Bruce89TA

Okay, so I've been reading up on the governor gear and how it works but I'm still confused as to some of the terminology.

Some people talk about the lighter side or heavier side or the primary or secondary side. In my governor, there are C weights on both sides and a heavy spring and a light spring, one on one side and one on the other.

It appears the outer weights are not supposed to be adjusted as the recalibration kit doesn't come with replacement outer weights. I've read that the outer weights govern low vehicle speed shifts and the inner weights govern high vehicle speed shifts.

I realize that this is mostly trial and error but there must be some method to the madness.

I'm trying to raise my shift points and I understand that I need to put in lighter weights. Centripetal force as tranny speed increases causes the weights to move outward actuating the governor valve and forcing a shift. Heavier weights cause this action to happen earlier, lighter weights the opposite.

So if I decrease the weight of one but not the other, I should get a higher shift point. If that's not high enough, do I put in the next lighter weight for the same side change the other one or does it not matter?

Once I get the right engine speed, then I start playing with the springs. Again, I have one light spring and a heavy spring. This one should be easier cause the light spring is the lightest and the heavy is the heaviest. If I need to go lighter, then I get a lighter spring for the heavy side or if I need to go heavier, then I get a heavier spring for the light side. No worries there. Heavier springs apparently group shifts tighter while lighter springs group shifts farther apart.

I've already replaced one of the original weights with the heaviest (but still a little lighter) weight that came with the B&M recalibration kit and in place of the original heavy spring, I put in the heaviest kit spring. What I have now is original C weight + heavy kit spring on one side and a kit heavy weight and kit light spring. Shift points have moved about 300-500 rpm's higher than before and shifting at part throttle feels like it shifts a little later.

So what's next? I plan on putting the next lighter weight in and leaving everything else the same. Probably tonight if I can. Anyone have any other advice?

Thanks in advance.

-Bruce

doc

I am going to need help on this too. I want to raise my shifts from 5200 RPM to 5600 to 5800 RPM. I am going to buy the B&M governor spring and weight kit from Summit Racing.

TunedPort 335

LOL, I too need help with this, my tranny shifts too high right now (5400+) I want it to shift around 5200.

greezemonkey

iTrader: (14)

Bruce89ta pretty much summed it up on how it works, I`m going to be adjusting mine soon also but he rasies a good ? about different wieght and springs on opposite sides, I have seen factory govners that had different size springs from one side to the other so I would guess that that would be okay to do. One way to find out right? Here is the best explanation I`ve seen on how it works http://www.dragracingonline.com/archives.html
Click on the link, then you need to select the october 2004 issue and half way down on the right you will see the article

Bruce89TA

Well, I dropped in the next lightest weight last night. The good news is it only takes me 10 minutes to jack up the car, switch out the weight and get my car driving again. And somewhere I read you'd lose a lot of tranny fluid when you pull the cap. It's nothing. Just enough to get the floor slick.. It's not even enough to fill half a shot glass.

For those of you who don't know, the B&M kit comes with springs from red to purple on spring rate, red being the lightest. Weights come in numbers from 1 to 6, 1 being the heaviest.

So, on to my findings. Now I've got a stock C-weight and the purple spring on one side (closest combo to stock) and the B&M "2" weight and red (one weight lighter than stock) on the other. My shift point moved up another 500 rpms (1st gear) and it's definitely holding each gear longer when I'm at part throttle. It holds 3rd for a lot longer than I'm expecting and I keep thinking the shifter is in "D" rather than "OD".

If I get a chance, I want swap the springs and run the "C" weight and red spring on one side and "2" weight and purple spring on the other just to see what happens.

So from stock governor, my tranny shifted at ~3500 rpms. When I swapped in the B&M parts, I got ~4000 rpms. Now with one lighter weight, ~4500. I wish I could get better numbers for the 2-3 shift and 3-4 shift but I'm doing this in the city and I'd rather not get a speeding ticket.

TunedPort 335

Bruce you got the B&M kit right? Is that the one in the Summit catalog for $29.95?? I was thinking about buying that soon

Bruce89TA

That's the one. It comes with instructions but it's not rocket surgery so it's not like they're needed.. Just helps you identify which springs are what by color, instead of checking the spring rates. Also comes with new pins that hold the weights to the governor body. Very convienent.

TunedPort 335

Cool, thanks alot man. So I guess in my case I would need the heavier weights to make it shift sooner?

Bruce89TA

Yes, you'll need heavier weights to make it shift sooner but if you do put in the new weights (one step heavier), I think it'd be too much and you'd overshoot your target shift point. From 5400 to 5200 you'll have to play around some with the springs as well, OR, you can take the next heavier weight and grind it down some. If you're lucky, the weight you have now won't correspond with the weight values in the kit and you can find one that is just a little heavier than the existing weight and that might be enough to give you 200 RPM less. Like it's been said before, it looks like it's all just trial and error.

Bruce89TA

Well, just as the kit says, lighter weights, later shift points, lighter springs, later shifts.

I tried out about 20 different combinations of springs and weights. If you're looking to raise your shift points, I'd recommend taking the side with the light spring and reducing the weight of it.

My original setup was stock "C" weights on both sides and one heavy spring and one light spring. With the B&M kit, the equivalent would have been #1 weight on both sides and the purple and red.

My current setup is #1 and blue and #4 and green. I have a 700R4 with a Transgo Shift kit and 3.23 gears. at WOT, I shift a little over 5000 (which I still need to tweak a little). Normal cruising, it will shift into 4th gear at 40mph.

The heavier weight governs more of where it's going to shift and the heavier spring should be on that weight. Basically, once the whole assembly starts spinning around, the heavier weight and spring contribute the constant force and the lighter weight and spring give it the last bit of force to actuate the governor valve. I tried putting in heavy weights and soft springs on both sides and at cruise, it wouldn't shift into 4th gear until 55mph. Having heavy weights and heavy springs makes the car shift into 4th gear at 35 mph whether at WOT or cruising.

I ran through a tank of gas to get a baseline for fuel efficiency and it looks like I've gained 1mpg from about 11-12 to 12-13. It's definately got more zip to it.

I figure when I got my tranny rebuilt the not so smart techs replaced the governor gear without remembering what i had in there originally. For those of you in the Dallas metroplex, don't go to Eagle Transmissions in Richardson, I even told them that the early shifting was due to the governor gear not being calibrated and they didn't do jack. They just kept trying to adjust the TV cable.

Good luck to all of you.

MikeH

iTrader: (10)

Thanks for the info... i swapped in a new tranny and had them install my governor from the old tranny. Thinking it would shift at the same points, it didnt. It shifted at 6300 for the 1-2 shift and 4th came in at 53 mph. Part throttle was over 4000 at heavy throttle this want to bad. But my motors peak is around 4900 i had it on a dyno to find out.

The IROC governor had the light weights on the out and inside. And the one i had them remove had the heavy weights. So i replaced just the inside weights of the IROC governor with the heavy weights from the other one. And it dropped the shifts to low. 4300 at wot and 2600 or so at part throttle . I did a little math, and thought that if i just swapped out one side for the heavier weight it should shift at 5300 for wot and 3700 or so for heavy part throttle. It DID and works great so far. No problems running a heaver inside weight on one side. It goes into 4th at 38-40 mph just cruising.

Fastime

http://www.dragracingonline.com/tech...vi_9-bm-1.html

87zjeff

iTrader: (4)

it was an 8 year old thread. he most likely has the governor taken care of....lol

Fastime

Yeah I reposted it for the rest of us .. like myself, and so you can click on the link instead of having to look for it ...

rusty vango

a lot of people rag on us for replying to old threads .i do it to put as much info out there as possible,because there are many many people who read this stuff looking for a answer to their current dilemma .so if someone stumbles upon a similar problem ,theyre not going to care that whatever was posted ever how many years ago.my point info,info,info that is what keeps our rapidly aging DDs alive.post on!!

Azrael91966669

thanks for that link it helped me understand the governor better

Zeromitch87

iTrader: (5)

good link, learned a bit more also

TheExaminer

Exactly. I'm reading this in 2015.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I have a 1976 th-400 transmission that I removed from a '76 corvette

chevy high performance mag. did a write up on years ago on the B&M the gov. cal. They used a chevelle th-400 and with the B&M # 5 and 6 weight, with yellow and orange springs they got a 6100 rpm shift point. They swapped the yellow spring to a green one and got a 6000 rpm shift

I used weights # 3 and 6 with yellow and orange springs and got a 6400 RPM shift

Sport88Camaro

Forgive me, but I'm a bit confused. Springs are for part throttle shift points? Weights are for WOT shift points?

IroczFan

so for a 86 IROC originally a 305 TPI car 700r4 I had the trans rebuilt he asked if I wanted the shift points changed I said no does shifting at 3-3500rpm 1-2 WOT sound normal?

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Been looking into Governors recently and even though this thread is VERY old,..... It's just about the only thread I could find on the web that confirmed what the original stock V8 Governor is. ( THANX BRUCE !!! ) The reference to the stock 'C' weight is exactly what I was looking for to confirm what I thought to be true.

First; Allow me to add this link to the work that someone else did while adjusting their 700R4 Governor calibration. He did a lot of work to get the settings he needed and it might help someone else in the future. ( since this TGO thread was repeatedly displayed while I was searching for 700R4 governor info on the web - others WILL hit it in the future. )

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/tuni...r4-216459.html

Here is a pic showing some stock 700R4 governors. This pic shows that the gear itself was various colors and the best look at the color shades. They all appear to be the same; same tooth count and same tooth pattern. The 6 governors on the left of the pic were all removed from various thirdgens, the 1 on the far right I'm not sure about. All of these governors use the same inner weights ( on both sides ) with various spring combinations. ( probably fine tuning based on stock engine/rear combinations )




The outer body of some show a 'C' and some show a symbol with a 'J' on it. I do not know what the difference is ( if any ) but because this stamp is on the governor body - I do not think it is relevant in any way. ( PLEASE - correct me if I am wrong ! )




This is a look at governors pulled from V8 cars. The rating on these is 4200-4600 @ WOT. A look at the internal side of the inner weights shows the "C" stamp that Bruce mentioned in his posts. There is also a 'large dimple' on each side of the 'C' casting.



This is a look at the stock V6 Governors that I pulled from thirdgen trannys. There is an 'E" cast on the inner weights and a 'small dimple' on each side of the 'E'. The rating on these units should be 5300 - 5800 depending on the fine tuning springs used.



This is the final example of a stock 700R4 governor I have. This one has been on the shelf for some time and I am not positive where it came from. Most likely a Thirdgen,... but it's possible that I pulled it from a 91 ( or so ) S10 Blazer 4.3 tranny OR an LT1 fourth Gen with 4L60. This is NOT a Corvette governor,.... those are easy to ID because of the type of outer weight that style uses. This one has the same outer weights as the Thirdgen units,...... but the inner weight is obviously much lighter than anything I've seen from a Thirdgen F-Body. My GUESS is that this will have a WOT shift setting around 6K RPMS. There is no casting to mention - but the shape of the inner weight is easy to ID.




I have very little knowledge about custom governor set-ups, but at least now I've got a good understanding of what/how the factory Thirdgen governors were set-up. At least now I can quickly ID a factory Governor ! I hope this info will help someone else that has questions about the stock governors our cars came with.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

I'll give you a on this info!
Great job, John

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

Thanx !

It took me a long time to figure out what I had in front of me while I was working this out and as I started cleaning up I figured it was better to write this down somewhere rather than just a couple notes on the box I stored the governors in. Maybe - just maybe ! - this post will save someone else from spending all that time searching for the same type of info.

Pro Built Automatics

Typical V8 governor has a round hole on the outside weight, .155" - .165" thickness inner weights. This is known as a 4,880 rpm - 5,200 rpm WOT shift setup. The thinner .115" inner weight with the same outside weight is the V6 in most cases. The Z28/TA governor has a skeleton outer weight (no hole), and a thin pointed inner weight (5,400 rpm - 5,600 rpm WOT Shift). The Corvette Hi-rpm setup has a round hole on the outside weight and a thin pointed inner weight (5,900 rpm - 6,100 rpm WOT Shift). The Diesel governor has a round hole on the outside weight, .185" thickness inner weights. The 4cyl has a round hole on the outside weight, and a flat .063" inner weight (apx. 6,000 rpm. If you want to make the part throttle shifts later, remove the weak spring here. A lot of V8 governors like this. A slightly later 2-1 downshift can occur also when doing this. Remember all the governors and valve bodies are matched to get the WOT shifts, not governor only. The 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 shift valves are what is matched to the governor to get the right part throttle and right WOT shift.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

The governor you describe as a corvette governor sounds/looks exactly like the governor I posted by itself above that I wasn't able to ID. ( round hole in outer weight with pointed inner weight. )


I always thought that this was the Vett Governor ?? (From the web-link I posted: )


At least 2 - probably all 4 - of the V8 governors I pictured in the group pic were removed from Z-28s. They were probably LG4 an auto TPI cars, but certainly Z28's. I've got to assume that this style was in them because they were not the higher RPM L69, manual TPI, or 350 cars. Dana; was the skeleton type governor you describe as "Z28/TA" specific governor to the higher RPM V8 engines ?

Pro Built Automatics

Yes, it is for the hi-rpm V8, not the standard V8.

skinny z

Great thread, back from the dead or otherwise. This is something I had been tinkering with but had lost track of what was installed where and when. At least now I can re-visit this modification and get some results.
Thanks all who've posted.
Shouldn't this be a sticky or something?

xwarp

In the '91 700r4 I rebuilt over Christmas, that is the same style weight governor in the transmission. This transmission is out of a '91 Camaro that was a 3.1.

That tranny I rebuilt, I put the Superior shift kit in, a corvette servo and the rear gear is 3.73

The TV cable was adjusted properly when installed and no adjustments were made afterwards.

It appears that my shift points are running about 10-12mph, about 30 and then 38 or so.

That seems kind of low on the part throttle.

Any suggestions?

Pro Built Automatics

The "easy way" is to remove the weaker of the two governor springs. DO NOT remove the stiffer of the two springs as it will make the part throttle shifts extremely late. The other way is to get the shift extender from Sonnax. TV Cable Corrector Kit. Part number AS1-01K

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I'm getting shifts too early at both WOT and part throttle. They occur about 4500 rpm at WOT, and at light throttle it's in 4th by 25 mph (3.73 gears).
What are you guys' suggestions for extending WOT shift points to 5000-5200 and delaying the light throttle shifts so it hits 4th somewhere around 35-40 mph?
TV cable is adjusted properly. I'm getting maximum valve travel at WOT.

I'm not looking for great precision here, just a quick and dirty, such as removing the light spring as Dana suggested and/or grinding down one or both of the weights.

skinny z

My 700 is behaving the opposite of yours. If I adjust the TV as specified, the situation is that it stays in the lower gear and at WOT doesn't shift even at the redline. I've chatted with Dana and while I haven't resolved the issue, we more or less determined that the mis-adjusted TV cable hasn't caused a transmission failure due to the .500" boost valve installed with the corresponding increase in line pressure across the board.
While it's been a while since I experimented with the governor, IIRC I have a unit that was spec'd for a Corvette. This would probably explain the extended shift points. Once I reassemble my engine, I'll get back into this and work with the weights and springs as discussed.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I intend to experiment over the next few days, and will post my results here.
My daughter bracket races this car, and there is too much delay/inconsistency between shifter action and actual shifts when shifting manually, so it needs to run in "D" or "OD".

But.....don't we all want to optimize the performance, bracket racing or not? ....lol

I believe the power peak should be around 5000 rpm, so even staying conservative with a 5000-5200 rpm shift point might ought to be a darn sight better than the 4500 rpm shifts it's doing now. Doing that combined with upcoming better weather might bump those 12.90's down a tenth or two

skinny z

I've manged to nail down the manual shifting part of it with the dual gate I have but that said, if I could get precise control over the automatic shifting, I'd do that.
My racing buddy has a 4L65E in his 10.9x Chevelle (454 LSX modified) and can dial in his shift points via his programmer. Now THAT'S the way to go. Is that your approach with the 4L60s I see in your signature?
Looking forward to your results.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yes, the 60E's are shifted via user-programmed PCM commands.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Well, I did as ProBuilt suggested, removed the weaker of the two springs.
That's the one with the fewer coils (NOT circled) on the left side of the governor in the foreground in this pic:



Free length of the removed spring is 3/4"

It successfully moved the part throttle shifts up a few mph. I'm happy with those now.
However, it appears to have done nothing to the WOT shifts.
From reading through this whole thread, I'm not quite sure if I should have expected some effect on WOT or not ?? Any help would be appreciated!
I'd like to bump the WOT shifts upward by about 500 rpm. Can this even be done with modifications to the governor, or is it mandatory to change shift valves in the valve body?

skinny z

A bump here in the hopes that Dana will jump in.




Not sure if the Sonnax will move the WOT shifts or not.

Amaro83

ok, I love this thread!!! I am also recalibrating my stock governor from my 83Z. Here is a little info on what I have. It's a 355 with a flat tappet 222/228 cam. We also completely rebuilt the 700r4. New everything inside as well as a corvette servo and the beast sun gear.I plan to use her as a DD as well as take her to our 1/8 mile strip and race too!! I have 3.73 gears as well. I also got the B&M kit. My resoning for doing this is to increase my shift points from 4000 to 5500. First attempt we put a #3 and a #4 weight and a yellow spring on 4 and orange on 3. WAY too high. Shifting at 6400 at WOT.
2nd attempt we put a #1 and #2 weights. 1-2 is still 6400. All the other shifts at WOT are fine. Everything is also fine when cruising.
I also use to be able to slide sideways aroumd corners and bark the tires going into 2nd. But that doesn't happen anymore since I started messing around with it. This is where I need your help. I'm at a loss now and I'm not real sure where to go from here?! Thank you all for starting this thread and keeping it going!! Looiking forward to your help!!

Azrael91966669

this may sound like a stupid response
but you re adding trans fluid to replace what is lost when pulling out the governor ?

another thing I also would used to be able to break tires loose going into 2nd that stopped once I replaced the tires

but also moving the shift point up can bring you above the tq peak when shifting remember if it drops into the lower gear at the tq peak its making more power and will spin or bark the tires

also did it used to do all this with the old trans and now wont with the new trans?

I ask as I had an 85 trans in my 91 for a bit that acted like a shift kit compared to my 91 trans it had much faster crisper shifts and the also the 85 trans governor shifted at 5500 in it and 6500 in the 91 trans

gm did a alot of different things during these years to the transmissions

skinny z

So, if I understand this correctly, in the picture below, the governor on the right (with a skeleton outer weight and pointed inner weights) is from a Z28. The other two are Corvette units (round hole in the outer weights and pointed inner weights).
Is there something in the springs that also defines their origins?
Although the two on the left appear similar, the springs are different. The governor with the blue gear is new as supplied by re-builder (last month).

I'm looking to lower the shift RPMs from what they were with the "Corvette" governor as it was installed in the transmission before the latest rebuild. (That would be the centre of the three.)

Pro Built Automatics

Number 1 & 2 are the same, just slightly different springs. This is mainly done for part throttle shifts due to different rear end gear ratios and slightly different variations in the 1-2, 2-3 & 3-4 shift valves and shift valve springs in the Corvette valve body.

skinny z

The part that confuses me is that the governor on the right, with the skeleton weight, appears to be lighter than the Corvette. Yet, the Corvette is rated at a higher RPM even though the weights are heavier.
That's contrary to the "light weights, later shifts, lighter springs, later shifts" explanation that was offered up.

Ultimately, it'll all come down to testing and tuning but to know what to expect as a baseline (as in which governor will lower shifts when compared to another governor) is a handy reference to have going in.
This 700 is full of new parts and I have no idea how it will compare to the old unit. Any calibrations I had are out the window now as I'm starting fresh.

Thanks for the input Pro Built.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I did some more "adjusting" to the governor, attempting to bump up the WOT shift points, so the kid can leave it in OD for bracket racing, AND hopefully run 12's in ALL weather

Keep in mind:
1. stock governor that came with the LG4.
2. with the 3.73 gears, 1-2 shift was just under 5000, 2-3 was a about 3800.
3. removal of the weaker spring resulted in acceptable part throttle shift points, but had little or no effect on WOT shift points.

So, I tried removing the stronger spring also, and......wala....1-2 shift is now at 6000, and 2-3 is at 5000 ! That should really help the ET's

That 6000 1-2 shift is a little higher than I'd like. Anyone with a better understanding / more experience with these contraptions have any suggestions on what further weight/spring tweak would bring that down a few hundred without also bringing down the 2-3 ? Or are those two shifts pretty much linked together?

For general driving around, this present setup is definitely not optimum. Taking off at a moderate rate, I need to back off the throttle a bit to "help" it make the 1-2 shift without revving out to 3500 at 1/4 throttle. The 2-3 shift at moderate acceleration is delayed just about right with the looser (2800 rpm) stall TC. Prior 2-3 upshift was much too early.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Great thread! I am getting excited about manipulating my stock 89 LB9 vert with 3:42 gears.

I also flushed and use Mobil 1 ATF which may have made some changes as well.

So if I want to raise the part throttle shift points, I would put in slightly lighter springs.

but

if I want to also reduce the WOT shift points (engine doesn't breathe), what would I do?

I am mainly after the part throttle points to make the car feel more sporty.

Side question: Are the governors symmetrical on both sides?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I doubt that will make any noticeable difference, except in very cold weather before it's warmed up.

Just remove the lightest spring.

Except for the springs, mine is.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Thanks. Do you mean replace the lightest spring? Isn't there only one on each side? If I remove one or both, can there be no spring on a side?

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Yes, there is one spring on each side.
No, don't replace; just remove the lighter one.
Yes, it's ok running with just the one spring. The springs have an additive effect on the the "plunger/valve" inside the governor.

Tootie Pang

iTrader: (2)

Got it thanks.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

Well, the good news: She bracket raced the car 3 days at Pontiac Nationals this past weekend at Norwalk, and the slowest pass the car made was a 13.01. Best was a 12.84. DA ranged from 1300 feet to 2100 feet. So, very happy with the results of the new shift points! It picked up the ET's by at least 2 tenths.
But..........still looking for help/experience/knowledge here to somehow bring those two shift points together. 6000 rpm is definitely on the high side of the powerband of the motor, AND honestly for a 260k mile non-rebuilt motor and valvesprings (IIRC, they're GM LT4 springs) picked for 5500 rpm at most, I'm a little uncomfortable with that 6000 rpm 1-2 shift. Would prefer 5500 for both shifts, but 5000 for the 2-3 isn't too far off from where it should be. Anybody? Do I have to get into the valvebody to alter that 1000 rpm difference in the shift points?

BHR

should not run without springs this is why your part throttle shifts are not optimal as you state

i have a z28 skeleton governor and VB what i noticed when i removed just the light weight spring that the 1-2 WOT shift was 6200 and the 2-3 was 5500 about the same gap your experiencing but with the stock light spring back in there both at 55ish

this tells me that the spring combo affects the gap between 1-2 and 2-3 WOT shift and going lighter or removing makes it wider

try the heaviest or second heaviest from the b&m kit which are purple and then blue for you heavy side as everyone that ive seen adjusting the 700r4 gov always starts with either blue or purple on the heavy side

then your going to have to trial and error the light side from the b&m kit there are only three that should be used for light side from light to heavy order red orange yellow

orange for my case was closest to stock if your stock light spring is close to the orange then imo you should go heavier to close the gap between WOT shifts once you closed the gap i would then reduce the weight of the inner weights equally i used a dremil on one of my RS 700r4 trans to go from 4700 to 5500 just by grinding the stock inner weights and leaving the springs alone

i also noticed that after grinding the inner weights also increased the spread at part throttle aswell as making 4th at part throttle happen a bit later

that trans also shifts at the same rpm 1-2 and 2-3 WOT even after weight was reduced on both inner weights this further proves to me that the springs affect the difference in WOT shifts