 250+ amp alternator.
in the end, he had a 10 gallon tank in the back seat filled with water and plates.
the car needed 3 or 4 batteries to even keep running.
this is because the power required was more than the engine could supply.
and this was just running the engine in neutral.
no driving around.

give it a shot, but keep that in mind.

VanHalen

Thanks for telling me what I have seen....

I no for one that if your run electricity through stainless steel plates, you get some sort of explosive gas. I would say it's hydrogren, but IDK for sure, because if I say that you guys will jump all over it. I do know that when you hold a lighter up to it, its really loud and explosive. And there is a guy right here in Kansas who is doing something like HHO and giving people way more MPG. It was in the media and paper and some higher profile people did it. I can probably find an article...

Apeiron

That's right, you do get a gas. It's hydrogen and oxygen, not the magical "HHO" gas of pseudoscientific fancy which does not exist. It will burn quite readily when you put an ignition source to it. The problem is, it takes more energy to separate hydrogen and oxygen from water than is released when you burn it. It doesn't matter how you try to do it, whether it's with heat, electricity, ultrasound, or whatever.

Thermodynamics in a nutshell:

The First Law of Thermodynamics: You can't win, you can only break even.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics: You can't break even.

Hydrogen also contains a small fraction of the potential that gasoline does, so even when you build a car to run on it, you need much, much more hydrogen to make the same power as you would with gasoline. A few little bubbles aren't going to do squat. It's not a synergistic effect, either. There's no magic increase from burning them together that somehow releases more than the sum of the energies you'd have if you burned them separately.

RED_DRAGON_85

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
i was about to say that.
i put the two laws into one though.

Thermo says you cant win. not only cant you win, you cant break even, you cant even come close.


funny thing is, its the truth.




heres one for you to chew on for a while.
what is gasoline, besides a liquid?
a HYDROCARBON.
this means that gasoline is made up of carbon and hydrogen.
a good AVERAGE formula for the composition of gasoline would be that of octane, which is C8H18.
This means that for every molecule of gasoline, there are 18 hydrogen molecules.
water is H2O, which means that there is only 2 molecules of hydrogen per molecule of water.

in practical terms, that is why gasoline burns and water doesnt.
yes, this is a gross oversimplification, but it works.
the point is that there is more hydrogen in a gallon of gasoline than in a gallon of water.
which is why electrolyzing water into hydrogen and oxygen will never be feasable.

Gordiggz

This is what I have been focusing on actually. I'm not trying to be one of those guys making steam and trying to burn it. Also, I don't plan on this setup ever being self sustaining, when I first mentioned it running purely on hydrogen alone, I mean with an external source of power in addition to the alternator.

I think you guys think i'm being one of these free energy nutjobs. I did fail to mention the fact that i'm willing to plug my setup into the wall (which is a critical point).

Basically, what I'm looking mostly to do is get a small engine to idle and run on this gas through timing and mixture adjustments until it just runs with no gas. The alternator will create some power I can charge a battery with for starting as well as simulate an actual load, but the actual splitting will be done from a 120V supply. I was going to try both the frequency and plate system, but judging from what red dragon has to say, I'm going to concentrate on just the frequency method first (if a guy with a masters in the topic says it might be possible, I will listen to his opinion).

Also, Apeiron, my amperage comment was based on the frequency method red dragon mentioned. Maybe it's best not to rudely pick people apart at a message board at which you are a moderator. There is a big difference between constructive criticism or statements of fact and being just plain rude to people. This really isn't apprpriate for what I think is the most informative automotive forum today. This discourages people from learning new things and asking questions, which is counterproductive to the goals that I thought TGO had.

Guest

If you're trying to approach this from an intelligent standpoint, how are you going to reconcile the fact that the laws of thermo have never been violated? Thats what you're planning on doing. If that was at all possible, it would be EVERYWHERE. Even the frequency use doesnt return more than was put in, as thermo laws show and as has been typical with trying to use water for energy. You're just following a pipe dream. In short, water is not a fuel.

Apeiron

That's a better goal than trying to build an on-car hydrogen system. You're going to need an impractically huge volume of hydrogen, though. Hydrogen gas is a poor fuel for internal combustion engines. The state-of-the-art for hydrogen power right now is generation of electricity in fuel cells, with storage in metal matrices.

Yes, there's a big difference, but just because someone tries to educate you doesn't mean that they're being rude.

chesterfield

The reason water doesn't burn is because its already been "burned." When heat is introduced to hydrogen a chemical reaction occurs which bonds the hydrogen atoms to oxygen atoms forming water. water doesn't burn because its already water.

1991Camaroz28

i like running my car on gasoline like it was designed for. my neighbor has hho thing in his honda and he tells me how its so good for his car. strange... i can't figure out how having a container full of moldy water connected to my intake is a good idea.

spudz

Basically its this......if it wasn't snake oil......everyone would have it.... Stop trying to make your camaro fuel friendly and put a camshaft in it or something that makes it more awesome instead of lame.....dont be a puss. Also, Alternators got these neat dealys called voltage regulators....if they kicked out full amps all the time they would overheat and burn up... Second.. I in fact do like that you are trying something that most "including me" tells you not to.. BUT you need to take some constructive criticism from people and stop acting like you know it all.. because if you did, you wouldn't be asking stuff here...

VanHalen

I'm not saying I know it all, and the reason I'm kind of mad is one, your calling me a puss, two what is wrong with being eco friendly. A tight camaro wont matter if your dead. Three, some of the first words were quote"jesus crist. Not this." Not exactly CONSTRUCTIVE. so get off me, and stop trying to act like YOU know it all, because obviously your not even close. Like I have said, If you don't have an answer to the question, stop commenting on this thread.

Gordiggz

I could definately see how you thought I meant trying the BS hydrogen-on-demand stuff. Maybe in 50 years when battery tech makes leaps and bounds it would be possible (while also rendering it unneccessary). Appreciate the info. Since you're obviously pretty well educated on the topic, if you were to screw around with some alternative fuel tech in the backyard, what would it be?

Was interested in the waste veggie oil ideas, but diesels aren't nearly as cheap to come by as little gas motors.

I'm trying to stay pretty neutral, but mpg doesn't make a car lame. When my new motor is done it should be around the 350 hp/400 ft. lbs. (at crank not wheels) range with about 26 mpg. Efficiency is the sign of a good combo tuned properly.

I think this is a fun idea to play with for sure. Not saying I'm solving the worlds oil crisis in my backyard or disproving the laws of thermodynamics.

And yeah the moldy water jugs in the trunk with a tube going in AFTER the air filter has to be a bad idea, if only for the sake of longevity. (Not that it's a great one before it either). I know a kid who's dad is really into the in-car cells and reported a 3 mpg increase (which I assume would be from selective driving habits).

spudz

nothings wrong with it.... I'm just a jerk and voice my opinion loud. and I dont know it all.... I dont know **** about this HHO crap.... BUT I do know that someone one day will figure it out and THEN it might be an alternate way to go...But its not now and unless you got a fortune to develop it....then you better let the big boys figure it out.

ljnowell

So if you know so much, shut up and do it. Or give up and live with your hippy friends.

RED_DRAGON_85

hey gordiggz, i hope im not the guy with the masters...
lol.

i am not basing the vibration method thingy on any scientific fact, merely what i have heard in various places.

jim91gta

Can any of you who say HHO is not possible explain the Scorpion?

http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/index....d=20&Itemid=90

Guest

Thanks for reviving this nonsense.

They said it best themselves:
In other words, there is no running vehicle.

RED_DRAGON_85

hahaha
this is such bs.

jim91gta

That is a standard disclaimer put out by ALL Publicly traded companies.

Actually it is a running Vehicle.
Gov. Arnold drove it and Speed channel Supercars Exposed was there with the video.

1:17 is where coverage starts

http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/index....dia&Itemid=114

Guest

Yes, sure it runs as stated on their website. The world's first and only perpetual motion machine.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Threads like these warm my heart. It's nice to see some well-grounded scientific discussion.

If it were that easy to separate hydrogen and oxygen, we would have no trouble switching over to a hydrogen economy and getting away from oil for a lot of things. But unfortunately separating hydrogen and oxygen takes a LOT of work and the energy required to do it the main reason we dont have hydrogen fuel stations everywhere.

The reason gasoline works so well is because, for the most part, it's free energy. You just pump it out of the ground and refine it.