astrosurfer

Ok fellas
Been a while since posting.
Now that I finally got my title and tag all sorted.
I took my car for the first road trip today since engine rebuild and reinstall to the inspection station less than a couple blocks away.
It would not shift out of first gear unless I floored it and got to around 40 mph (speedo acting goofy 65 mph on or off). Then it was a very hard shift, quick and chirps the tires going into 2nd. car seems to have good power from take off and accelerates nicely.
Anyways it passed the inspection and all that stuff.
I was planning on bringing the car home to my house but did not want to do 3 miles in 1st gear or what it seemed like.
I did a bit of investigating and found that I had not connected the vac line on the tranny....so I connected this and out on the road I go again....no change.
Out comes the manual now. Adjusted the tv cable and checked fluid level..
Hit the road again and same result.
Now we go for completely resetting the linkage and all once again.
Still I have the same result.
Now....is it possible that I have not connected something when I put it all back in the hole or does it sound like a transmission problem.
I will add that when I drove it to where it is now there were no issues at all with the transmission but with the motor...hence the rebuild. NOTHING was touched on the transmission except the bolts holding it to the motor.
I was so looking forward to driving my baby for the first time today....oh well.
I'll add that I lost all the fluid when I pulled the motor and tranny...DUM DUM me forgot about the effect of tipping it all up and before I realised anything there was a whole lot of tranny fluid on the ground...as soon as that driveshaft popped out of the rear.
I thought I had done everything right putting it back.

I also add that there seems to be somewhat of a shuddering going on too.
New transmission mount to boot also before re-installation with motor.

I have read around a bit about problems and full throttle shifts however I'm hoping it's something I have missed upon re-install.
I openly admit to knowing absolutely nothing about transmissions, but I am way fast at learning stuff. after all it's just simple mechanics in a logical order right?
Any and all help is much appreciated.

THANKS

KNBlazer

check your governor... otherwise you'll have to take it to someone who knows transmissions, they'll most likely find a plugged valve body or some other minor detail...

astrosurfer

Tomorrow I find out what a governor is and how to check it. Perhaps how to repair or replace it.
I'm not convinced that I did everything right.
I'll put it on the ramps at weekend and get under and look around.
Thing is that I can't say 100% that it was working great since I've only driven it 3 miles but from what I recall it was smooth before I took it out with the motor.
Might be just as easy get another box.

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

i dont know of any vacuum hose on a 700r4, there is only the breather on top. i had a similar problem with mine. car sat for about a year while building a new engine. i found a broke accumulator spring when i installed the shift kit. i don't know exactly what fixed the problem but when i was done the problem was gone. then i had new problems from the shift kit. btw i don't recommend the B&M shift kit. its junk. the transgo is what everyone recommends.

Apeiron

There's no vacuum line on a 700R4.

KNBlazer

Your reply made me laugh a bit...

astrosurfer

no vac....so what's the pipe going from the back of the carb down the firewall and attached by the rubber hose near the bottom of the transmission? right beside the new tranny mount I put in. I know it's there since I did actually re-attach it and I'm not going crazy. Here is an autozone diagram of what I'm talking about just in case anyone needs reminding of the vac line going to the modulator.
besides that being re-connected it made no difference to shift...as stated I know zip about trannys.
I don't have the type of green a shop would charge to fix it.
What other vehicles did the 700r4 come in?
I have several breakers local and could call around.
I'll consider going MANUAL also....any input on that? And which vehicles use a compatible manual shift tranny.
Pull a part have a good deal to do a complete swap if I recall.
I still have not given up on my current trans though since there is much diagnosis to do yet.
Thanks

KNBlazer

Your Tranny is not electronic... I'll take a picture of my tranny and post it...


By any chance do you have a CAT? it could be plugged... but here are the pics of a 700R4 from my 87 Formula...

KNBlazer

Your Tranny is not electronic... I'll take a picture of my tranny and post it...

KNBlazer

I read your post again, how long was the Tranny with no fluid? most likely there is a plugged valve in the Valve body...

Batass

I had that same problem and took it the trans in for a rebuild, got it back and the opposite problem happened. Early and soft shifts. My tq converter was bad and that might have contributed to the initial problem. I installed the B&M kit and....it sucks. Didn't change much. Now I'm going with the transgo. If line pressure is then good, but shift points are off, I will have to play with the govenor.

I would recommend you getting a shift kit. Its cheaper than having a shop go over your trans. It will go over many of the possible problem areas and will tell you how to dissassemble and reassemble plus upgrade. Doing a line pressure test is a great idea I have learned. 30 bucks from bowtie overdrives for the gauge and 7 ft of pressure hose. Can't make it that cheap.

KNBlazer

You didn't ask them to beef it up? you'll probably be ok with a different servo and different governor... there's alot that can be done to the valve body without a shift kit, but rather with parts.... well at least that's what I was told...

astrosurfer

yes I do have a cat...
I doubt that would change things because it shifted fine when I drove it to it's current location. The motor merely has run for 4 hours since rebuild.
The trans sat well covered for about 2 months during the rebuild and install process without any of the fluid being replaced. How would that affect it?
if at all...
I have no idea if It's an electronic trans or not but I take good advice from here and if you say it is not then so be it...I will run with that info.
The pic I posted actually depicts my trans as I recall.
Sadly I am not at my car and cannot get at further information at this time however I'm thinking of going and getting it later and just hitting the high shifts to get it home...once it's rolling it shudders somewhat (did not do that prior to reinstall that I recall) but it was a short 3 mile drive to my wife's parents home.
As stated car pulls well and shows no sign of blocked cat in any way.
Just won't shift up without gunning it.
I know I need to learn my transmission and that's why I am here.
I am open to suggestions.

EDIT:
I kinda have it my head to give it a good whirl down the freeway to get the fluid flowing right into every nook and cranny, at the same time I'm afraid of doing damage at the same time??? would anyone suggest a couple of miles down the freeway to the next junction and back or not???

Batass

Its in a vehicle that only makes 300hp. Right now it has slightly low line pressure and doesn't downshift with throttle mashing.

Apeiron

Lots of transmissions do have vacuum modulators, but not 700R4s. What shape is your pan and how many bolts does it have?

astrosurfer

I'm pretty sure I read 700r4 on it when I had it out.....however I could be wrong.
SO if it's not that then what is it that reflects the image above.?? That is the exact tube I re-attached.
From what I recall it was stamped on the top. Again I could be wrong but I'm about 99% on it.

Well I went and got the car earlier. reset the TV once again....although I'm neither positive what it should feel like when it springs backit stops and then I can push the cable in about another 3/4 inch...I figure there's about 1.25 inches of springy action but at the bottom I say maybe another 0.75" of free movement. I have no clue what this means so please enlighten me someone.
My car ran way hot pushing this trans along the road...perhaps coz of the high rpm to drive or some other reason....I even had the fan running the whole time driving and still the temp went off the scale.
I'm a little tired of the problems with this motor and trans. Sadly I'm more money in this motor than I want to be...but it does not overheat when it's just running normally.
Any input on that appreciated.
I'll take note about the bolts etc tomorrow...it's too dark now to do it.
I'm sure it's a square pan though...Hmm I have a filter kit in the car....I'll go read that and count the gasket holes.

Thanks to all again.

edit...
ok I have 16 bolts on my pan and it's square.
I did take a couple of snaps with my cellphone camera but they did not come out well....trying to read a casting # on the housing but....
I'll post something more solid tomorrow.

Yuffie55

have you try to manel shift it ???? form 1,2,3,D ????

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The only RWD GM tranny I know of with a square pan and 16 bolts is the 700R4. I was thinking that maybe you had a TH350 in there but that pan has a corner cut on it and 13 bolts. That is somewhat like the picture you posted, a TH350 with a vacuum modulator. But it doesn't show the correct pan.

Note that the 700R4 does not have a vacuum modulator to it. It uses the TV cable for line pressure and shifting control. Important to set it correctly.

RBob.

astrosurfer

yes I am able to shift up from 1-2-3 but no D I am winging along at 3600 rpm at 60 mph (wife behind on freeway flashes me at 60 mph) no more upshift....lots of smoke out the rear..(possibly running rich, possibly oil...I seem to have some sort of leak now probably the same rocker gaskets I've changed already)...I'm a little cheesed off at this point and more than likely looking to do a 350 tpi swap with another trans...poss a 5 speed manual.....
My poor motor suffered tonight and I feel bad to put it through that but it was all in the course of learning I guess.
This car has learnt me alot...in ways I wish I had not as well as ways I am glad I did.

astrosurfer

Dude I swear my trans has the very same modulator on it...I have a photo I took merely a few minutes ago....in exactly the same place as that pic man....
Now I am really confused....let me try to put that here right now....this is from under my car where I found this horrendous oil leak too...so it's a bit dirty but it's definitely there.....

now I have no clue what it does so I cannot argue about it....but I sure can see it. I re-attached that hose yesterday...there is also a dirty 4 pin plug hanging...I see nowhere to plug it in though without putting the car on ramps to get right under.
now there is a possibility that the gasket is not right also....but the pan looks square.

thanks to all.

Apeiron

Are you sure that gasket fits that transmission?

That pan doesn't look too square, and there appears to be a spacer between the main body and the tailshaft housing. That looks like a TH350, which would also explain why there's nowhere to plug your 4 pin TCC connector in.

KNBlazer

I too, jump on board as saying that is a 350 or 400... don't know what the difference is between the two... but the previous owner did a swap.... the gasket you have, I take it you asked for it by model of your car and year... so if you haven't already replaced a gasket yourself, then there's the possibility that indeed it's a 350...

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

that's the same thing in my 85. a th350 with a special output shaft, spacer, and camaro 700r4 tail housing.

Apeiron

It's not a 400, the 400 has a pretty unique looking pan.

astrosurfer

Now that sir makes perfect sense....I know I saw 700r4 on it somewheres...I was beginning to doubt myself on i too....could you possibly explain the difference and is/was it a logical swap?
Also come to think I do recall seeing a 99 or so date on the torque converter in red paint pen.....Interesting.

I'm perfectly happy to submit to you guys' vast knowledge of these cars and now I strive to find a different answer but with the same problem.

Actually I'm not sure it fits at all...it came with the car when I bought it...however I did get a bunch of receipts in the car too...this was one of them and from memory it was bought by year/model. (also in answer to KNBlazer)
Also what does TCC mean?

Here to learn guys.....Thanks to all who have input.

Sadly I got home too late today to do anything......pics or nothing. Sorry.

Another thing from memory.....
Before I moved the car to my inlaws I did connect it to the computer and seen that the torque converter locked in the data....whether that was error or not I'm not sure....I was checking for closed loop and that information intrigued me...I still don't know what converter lock is and what it does.

edit:
I have gone and used google to find out what TCC and LOCK are

bcmag

are you sure vacuum line at modulator actually has manifold vacuum on it?if not could definitely cause late harsh shift.maybe mixed up hoses during swap?

astrosurfer

I have to say that I have no clue whether that hose has vacuum or not.
If I recall correctly that hose attaches directly to a metal pipe which travels up over the transmission and bolts to the rear of the carb...now it's been a while since I did all this so I'll need to go check my work over to refresh my memory.
I will check that out tomorrow if I get home with some daylight.
I appreciate the insight.
I'm just hoping I haven't upset my motor by heating up like that. I did not try to start her today.


edit:
I just looked at a pic from before motor removal with heads off
the metal pipe I mistook was from somewhere else.
I'll investigate.

Apeiron

The TH350 is an older 3 speed transmission without overdrive. They've got a reputation for being more robust than the 700R4 in stock form.

Someone probably bought it by year and model and then found out it didn't fit, so it stayed in the car.

That would have been the ECM trying to tell the TCC to lock, but your transmission doesn't have a TCC so it would have had no effect. The ECM has no way of knowing if the clutch has actually locked or not, so it wouldn't have set any codes.

astrosurfer

back with response to that one...
Apparently I did not reconnect that.
I was able to see that today.
And am struggling to find a pic with it connected.
I have it somewheres but for the life of me...I have taken a lot of pics during my quest on this car...LOL



Well as all that goes...I got nothing done today either.
I'm dying to find where that plugs up to and hoping I can perhaps solve this problem and get out for a drive at the weekend.

Once again thanks to you guys.
I love this site because you guys make it what it is, with all the knowledge around here it's no wonder folks on TGO forget to google for stuff about these cars.
Someone is usually around to save you hours of wading through forums with every link you get..... you know.....

It's just an awesome place to be a part of.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Dude, you've solved the problem now. All you need to do is hook the other end of that vacuum line to ANY source of constant manifold vacuum up on the intake manifold or carb. I used to have a 77 Camaro with a TH350, and yeah, when that modulator line comes off or loses vacuum, it shifts like a mad bastard and wayyy late! I would imagine you've probably got a hell of a vacuum leak going on wherever that line was hooked up before!

astrosurfer

well it seems to be not as easy as that...lol.
I have no vac leak because some silly person has put a ported vacuum switch there instead of a vacuum valve...I have no vacuum sucking from there at all. I've been pulling on this thing trying to free it with no joy.
I came inside to look online to get a new one and I find that it is in fact a ported vacuum switch...I'm thinking it's supposed to go in the water outlet to control the thermavac on the air intake which should actuate the hot air valve and the exhaust reroute or whatever that is.
So now i am looking for the correct part.
When I took out this switch I have strong suction from the hole behind the carb and it was actually hard to pull against it...from what I understand I'm supposed to hook it up there. With no vacuum there I cannot hook it up. seems pretty strong to suck on a small tube as the one going to the trans.
I'm searching for a part I cannot find.
Do I just need an adaptor or what?

bcmag

as long as you hook modulator to manifold vacuum source that is constant(no thermal switch control)youll be fine as far as trans goes.

Apeiron

That's probably the vacuum line for the EFE that someone's tried to use for the modulator. The modulator will need a vacuum line directly from the manifold.

astrosurfer

SOLVED
Due to the fine knowledge and willingness to share information and experience from you guys here....I have been able to solve the issue.
Albeit I had to go to my local STINE lumber and get some stuff to make a part.
I used a 3/8 to 1/4 galvanized adapter...1/4 to 1/4 brass street elbow....1/4 to 1/4 barb.
I created a vacuum conection with the 3 parts reduced to size for the hose going to the trans.
It shifts like it is supposed to I guess.
It was instantly noticable as I got out onto the road.
many many thanks to you guys here

Could a MOD please add SOLVED to the title...THANKS

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Congrats dude! The modulator doesn't care how much vacuum it gets, in fact, the more the better. Whoever rigged that up to the water neck thermal switch must've been an incredible halfwit! Lol.

astrosurfer

Well they did not put the vac line on the waterneck.....that would have shown at least some knowledge that it should connect to something....
Oh no...what these complete bafoons actually did was to screw a water outlet temp controlled vacuum switch into the vacuum port behind the carb. I have pics of this from way back and was going to post it up asking WTF is this...but at the time I did not.
It was only yesterday that I finally realised what had been done when I was trying to get vacuum from it....I pulled on that temp sensing end just convinced that it was a stuck plunger til I was red in the face...all the time knowing that this thing looks too new to be seized like that...only when I came inside to price a new one did I actually discover the truth. I felt kind of stupid then for all that pulling and puffing.
I spent a while trying to find the right part...even looked in my manual...but seeing as my car should have a 700r4...I can find no info.
So being a fairly smart guy...I took what I had to stine and did a bit of mix and match fannaegallin' and come home with a solution that works just fine.
Total cost was about $8.
An adapter to fit the edelbrock performer intake was around $15....I'm still winning from where I stand.
Again thanks to everyone who has given me insight/education here...past, present and future.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Oh I understood already that they didn't actually try to hook it up to the waterneck, but to take that gizmo and try to use it on the carb or the intake manifold just blows my mind.

astrosurfer

Mine too....sorry I misinterpreted your understanding of my mumblings....I rabbit on and forget myself sometimes.
I'm wondering what I'm going to find next...
It's been an enlightening experience so far.
I'm glad to be over this transmission issue for now though.

From my short drives so far I find the rear is loud and on right turns a rumble is much noticeable....
I'll need to investigate that and surely a new topic is going to arise altogether.

Gregzz4

Glad to hear it's fixed
I tried to get this Pic uploaded sooner..sorry it's no help now
I was going to suggest you use it to identify what tranny you have

astrosurfer

everything is of help.
If not for me now it might serve others in the future.
Thank you anyway for taking the time.

Gregzz4

So do you know what trans you have?

astrosurfer

well...according to the info here...I have a th350.
It cannot be the 700r4 as I originally thought....it has been changed at some point.
When and why, I am unaware.
I agree with the assumption up earlier about the 700r4 rear end on it because I definitely saw that on there while it was out. Just cannot remember where I saw it.
I do also know that I need a 700R4 for fuel economy...I'll be looking to pick one of those up when I can. Possibly one I can rebuild and learn on. I am keen to give new things a try. I'm smart with things like taking apart and rebuilding.
It will be a wonderful experience for me and I'm quite looking forward to it. However finding a good one not in need of repair would work too.

Gregzz4

A 700R4 would give you faster starts off the line as the gears are a bit smaller than a TH350
Plus it has an overdrive gear that gives you .7:1 ratio, so it's an overdrive gear
The 700 got it's name, according to my builder buddy, because it can handle 700 Newton Meters of torque, which is over 500 foot pounds.
That doesn't mean it will handle the same kind of HP, but you can build them to be very strong
Lastly, building a 700R4 at home can be tricky, but you can do it
Do LOTS of reading
I had mine built as I wanted it to work the first time and wanted an install warranty
Don't be scared, be informed

astrosurfer

well it's not a horsepower thing for me.
Only my love of the car.
I do intend to read lots before I open up a transmission so that I know what's going on before I get into it. I'll need to understand it first. Right now all I know is that I pull the lever to D and go. I got the motor side down pat. Never fooled with a trans.

Batass

That trans can't take 700 ft/lbs under normal conditions.

If you really want good economy consider a manual trans. A t5 could be done cheap and will hold under low power. Its also a lot more fun, makes it FEEL faster, and cheap to maintain and repair.

Gregzz4

I didn't say 700ft/lbs

astrosurfer

700 newtons is what you said....why they still use newtons is beyond me....actually why USA is still using standard and not metric I'll never understand.
Anyways...
I decided to take the ol' girl to work today....here's how it went.
My speedo cable has apparently took a crap or it's not back in line properly so I'm only guessing that I was doing the speed limit or close in the morning traffic....
So I'm winging along assumably at 40 mph at 2000 rpm....I'm literally watching my gauge fall.
After about 12 miles I decided to pull into a circle K to pick up a drink and my coolant bottle is bubbling over.....I'm now apparently peeing oil from the back of my valve covers again.....(I redone the gaskets about 50 miles ago with rubber ones...there's a possibility that previous owner has warped the covers...but something is not right)...that needs re-investigating. I have another set of valve covers I am going to use...I want to paint them first though.
I can't take this 3 speed trans...if not just mentally it is also financially. I calculate GPM not MPG. It also has me wondering how I can trim out the fuel.
The exhaust makes the gravel under it all sooty black...I'm sort of convinced it's running way too rich. There's no telling what any previous owners have done to try and get performance from her....and I'm not interested in that so it's an economy route for me. I know it's going to cost money for all I need but I have to be happy after all. It's a me thing.
So I've talked to the bank manager/wife and I've agreed that I'm looking to go with a 350 motor and 4 speed auto or a standard. It's my car and it needs what it needs....
I want to go stick shift....I miss that fun from my life before USA. Many people say it's no fun after a while...but if it's all you've known for 20 yrs you tend to miss it. I find automatic is nice and easy but it's really just being lazy and catering to the undereducated (once again just my opinion).....and whoever says stick is a pain but they manually change an auto is defeating the purpose...IMO.

Apeiron

That's not true, numbering was arbitrary when it came to the 700. The latest mechanical descendent of the 700 is the 4L65E, and it's still only good to 450N or so. Even in the new nomenclature, the "strength" field is only relative and doesn't correspond directly to any particular torque rating.

Gallileo60

What is the 4 pin plug for...Mine was disconnected...

skirkland1980

iTrader: (2)

the 4 pin plug is for torque converter lockup.