mike40sm2

Hi
Have big problems with this engine change??
I have a 1986 Camaro 305 tpi it has had thousands spent on bodywork to bring her up to show condition,
it was a 305 tpi but engine was on its way out so manage to get hold of a 1988 firebird tpi engine,
So after rebuilding that engine from scratch had it fitted BUT it will not fire up
Changed the ecm to the 88 one as you should.
We had to change couple wires on the loom at the distrib as the 305 was different.
We have spark, we have fuel pressure at 40 psi although drops off to 30 after 3 minutes just wont even attempt to fire even if we spray intake with engine start, am at a loss now do i just scrap it and start again ??? not sure i have the will or the money to start again

rrf321

iTrader: (2)

how about the distributor 180 off

mmadden55

This.

MadCelt

That. ESPECIALLY if it occasionally goes "KAPOW!" out the tail pipe when you are turning it over.



Have you verified spark? Fuel pressure?

mike40sm2

Nop been checked, did have new after market injectors so trying old ones now as could be air leaking in system??

mike40sm2

Yes have good spark check out fuel pressure but that could only be injectors or fuel regulator does not even pop and bang wish it did at least i feel better

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Have you tried the 305 Memcal the 88 one may have vats and would cut injector pulse

MadCelt

Good point on the VATS.

Also, if the injectors are pulsing you should be able to hear them or at least feel them 'click'. You can use a stethascope, a piece of hose held to an injector and your ear to listen better, or a wood dowel place gently against one will amplify the 'feel'. Or, you can use a multimeter by probing into the connecter and watch it to see if the voltage pulses as you turn it over.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

If the injectors are not pulsing double check your residing from the large cap to the remote coil. If the distributor is not seeing the reference there will be in injector pulse. You can also post the letters on your Memcal for vats identification.

mike40sm2

mmm guys have to look into that could be the problem
I brought a 88 firebird engine because was to after 88 the differences where bigger on TPI engines.

I will try pluging in the old 305 ecm see if it even trys to fire at least then i will know it's a vats problem?

Is the anyway to disconect the Vats ??

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Vats can be reprogramed out of the Memcal, if there is a paddler module and old key the resistance of the key could be measured and a corresponding resister could be installed in the wiring harness. Or a bypass module that sends a 30hz signal to the ECM simulating the pass key signal.

mike40sm2

Have tried old 305 ecm no joy
After some investigation found engine to be from a 87 Firebird as it has a 9th cold start injector which im sure the 88 does not have.
So don't think it's a Vats problem.
Driving me crazy just spent $3000 on engine bay respray and another $6000 + on engine rebuild all wasted!!!!!
Feel like jumping of a bridge

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

85-88 used cold start 9th injector 89 the memcal was reprogramed and eliminated it in the programing $6E. Man dont give up, go through the basics, compression, fuel and spark and make sure the timing is off. This is not a wasted effort.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

check the injectors for power, each bank is fused and they will pulse when the ecm grounds them.

MadCelt

Do NOT give up!

DO stop guessing and start verifying! You have an excellent source of info here. USE it! Search the forums, ask questions.

Get back to basics, go step by step. Got spark? Got fuel? Got air?

Pull your #1 plug and VERIFY TDC and timing. Turn over by hand until you or a helper feel the pressure at the #1 plug hole, then you KNOW you aren't 180 out.

Check pressure at fuel rail w/ gauge. Pressure good? Check injector pulse. Yes or no?

Throw timing light on the #1 plug wire for easy spark check. No strobe, no spark.

Check your cranking vacuum. A vacc guage hooked up while cranking should pull 5-8 PSI or so. If not you could have internal issues.

Cover the very basics, don't guess, verify, if you need a guage or tools get a loaner from the parts store. You get all the verified and we can help you better.

mike40sm2

Thank guys for the help

Went to see the car Saturday decided to go back to basic's,

Rolled my sleeves up and started on timing myself first, check timing and firing order it was way off???

Re timed myself and she fired up still have to put a timing light on her yet but she is running.

Do have a little knocking from front of engine but that could be timing or maybe valve settings will check it out later.

Cheers all

MadCelt

Cool!

Sometimes it's good to step back and just hit the proverbial reset button when you start getting frustrated. It's easy to miss things when you feel like you've tried everything. I have to step back and start over sometimes too, and usually that's when I figure out what's wrong. :-)

Since I can't hear the 'knock' I can't tell you what it is off course, but if it turns out adjusting the timing doesn't help, check oil level, check accessory brackets, etc. Don't forget to unplug the EST wire when adjusting timing!!

Good job!

mike40sm2

Cheers

mike40sm2

Still have big problem with this engine runs but very uneven will not run low down revs can not be driven running out of things to check changed thottle body not that she is all over the place

MadCelt

Check you IAC. Make sure it is operating properly, and clean. It controls the air that bypasses the throttle plate at idle. Also, check for vacuum leaks.

mike40sm2

Started going through stuff this morning
Checked out direction of rotor on this pontiac V8 engine first.
Now according to reliable web site rotor on a 1988 Pontiac turns counter clockwise
AS against the old chevy 305 engine that goes clockwise right

Get this Stripped off cap watched rotor to my amazement i have a 350 pontiac engine with the rotor going same way as Chevy clockwise

MadCelt

As it should. The Pontiac 305, 350 are SBCs. Clockwise rotation, firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. No diffrent than any other SBC, 305, 327, 350, 355, 383.... All the same. Your 'reliable' source just became unreliable... LOL. SOME Pontiac engines, made just for Pontiac, may spin opposite, but ALL factory SBC's spin clockwise.

There are several possibilites for it to do what it is doing, most likely it's a 'breathing' issue. Again, check for vacuum leaks (and check you vac pressure for fluctuation) and check your IAC. I'd also monitor fuel pressure, check for steady and within correct range.

If you can't get her to idle at all, try propping the throttle plate open just ever so slightly.

Firing order- http://boxwrench.net/specs/pont_265-455.htm

mike40sm2

Yes ok but if my rotor is turning wrong way my computer will be confused surely as the Ecm used is out of the 88 firebird which had the rotor turning the correct way counter clockwise.
What i am trying to get across here is when i got the engine out of the 88 firebird the rotor was turning counter clockwise as it should so the all sensors and ecm where fine.
Now i have the same engine but with the wrong cam fitted which is NOT the same turning wrong way so it must cause Ecm issues surely???

http://boxwrench.net/specs/chevy_sb.htm

http://boxwrench.net/specs/pont_265-455.htm

algershick

iTrader: (1)

What Madcelt is trying to tell you is that both the Camaro and Firebird models had the same 305 and 350 engines. They both use SBC (Small Block Chevy) motors. They both spin the same direction, they share the same RPO codes between the two.

The 4.9 liter, or 301, was the last Pontiac v8 in the Firebird, in 1981. When 1982 and the 3rd gen's were released, they began using the Chevy 305 "Corporate" V8.

Your ECM is also the same between the Camaro and Firebird. Perhaps you remember the engine spinning the wrong way before.

mike40sm2

This is driving me crazy!!!!!
Ok if you are saying that both chevy and pontiac engines are the same and rotors on both go clockwise
Why did it turn counter clockwise when i first go it??
Also this link must be false?
http://boxwrench.net/specs/pont_265-455.htm

algershick

iTrader: (1)

I don't think it did turn the other way when you first got it, you're remembering it wrong most likely.

The link is NOT wrong, it is correct for PONTIAC engines. You do NOT have a Pontiac engine, you have a CHEVROLET engine.

mike40sm2

NO i have a Pontiac engine.

Unless what you are saying is that the car i pulled this engine from which was a 1988 Pontiac Firebird TPI was not a true Pontiac because Pontiac fitted Chevy engines into there cars then.?

Have i got it right now??

algershick

iTrader: (1)

You are correct. There are no Pontiac V8's in these cars, they are all Chevy V8's. Your 1988 350 TPI is a Chevy engine.

MadCelt

Ah, so much confusion.

OK... Seriously, you are WAY over thinking this. IF you engine runs, at all, and it A) isn't blowing smoke out the exhaust or B) sounds like it full of gravel or something or C) backfiring like crazy, etc, chances are pretty good it's either a timing issue, a vaccuum issue, or your IAC... something pretty simple you are missing.

It's too bad you are half a world away, I would seriously offer to take your car for the weekend and fix it for you.

If you want this thing running right, my suggestion would be to start listening and performing the suggested tests, etc. The accumulated knowledge on this board is incredible, and I personal have 2 gen 3's, a 305 and a 350, that I keep running, and been through some major puzzling issues. And, to toot my own horn, they run well I might add. Thanks 3GOers! :wink:

Quit over thinking it. Get the car home or somewhere you can work on it at your liesure... if this person who did the work can't fix it right, why do they still have it? Get it somewhere more convenient. Put on your grubby cloths. Check the basics. Go from there.

First, I just noticed you said you changed a couple wires on the loom because the 305 was different from the 350? What wires? TPI 305 to TPI 350 the loom shouldn't change? Even going to a Vortec 350 and HSR or other aftermarket intake, etc, the loom stays the same if you do it right. You did keep the TPI right?

You have spark at least on plug wire 1, we know that much. Double check to make sure your plug wires are properly positioned on the distributor.

Double check timing. UNPLUG THE EST (this is a MUST DO!) when making timing adjustments.

Check for vaccum leaks. Check vacuum pressure, running and cranking. A LOT can be told from vaccuum pressure, even internal issues such as compression etc.

Check your IAC. Check TPS voltage/resistance.

Etc etc. Feel free to post and pressure #'s, fluctuations, voltage tests, resstance tests on sensors, etc and we can tell you what they mean.

Check fuel pressure

mike40sm2

Thanks have the car now anyway so will need to take my time with it.
Fuel presures where checked and were if i remember 40lbs dropping to about 35lbs
I have ordered some new parts from summit as this engine had stood for along time covered up in some guys shed in California before i shipped it over here,
Only wire had to change where the old chevy 305 had internal coil so just had that wire changed.

Yep think if i lived in America someone could help more, not that many people over here Know that much about the TPI set-up

I started on Distributor well that is 180% out which i assume is ok as long as i had the plug wire set but i am going to pull it and turn it so rotor is pointing at number 1 cylinder

Again the garage put old injectors back in as they thought new ones i got where the problem. but old injectors had been standing for a long time with dirt and dust getting in so will re install new injectors myself.
New distributor and rotor and spark plug leads purchased ready to be fitted.

As you can see i am trying thanks for ya help means a lot guys I'll keep you informed
Ps the camshaft i had fitted is on another thread if you wanted to check out what camshaft i Had fitted

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

your cam is way too big, don't run more that 224 unless you have means to do reprograming.

MadCelt

OK-

Distributor. The physical position does not matter, whether plug 1 is pointing straight at the firewall, or toward the engine, or toward the moon for that matter. all that matters is the position of the rotor to TDC and that at TDC the rotor points at plug 1. with the dizzy cap off, and plug 1 removed from the engine, either put a rubber plug in the spark plug hole or have a freind stick a finger in it unless you have long arms like me, I can stick a finger in it AND turn the motor by hand. Anyway, turn the engine by hand, watching the timing mark on the crank. When it starts to approach the TDC mark and pressure is felt or the rubber plug pops out, that is TDC. No pressure, that's 180 off on the engine.

Once you find TDC, look at the rotor. Wherever the rotor is pointing is at or very near where you should connect the #1 plug wire. Do that, and you will be able to set time w/ a light very easily.

Unplug your est (passenger side, by the heater blower, tan/black wire w/ black connecter, unplug it from itself). Set up your timing light, start car (or have someone crank as you check time). Set to 6* BTDC. Turn off car if running, reconnect EST, start car.

Is it better?

Remember-

2-4-6-8 front<---Passenger side --> rear
-----------
1-3-5-7 front<---Drivers side -->rear


Firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, clockwise.

I know this may seem like basic stuff, but it is EASY to make mistakes, especially when you don't do this stuff a lot. May I suggest marking both ends of you plug wires, and keeping something in your pocket to refer to for firing order?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

um did you see his bump stick Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 278/284, Lift .500/.510

MadCelt

I just went and looked at the thread. LOL.

Yes he needs to tune for that. Good grief. I had a mild cam in my Z's 305 prior to the 350 swap, and it caused issues. Holy crap. LOL.

Needs to get the software and adapters to read his data stream and log, and contact a good street tuner. Mine has done an awseome job for the Z, one reasonable flat price and unlimited new proms all year tailored to my street data until it's . He even sells all the stuff you need if you don't already have it, and will send a well-guessed 'starter' prom to start with to get on the road and start logging with. I was nervous doing a 'mail order tune' at first, but he did great!

mike40sm2

LOL Guys well at least i can still laugh!!!

I was worried about Cam but the guy that fitted it works for drag race company at Santapod raceway and he assured me that it would be ok.
Although he admits he does not know anything about TPI engines.
First Big mistake ah guys.
As for good Tuning firm over here they do not exsist can you PM me that guys contact details?
Could it be as simple as wrong camshaft then.? can camshaft be changed without removing engine

[IMG][/IMG]

MadCelt

Yes, sure, yes, yes.

Although 'wrong' camshaft isn't entirely accurate.... more like, wrong computer programming FOR that camshaft.

You can swap the cam without pulling the engine, you just have to pull the radiator and fans and get the timing cover off, etc.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

The plug wires on the dizzy cap are miss-labled...
Number 3 is were number 1 goes.
If thats the way the wires are, it will work but it isnt "correct".

MadCelt

OK don't confuse him any further. The only thing 'incorrect' about it is that it isn't where it was when it left the factory floor, and that precisely lengthed plug wires may not reach correctly, LOL. As far as functionality, the physical location of N0.1 has no bearing on anything as long as the order is correct from there. Doesn't affect performance, doesn't affect drivability, doesn't affect reliability.