jdumas

I just bought a 1985 Iroc that has a TPI motor with 72K on it. The car has been stored in a garage for the past 14 years and hasn't been on the road since 1993. According to the seller, it was put into storage due to the fuel pump going bad. Aside from testing (and most likely replacing) the fuel pump, I plan on changing the oil, coolant, and spark plugs prior to trying to starting it. I will also be draining and cleaning the fuel tank while it's out of the car. Is there anything else I should be checking or changing before I try to start it? Should I turn the engine over before re-attaching the fuel system to lubricate things a little first?

Thanks.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

you may want to pull the injs and have them cleaned/flowed.
yes, its a good idea to lube the motor.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Can you turn it over by hand ok?

jdumas

Haven't tried to turn the motor over by hand at all but, judging by the overall condition of the rest of the vehicle, I'm guessing (hoping) it would turn over okay. What would be the best way to clean/flow the injectors?.....I've never done that with a TPI motor.

Vader

You might want to search the archives for threads like this:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ince-96-a.html

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

why don't you try then. Make sure it is not locked up from oxidation. If it is then are several things you can do to unlock it. Just a thought.

garyk1970

tip of the week.....

priming the oil is best,but in a f body its a pita.....fill engine completely,yes all the way to the top of the valve covers with oil.let it sit for a few minutes.will take several gallons of oil.
drain oil .refil to correct 5 qrts. turn engine over with plugs out to clear oil and avoid hydrolocking.install new plugs.start engine,yes it will smoke so, do first start outside.
this will eliminate a dry start especially for cam.

58mark

iTrader: (3)

what a timely thread. I'm getting a engine tomorrow that hasn't been started in 10 years...thanks!

ZZ3 Z28

Filling the engine with oil? I don't know about that idea. I can't say that I've ever heard of that one. Try this.

Change the oil and oil filter. Don't forget to fill the new filter with oil; don't put a dry filter on the engine.

The next thing you'll need to do is get out all the old gas from the tank and the fuel line. Syphon out the tank with a hand pump if you can. Disconnect the fuel line and turn the key on, not start, if you have an electric fuel pump, to push the old gas out of the line. Get a couple of old cans or something to hold the old gas in. Your going to want to change the fuel filter once now when you start and then again after the car has been run a while since dirt and stuff will be pulled/pushed out of the tank. Don't worry about 'varnish', new fuel will disolve that problem. Or you can get some fuel additive to help take care of the varnish thing. Lucas Oil makes a product for this. When you're done getting rid of all the old gas, pour in a little fresh gas. Keep pumping until you are sure that nothing but fresh gas is being pumped out. You'll know that because of the smell of freesh gas.

Before you turn the key tos tart you'll need to lube up the cylinders with some regular oil or something. Don't worry about smoke when it does start, it will eventually disappate. I have a carb engine so I removed the plugs and shot some Pennzoil into each cylinder to lube the piston rings. Then get a half inch socket wrench and turn the crank by hand. After ten years it may take an initial oomph to break it loose. Don't worry about breaking the bolt off the crank; if you break that bolt, then you're Superman. You shouldn't need a long breaker bar to turn it either. Crank it manually around a couple times to make sure the lube you squirted in lubes it well. When facing the front of the engine, the engine should spin from passenger side to driver side.

Now that you've taken care of the cylinders you need to circulate oil throughout the engine by using a drill. Remove the distributor--you may need to remove the hood for clearance--and insert an attachment that is particular for GM engines. It is a long rod or shaft with an attachment that when spun cranks the oil pump and circulates the oil. GM, FoMoCo, and Mopar engines all have different diameters for the distributor to fit in. Each attachment is particular for this diameter and only a GM attachment will fit a GM engine, etc. On the bottom of the distributor is a gear, obviously, that gets spun when the cam turns. What you're doing is using the drill to spin the cam that spins the oil pump, in so many words.

When you've done all this, and believe that everything you've done is okay, put it all back together and turn the key. If there is fresh fuel it should start right up just like the last time you did that. It's gonna smoke a few minutes until all that lube you squirted into the cylinders gets burned out. Don't be surprised if you have some sort of leak or something unexpected happens. After a decade anything is possible. After a few miles or so, maybe a couple fuel tanks full of gas, then change the fuel filter again.

If you've done everything correct, and the engine was adequately primed with oil, it shouldn't smoke. Cross your fingers. Hope this helps and good luck.

ZZ3 Z28

Summit Racing has an oil pump primer tool for GM small blocks, part # SUM-901010 for less than $20.00.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SU...n/?prefilter=1

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The cheaper one without the collars works just as well. Just fyi... You'll need to turn over the engine to get oil to other parts of the valve train. Not every lifter is going to be lined up with an oiling hole, but I'd prime it, turn it over, prime it,... and then I might oil the cylinders and then pump the oil back out by turning over the motor by hand...

but honestly... after priming it I'd probably just turn it over and go.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

best thing to do to an engine that been sitting for years is pull the spark plugs, squirt some oil in the cylinders, then turn over by hand a few times. the prime tool is great if you can get it in there (i have the one from summit). an oil change is manditory before trying to start it.

ZZ3 Z28

Here is what I found after trying a start up after 13 years. This is an in-tank electric fuel pump that I installed when I put in the ZZ3 package. So today after doing all the oil pump priming and other odds and ends to make the car ready to turn the key, we couldn't get fuel pressure to the carb or even to the in-line fuel pressure gauge. We never had more than one or two pounds but we could hear the fuel pump running. Meaning the fuel pump was working.

Ah hah! But it wasn't the fuel pump. We dropped the fuel tank and found the rubber hose connection between the pump and the fuel line was broken, dissolved, melted, whatever you want to call it, it was no longer hooked up. See the red circle part of the photo. No connection between pump and line, no fuel pressure.

So tomorrow I'll be off to the local speed shop for a new fuel pump any way, might as well replace it since the tank is laying on the garage floor. A new sock and gasket will be in order as well.

This just goes to show you that after an extended period of time, anything can go wrong. That couple hour job you thought was going to be a nice Sunday afternoon cake walk turns into a multi day disaster.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

atleast you dropped the tank instead of cutting a hole in the back of your car to "save time"

jdumas

OK....Finally got the car this weekend and had the chance to try and turn the motor over by hand. No good.... I will be squirting oil down the spark plug holes tomorrow but was wondering if there was anything else that I should try along with that? How long should I let the oil (or whatever else might be suggested) soak in the cylinders before I try cranking it by hand again? Should I try to give the motor a quick turn with the starter? (kinda reluctant to try this...). Based on the receipts that the previous owner provided me with, I believe this car on has 73K on it and I don't want to mess it up by being impatient.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

yeah, let each cylinder soak up with some kind of penetrant , and the best way really is to install the engine and then get some one to tow you and then pop that clutch! It will start!

ZZ3 Z28

Thanks for high-five Travis. There is no saving time when it comes to things like this. Do it right or don't do it all.

The other thing I found when I dropped the tank was the felt-like padding on the straps was a little rotted away so I'll have to come up with a fix for that. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Hey JDumas,

You said you tried cranking the engine by hand. You used a wrench on the crankshaft bolt, correct, and not clicking the starter? Did it not move at all? With all of the plugs out, there should not be any compression holding the engine back. Cranking an engine with the plugs inserted can be difficult. Doable but difficult.

What most likely happened is the engine is dry, no oil lubing things up so it is stuck, for a better term. Is it siezed up? Good question. That's bad all the way 'round. It very well could be siezed up depending how it was stored.

I would suggest that you let the stuff you squirted into cylinders sit for a couple hours, and try again. Try to crank it by hand before you resort to other measures like clicking the starter. If the engine is siezed and you click the starter you could break the starter gear, and/or damage the flex plate, and then you're really in a bind. Now you're replacing all that and rebuilding the engine, too.

If I was certain the engine was siezed up, then I would just pull it out and rebuild it. I know that's easy for me to say but some times the easy way isn't the best way.

midias

Careful wrenching on the balancer bolt on a seized engine you may want to consider an engine turning tool.

http://www.amazon.com/Proform-66782-.../dp/B000CCG1DQ

On a side note get it running this winter and come down and visit me in Rochester we can try to get a meet together.

Z's r Best

When we got my son's 91 RS it had been sitting outside with no hood and a pretty well disentigrated poly tarp over the engine for several years.

The engine was locked up (we thought the starter was bad at first). We pulled the spark plugs, squirted several squirts of new motor oil into each cylinder and let is sit for a couple of days. It had not front end on it and only one fender so we hooked a tow strap up to the truck, pushed the clutch in and pulled it across the yard. The first couple of times the rear wheels just slid across the grass. The third time the engine broke loose. We stopped, put the plugs in, hooked the wires up and it fired right up. He drove it several months before a rod started knocking when he revved it past 4,000 rpm so we pulled the 305 and built a nice 327 for it. Still running with the 327.

ZZ3 Z28

Interesting little tool there. But I need some help in figuring what exactly to do with it. It looks like it bolts in to several of the bolts instead of just the center one, yes?

jdumas

I finally got the engine unstuck after letting oil sit in the spark plug holes for a few hours (I had forgotten how fun getting to the plugs is....). I was able to turn the engine over a little by hand and took the plunge by hooking up the battery, pulling the fuel pump fuse, and turning the key. It seemed to turn over fine (did it 3x for about 5-10 seconds each time). Now come my questions:

1 - Do I wait on changing the oil (again) until I've at least turned the engine over several additional times or even got it running for a few minutes?

2 - The radiator was down to the halfway mark. Should I just top it off for now or completely flush the system?

3 - Anything else I'm missing?

As I said in an earlier post on this thread, the previous owner said he parked it because the fuel pump went. I know there is a fuel pump relay as well. Is there a convenient way to test both of those components before I go ripping apart the car?

Thanks!

58mark

iTrader: (3)

fuel relay is cheap, and easy to change. it's located on the firewall on the drivers side. always change that first

I would assume you would want to pull the tank anyway to get all the old, bad gas out of there...

ZZ3 Z28

You're going to need to jump the oil pressure switch, if you have one, into fooiling the fuel pump thinking oil pressure is satisfied so the fuel pump will turn on. Disconnect the fuel line some where under the hood so gas can be safely squirted into a jug or some type of canister. On my '86 the oil pressure switch is located at the top rear of the intake manifold right next to the distributer. Disconnect the wire connector and use a paper clip. The key will have to be turned to the the run position, not start.

It will behoove you to have a second person to help do this. Making sure fuel is going into a canister safely and turning the key to the run position while the oil pressure switch is jumpered can be dangerous if you attempt yourself. Have a fire extinguisher handy, also.

You should hear the fuel pump whine in the tank, if it's working, and you should get fuel into the canister, if it's working. If you don't get any fuel pressure, or hear a whine from the pump, then it's time to man up and drop the tank.

Drain the rad to get the sediments out and start with all new anti-freeze/coolant or whatever it's called nowadays.

Anything else? We'll cross that bridge when you come to it.

midias

You got it then you can slide a socket over it or just use a 1/2 inch extension. Sometimes the balancer bolts get weak after 20 ish years and can shear off while rotating a stubborn engine. :0

Glad you got the motor freed up it is always nerve racking doing that at least in my experience with old bikes.

Good luck with the project.

olveracm

Someone did that in my firebird cut a hole -_-

88TransAmGuy

iTrader: (3)

Mine sat for 10 years before it was started. All mine needed was a new starter and new spark plugs and oddly enough it ran despite all the rust and grime.The MANY problems came after it was driven.Expect rust in the cylinder walls and a lot more.We just ended up swapping the motor

ZZ3 Z28

I guess you could do that but why cut up a perfectly good car if you don't have to. The biggest obstacle in my case was removing part of the exhaust around the axle since it was rusted tight. After getting around that, dropping the tank was relatively easy. Plus with the tank out you can empty it and remove any foreign particles, dirt and junk.

With the tank out I was able give the tank and the hold down straps a coat of paint. I also replaced the anti-squeak insulation since that was rotted. I also gave the heat shields a shot of hammered paint. Putting the suspension back in place took about an hour. Everything was torqued to specs and now I'm good to go.

jdumas

I finally got the car started tonight. It has a knock that sounds like it's coming from higher in the engine than lower. I will not make a fool of myself and act like I know more than I really do about the internals of this engine but I'm guessing it sounds like it could (possibly) be a stuck lifter (not that I know what that would sound like)? Can anyone confirm this or tell me how to figure out where the knock is coming from and what if may be? Also.....what should I do next in bringing this engine back to life? The car idled and the throttle was lightly "goosed" for only about 5 minutes because I was concerned about the knock. Hope I didn't do anything to screw myself over.... Any help appreciated!

SDTransAM

iTrader: (5)

Take the intake manifold off, inspect it. Atleast take the valve covers off, and turn it over, watch to see if the rocker arms are moving.

Best bet is to tear the engine down, re-ring it, and do a rebuild.

grumpyvette

Im assuming its upper engine noise which is frequently a sticky lifter or worn rocker or badly adjusted rocker, and assuming you have good oil pressure and the engines not running hot ,the first thing ID suggest is doing a oil and filter change to remove oil sludge and use a pureolator or wix oil filter or something of similar quality,and adding at least one full quart of marvel mystery oil, and two won,t hurt to replace some of the standard 10w 30 oil you normally use, in the engine, its just a high detergent oil that tends to free up stuck lifters and lube rockers very effectively, after running it for an hour or so it should significantly reduce the noise,Id also add a can of fuel injector cleaner to the fuel tank even if its a carb or injected engine as it tends to dissolve crud in the fuel system, if the ticking sound starts to get worse Id pull the valve covers and try adjusting the valves and inspecting for a busted valve spring, if its just a stuck lifter or rocker ball it should smooth out over the first 30 minutes as the marvel mystery oil solvents dissolve crud

ZZ3 Z28

I agree that there will be problems other than the actual starting of the car. I had to rebuild the Holley fuel regulater on mine, which was no big deal really. The new diaphram cost less than ten bucks. The big hit was the leaky heater core. I was going to replace the carpet any way but this moved up the time frame. It also gives me the opportunity to install some new heat shielding as well.

Since my Camaro is not a DD, I am not in the same boat as some when it comes to this problem. But letting a Camaro, or any car for that matter sit for so long one should always prepare for the worst.

bhewi

I just went through this with my 91RS. After changing all the fluids, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, fuel pump and lubing it up it actually started right up. Smoked like mother though....lots of white smoke. It got a little better after a couple days but still looked like I was driving the car from Spy Hunter (yeah I'm old lol). LS1 swap is in the works now, so all that work for nothing.

At any rate make sure you check the fluids frequently. I found that my coolant got really murky (a rust/dirty color). I had to flush it 4 times before I was satisfied that it was going to stay clean.

jdumas

I finally was able to actually drive the car around my neighborhood today (drum to disc brake swapping issues took longer than expected). The motor still has the "knock" which I'm hoping is a valve issue and not something lower in the motor. The car was VERY sluggish and sounded like it wasn't firing on all cylinders although it seemed to idle ok. I'm thinking it may be fouled plugs so my question is, given the generous amount of motor oil I squirted in the plug holes to free the motor, will the spark plugs need to be pulled/cleaned or will they eventually "unfoul" themselves (if that's even possible) if I keep running the motor? Apologies if this sounds like a stupid question but we all know getting to the back plugs is a real p.i.t.a. and I'd like to avoid it if possible.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

only way to tell if the plugs are fouled is to pull them out and look at them. plugs dont "unfoul" themselves.

jdumas

Ya...kinda knew that (wishful thinking). Crap......

bitchin_buick

I may have missed it but didn't see any mention of replacing the fuel filter? I had a 73'Charger that sat for a while. You wouldn't believe the rust I shook out of that thing......

Rough or not glad you got her fired up..... Fuel filters are cheap and easy to replace not saying at all this will remedy your problem but just something to definitely consider if you haven't already done so.... Mike

Edit: Fuel filter was previously brought up.... Oooops!

ZZ3 Z28

Let me add a bit here from what I did after not starting for 13 years. I replaced the plugs which were actually fine but I changed them any way since I had them out to shoot some oil in the cylinders. When it started only a little smoke came out the tp and it cleared up sooner than I expected. I checked the timing and it was off by 4 degrees due to an update for the ZZ3 crate motor. It runs nice and smooth, sounds good, nothing odd out of the tail pipe. I would suspect that the oil you squirted in is long gone. Did it foul the plugs? I don't know about that for certain. Is running rich the same as oil in the cylinders? I'd have to ask my engine guru that one. So my suggestion would be double check the timing, too.

jdumas

Pulled the plugs tonight...pretty black and oily......cleaned them up and reinstalled them. Car started right up and ran alot smoother (only idled it). Checked the timing and it was 6 degrees before TDC so that checks out. I'll take it for a drive tomorrow to see how it performs under load.

Now to figure out where that knock is coming from......

jdumas

Took the car for a short drive and it's still sluggish. Right front caliper/hose locked up but the engine still was struggling even beyond that. Check Engine light came on but went off. Codes popped up 42 and 44 when I checked them. Code 42 suggests an issue with the ESC module and/or wires but they all look fine. 44 is the "lean exhaust" (O2 sensor?) code. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that I flow/flush the injectors (or something like that). Would that be my next step and, if so, how would I do that? Suggestions?

BTW - After the short drive, the coolant overflow tank was real murky....Flush #2 on the to do list.

jdumas

I flushed the system last night and when I turned the heater blower on there was a loud winding noise. Is this because I had the blower on high or could the the heater core just be plugged with crud (or both)? The coolant was a dark brown but lightened up until I turned the blower on high and then it went back to dark brown until I turned the blower back down. Also, should I be removing the plugs on the bottom of the block or should I just let the flush try to remove the old crap?

Elthesh

If I'm correct, when you turned the heater on you opened up a "new" section of the cooling system that hadn't yet been flushed. You should have a heater diverter valve that is powered by vacuum that blocks coolant flow to the heater core when not in use. You want to turn the heater back on to flush that junk out of the heater core and it's hoses.

I guess the loud noise could be the blower fan motor acting up. Could also be garbage in the motor. Since the motor is really easy to get to, turn the blower on, and listen under the hood right next to the motor which is on the passenger side, top side on the firewall.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

loud whining is most likely the blower moter on its last leg, or something caught in it. i would suggest hooking a hose up to the outlet of the heater core, disconnecting the inlet hose, and flushing the crap out of it. then flushing the rest of the cooling system with it bypassed. dont wanna flush crap back into it after all.

jdumas

I agree about the blower motor and will take it off this weekend. A new development is that the engine now backfires whether at idle or under load. I have checked the timing, and the plug wires are in great shape. So.....what could be causing it to backfire all of the sudden? Oh yeah....when it does backfire, it seems to be spraying something out the tailpipe. When it's not backfiring, there's a bit of white smoke. Thoughts?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

got a timing light? whats the timing showing on the balancer? back firing from the intake or exhaust?

jdumas

Yes, I have a light. I have checked the timing twice. The first time the light worked fine. The second time the light was intermittent. Both times the light indicated 3 notches to the left (pass side) of the the larger notch which I'm guessing is the 6 degress BTDC. The backfiring appears to be more from the exhaust than intake. When I switched the fuel pump, I had to disconnect the pipe between the cat and the muffler. The gasket on the flange connecting the pipe to the cat was toast and I have not replaced it yet. Would that cause the backfire? I know exhaust leaks can do that but I thought they were before the O2 sensor (I'm getting that code as well).

travis401

iTrader: (1)

backfiring out of the exhaust means the exhaust valve isnt closed when the spark plug goes off. either the timing is off, the cam isnt coordinated with the crank properly (jumped time) or you have a damaged valve/head.

jdumas

I'm going to replace the distributor cap and rotor tonight. I noticed that when I pulled the old distributor and rotor off, there seemed to be some up and down "play" in the distributor shaft. It wasn't a ton of play but I was surprised there was any at all. Is this normal? (I've heard differing opinions on this that go from no play all the way to an 1/8 of an inch.)

jdumas

Well the rotor and cap were a bust because none of the local stores had the right one in stock. I cleaned the contacts on the stock one and reinstalled it. The car still stumbles and backfires at idle through the exhaust with and occasional backfire through the maf. It is as bad (if not worse) when I rev the engine. I went to check the timing again and now the timing light only works intermittently. I thought it was my light so I tried a new one and that one wouldn't even light up at all. The backfiring is much worse when I disconnect the brown wire to use the timing light. Because I tried several times to get the light to register, the car was idling for a good 10 mins. I started to smell something burning and, when I looked under the car, the back half of the cat was RED HOT (a new cat was installed about 6,000 miles before the car was taken off the road - the invoice was in the glove box). I know they can get up there in temp but I have never seen one get red hot before. I'm kinda running out of options here and invite any suggestions. Are all signs pointing to the suspected stuck valve? There's alot of greyish blueish smoke coming out of the exhaust along with what looks like oil or gas drops when it backfires. Please send suggestions......thanks!

midias

Take off the valve cover and crank it over to see if you have a stuck valve stem.

jdumas

I have not done anything with engine valves before so this will be a learning experience. What would I be looking for specifically after pulling the valve cover off? Any precautions that I should take?